My Very Good Christian Friend...

[Dodo]

of 10 years just had an extremely serious egoic reaction as we were having a deep conversation about Truth and he is seriously fundamentalist about his religious beliefs.

In few words: After I guided him to see that there is a constant consciousness/awareness, because he knows our conversation is happening , whether he agrees with what I'm saying or not. (I gave him way more details and clear pointers in our language which are even more clear than the english pointers as its my native language) I also said the "Know thyself" phrase of Jesus as I believe that to be an invitation to self inquiry and asked him if he is honest about whether he knows who he is. 

He immediately asked me whether I know this is a fact for sure and whether I am willing to be open to the possibility that I am wrong. I told him that I cannot be wrong about this, because I know that we are having this conversation and it was the same me that knew my experience 10 years ago, even though everything else has changed. 

I told him that this is not my belief, but a seeing and a noticing, rather than my belief system. I just know that I know, it's kind of a hard fact. I don't necessarily know WHAT I am, but I know THAT I am. 

He literally kept repeating the question, telling me that I don't understand his question. He kept telling me that if Im not willing to admit that I am wrong about being aware, then our friendship is over. I told him that he is asking me to lie to him, because I cannot possibly not be aware right now, otherwise I would not know that we are having the conversation. He thought I was coming from a mental position rather than the direct seeing that right now we are conscious of this. I told him that I cannot doubt this. 

He unfriended me and told me that he feels disgusted and that we were friends for 10 years and I am doing this to him... As if I was telling him something so blasphemous!! What the heck is in that bible??  What is this brainwashing? He wasn't even open to look for himself the experience I am pointing at, he was just stuck on the mental thinking that I was telling him some belief system that I have and not a direct seeing.

We are very close friends from school but I'm afraid what this Christianity sect is doing to his mind, it really feels like he's brainwashed or something. It felt like I put my hand in the hornets nest by trying to show him something that he cannot doubt, because even the doubt is known. 

Do you have any similar experiences with fundamentalists? 

 

PS: He friended me back, as I explained to him that my view is unshakable just like his Christianity belief, so I dont see why he is having such reaction. The previous day he was basically telling me (more or less) how I am deluded because I am not following the Bible and that it is the one and only Truth.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Dodo

[SoonHei]

oh yes. quite a few experiences. i have found over time that unless the other is ready to listen, there's no luck

 

the CUP IS FULL so to speak. nothing will be captured.

all it ends up being is a tennis match. back n forth. no point gained because the other is simply waiting for their turn to speak and reply

 

the moment you see that it's pointless, you yourself will stop... it will be like seeing that you're talking in english and trying to expalin something to someone who only speaks cantonese for example

gonna go nowhere.

they will come to you when they have emptied their cup on their own. just give it time, it will evaporate the tea in the cup if they don't dump it themsevles. then, they are ready. when they come asking. then the question is asked and there is nobody there waiting to reply. there is openness, silence, listening, waiting... waiting to eat, consume, understand. then you will have success. otherwise, you're just playing a back n forth. save that energy champ  

[wavydude]

When you confront egotistical person's beliefes they got two choices ether accept that they don't know and can be wrong or deny everything and do all they can to stay in theirs belief system, they usually choose the latter.

[Dodo]

14 minutes ago, wavydude said:

When you confront egotistical person's beliefes they got two choices ether accept that they don't know and can be wrong or deny everything and do all they can to stay in theirs belief system, they usually choose the latter.

@SoonHei

Yeah lol! He also told me that Eckhart Tolle is a charlatan and is "attacking people" just to deny the isness of the present moment. It was almost as if our chat was a fight between the heart and the mind that cannot center itself in the moment.

He told me that the heart is not to be trusted, because it is a sinner's heart and was saying how 2000 years of revelation written in the bible cannot be wrong and he was constantly denying any quotes from Jesus which in any way point to the present moment or consciousness, by saying that it is used "out of context" and that I only take what I like to fit my agenda. 

I told him timeless now is way more powerful than 2000 years of conditioning and that the realm beyond space and time (which he does believe in) can not be encapsulated even by 2000 years as 2000 years is nothing compared to the eternal 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Dodo

[wavydude]

You can't really do much about it and the more you will try to convince him the more he will be stuck in his beliefs. 

Probably the best you can't do is to say that you disagree with him but you accept him the way he is and you don't want this stuff to destroy yours friendships.

[Dodo]

10 minutes ago, wavydude said:

You can't really do much about it and the more you will try to convince him the more he will be stuck in his beliefs. 

