Oppositionless

Daniel Ingram: Psychedelics, Meditation and enlightenment

116 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No human will ever naturally have the degree of consciousness possible via 5-MeO-DMT for me.

That I can accept but what I can't is simply going back to your regular state and not being able to attain/embody a nondual state on the natch at all that a lot of teachers have; even if it's not on a 5-meo level. 

I guess what I'm talking about here is more just human development as a whole, that to rely on peak experiences for understanding in the long term doesn't seam feasible, and that there is something of genuine value to experiencing the absolute in this moment. I am correct in saying enlightenment itself isn't an experience but the source of all experience? Maybe this is the point in time where the meditative and psychonaut path start to diverge. 

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1 hour ago, Free Mind said:

How would you describe the difference between the first time you broke through on 25+ mgs of 5meo vs now on the same dose? 

Very different. The understanding is much deeper now after years of integrating many different facets and insights of awakening.

Now the awakening is much fuller. Like a TOTAL understanding of everything. Now it's like seeing a tree from all angles at once whereas before it was like seeing a tree from single angles, which are to be pieced together over the years.

1 hour ago, Ry4n said:

what I can't is simply going back to your regular state and not being able to attain/embody a nondual state on the natch at all that a lot of teachers have; even if it's not on a 5-meo level.

Well, that's technically irrelevant. Consciousness is consciousness regardless of how long it lasts.

Of course it is nice to increase your baseline level of consciousness, but there is zero require to do so, and doing so does not guarantee full consciousness.

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I guess what I'm talking about here is more just human development as a whole, that to rely on peak experiences for understanding in the long term doesn't seam feasible, and that there is something of genuine value to experiencing the absolute in this moment.

Again, I'm not saying that you should limit yourself to peak experiences. By all means build up your baseline. But your baseline will never match what is accessible during a peak. And you baseline will never grant you enough understanding to fully understand what God is.

The reason meditation and self-inquiry teachers stress baseline so much is because they don't have anything else to compare it with.

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I am correct in saying enlightenment itself isn't an experience but the source of all experience? Maybe this is the point in time where the meditative and psychonaut path start to diverge. 

It's simply a high degree of consciousness. And consciousness can become infinite conscious of itself.

My concern has always been consciousness and understanding. So that's what I care about most. I basically don't care about anything else in life but understanding of reality. So now I've reached a stage where I have a complete understanding of the structure of reality, minus the niggley minutia and I have been infinitely conscious.

It just is what it is. If you don't want to become infinitely conscious, if you don't want to understand, no one will force you. But just know that it is possible. I have done it.

If your goal is to escape suffering, or be eternally blissed out, or to become saintly, that's a very different matter. I make no such claims for myself. Perhaps I will attain those things in the future, but regardless of whether I do or not, it does not affect the fact of my understanding and having been infinitely conscious.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If your goal is to escape suffering, or be eternally blissed out, or to become saintly, that's a very different matter. I make no such claims for myself.

What role do you think psychidelics play in this respect. You have experience with psychs in exploring reality and gaining insights etc, but what do you think about the role of psychs to deal with more human-level stuff. Like self esteem, personality disorders, blockages etc

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8 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

but what do you think about the role of psychs to deal with more human-level stuff. Like self esteem, personality disorders, blockages etc

Oh, they are perhaps even better for that purpose. You can use psychedelics to accomplish some crazy deep healing of psychological trauma and wounds.

Not long ago I had this crazy experience where I became my own father and healed some deep baggage from my childhood which simply would not be possible otherwise or through any kind of talk therapy.

I never had a lot of trauma so I mostly don't use psychedelics for that. But many people would benefit enormously from it. It could save hundreds of thousands of people from depression, rage, self-hate, abuse, and suicide.

Once you're able to access states of infinite love, the healing potential for psychological trauma is unmatched.

If psychedelics were widely available, talk therapists would be out of a job. So would gurus.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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@Leo Gura Fair enough, best of luck to you.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Oh, they are perhaps even better for that purpose.

Agreed, LSD was deeply therapeutic for me. Also had a similar experience of living life through other's perspective, I don't think it's possible to experience a deeper degree of empathy than that. Powerful

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@Leo Gura if your goal is to understand, what could possibly be more important than the source of all experience, or the Truth. 

What if the levels of consciousness you are talking about is something completely different from what traditions are pointing at, and if that is the case how can you say you are above it?.. Above something you may never been serious enough to happen ?

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1 hour ago, dvdas said:

@Leo Gura if your goal is to understand, what could possibly be more important than the source of all experience, or the Truth.

Truth is exactly what I'm talking about.

Experience IS Truth. The source of everything is itself.

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What if the levels of consciousness you are talking about is something completely different from what traditions are pointing at, and if that is the case how can you say you are above it?.. Above something you may never been serious enough to happen ?

Yes, different. Higher.

I can say I've gone above it because I imagine all humans, all traditions, all knowledge, all worlds, all teachings, all beings.

I imagine everything that could possibly exist. The end.

There can be no teaching of Infinite Consciousness. The only being in the Universe who can understand Infinite Consciousness is YOU -- God. No human can ever teach God to God. It's a joke to even try. All of God's power is required to understand itself. When this happens, no humans will remain because they are all imaginary.

If you are still looking to humans, schools, or teaching to understand yourself, you don't understand yourself. It's as foolish as God searching the universe for a book to teach him about himself.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But keep in mind, 5-MeO-DMT does not work on all people equally. For me, personally, it produces a level of consciousness that no human naturally has access to, I don't care how much they've meditated.

How can you be so certain?

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Daniel Ingram is definitely in a sort of Buddhist paradigm lock, but if you're a spiritual seeker you'd be interested to know that what he "has" is some undoubtedly profound, mind-blowing skill in meditation. He can enter 8th jhana at will by just closing his eyes and inclining his mind to the place that's neither perceiving nor not-perceiving. You don't quite get to where he is without years of countless 10-90 day meditation retreats though.

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5 hours ago, Meister_Eckhart said:

How can you be so certain?

Infinite Consciousness.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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   Does this all hinge on having alignment to some values you have?

   For example, we could say Daniel Ingram's success in meditation comes from adopting and aligning whatever values he learned from Buddhism to fuel his mastery of meditation. Or we could take Bruce Lee's success in movie making, fitness and martial arts as the result of him taking on some outer values, aligning with them, and either keeping some and losing some values until he's left with the ones that mostly fuel his energy towards fitness, martial arts and movie making.

   What I'm saying is, because of discovering whatever value you have, all the actions that follow are from that. Because Leo values understanding and truth, he got to do psychedelics, spiritual work, consciousness work and continues to go deeper, because he values understanding. So reall, how much of his or anyone's success boils down to discovering what you value most firstly?

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You will never discover Truth unless it's your top value.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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@Leo Gura

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You will never discover Truth unless it's your top value.

   I value things differently, and my top ideals aren't Truth, but hey, I'll probably change it later.

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4 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Leo Gura

   I value things differently, and my top ideals aren't Truth, but hey, I'll probably change it later.

Top values is relative construct. 

What you want... is what I want... which is what leo wants... which is what Trump wants... which is what your mum wants... which is what your friends want... which is what a bird wants... which is what a single cellular organism wants.

What we all want(including you) is not an object, noun, thing, concept, layer of abstraction, liberation or freedom or all those silly spiritual concepts.

What we all want can only be felt. But not spoken about or known or understood or dissected or broken down or reduced. But we all aren't wise enough to see that, so we break it down into lots of money, love, food... and even "truth".

And saying "I'll probably change it later" is falling for that exact mistake.

When Leo says you'll never discover truth unless its your top value, if he's speaking from wisdom(which maybe he's speaking from delusion IDK) what he's actually saying is you'll never get what you want unless you want the think that can only be felt but not labelled a word or concept...

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@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You will never discover Truth unless it's your top value.

This sounds ideological to me..

What if Truth is my number #2 value? And i guess if you take 5meo , you can discover Truth no matter what your values are.

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12 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

What if Truth is my number #2 value?

Then your #1 value is falsehood. So that's what you'll get.

You see... Truth is not just a value like all other values. Truth is the only thing that exists. So if you don't value it, you're fucked forever.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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@Leo Gura

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Then your #1 value is falsehood. So that's what you'll get.

You see... Truth is not just a value like all other values. Truth is the only thing that exists. So if you don't value it, you're fucked forever.

That's a solid explanation! I have to admit..

 

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8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Then your #1 value is falsehood. So that's what you'll get.

You see... Truth is not just a value like all other values. Truth is the only thing that exists. So if you don't value it, you're fucked forever.

in your logic if Truth is only thing that exist, how is falsehood not Truth. :)

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