Probably the best you can't do is to say that you disagree with him but you accept him the way he is and you don't want this stuff to destroy yours friendships.

Yeah but I think I am being direct enough because I kind of know things like " The truth shall set you free" and he is stuck in belief so he might see what this points to. He takes the scripture for truth.  

He told me that for every paper tower I give him, he makes a castle made of rock or something of that sort, so I told him that no castle that he makes can be bigger than the space in which it appears. lol! 

I mean from my point of view I dont want my friend to be stuck with this close mindedness, but on the other hand I feel like a jerk for doing this as if Im trying to come out right. I am not really , I want to help him. Maybe he doesn't need help. Oh well! Whatever happens happens, I give that also to the isness.

thankfully I can share with someone, I can only imagine someone in the old days who was surrounded by fundamentalists and had a direct experience... For one, he would most likely be put on the cross... In the name of Jesus...! How twisted...  

 

Sorry if I rant a bit, my mind  was a bit rattled by this encounter. Need to center myself  and get more space in <3 love you guys and love the mind-guys too (for the challenge) ! 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Dodo

[SoonHei]

@Dodo lol yeah... it's just on a totally different level. just won't click for them... you can just send your blessings and love from compassion

what's also amazing to note is that from his POV - he is speaking what to him feels so real and true. i have had similar encounters where the other was deeply trying to "save me" (his words) and became quite emotional because he did not want me to suffer consequences later in after-life due to my false views

 

gotta love those CHALLENGES as you say

 

 

[Frenk]

Yeah man don't worry about this. At least you can talk with him. I cannot even talk to my muslim friends about these topics cause the outcome won't be good. 

[Adamq8]

@SoonHei +1 very true, people won't listen and look for themselves when they are locked so hard in their views.

And my experience is that people are not so interested about spirituality, or what existence is and so forth, they just go about living their life somehow not thinking about deep stuff.

[SoonHei]

@Adamq8 indeed. most will remain in comfort zone, not knowing it's temporary...

most are in a position where they are on the 10th floor of a building and there is a fire on the 3rd or 4th floor.. a fire that's rising up and will eventually reach the 10th floor... but most do not act until the floor gets warm.

those who act earlier, get their wings sooner

[Someone here]

Your friend doesn't exist. You are talking to a conditioned programmed meat bag. So ofcourse no matter what you say to him.. he will keep mindlessly blabbering the content of his Christian neurons. 

The mistake is you think there are "true" ideas and "false" ideas .  Your second mistake is you think there is an actual entity (person) that holds ideas rather than just ideas.  The third mistake is you think you should convince him with your nonsense. And that this matters in any way at all. 

[seeking_brilliance]

You're honestly lucky if you can even get an unconscious Christian to meditate, even though it's mentioned often the bible. We were taught that meditation was something they did a long time ago and was no longer necessary, or that it's simply better to pray. The concept is so alien to them, and they rely so heavily on God to tell them what to do and what to think. 

[Dodo]

28 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Your friend doesn't exist. You are talking to a conditioned programmed meat bag. So ofcourse no matter what you say to him.. he will keep mindlessly blabbering the content of his Christian neurons. 

The mistake is you think there are "true" ideas and "false" ideas .  Your second mistake is you think there is an actual entity (person) that holds ideas rather than just ideas.  The third mistake is you think you should convince him with your nonsense. And that this matters in any way at all. 

There are a lot of poignant pointers in Christianity. Dont throw it out as useless because of the Dogma. It is filled with Truth and the sincere scholar will be able to unravel the mystery. Perhaps. I am not all knowing, just my feeling. 

I was not trying to convince him, and it was part of a deeper discussion. So it was just the natural flow to show him what my standard for Truth is and I did it in the most clear and anti-dogmatic way possible. 

My point was not to confuse, but to see if he is able to accept the truth of something obvious if shown. He had refused the present moment as he said that its just a moment in time and goes away and its not important,  even though i told him he is there when he prays.

We were talking about the timeless place etc... Its a long story. But many of the things he was saying were completely inline with Truth, just from different perspective.  So I wanted to guide him to see the page, rather than the letters and to not pledge allegiance to the symbols, but to what the symbols point to. And not to think because he read about trees that he can know trees, its different in direct experience. 

Like a tree points to a ?,  the tree doesn't care how you call it. In the same way i tried to explain that God /consciousness does not care what label you put on it as long as you put your allegiance in it and be absorbed in It. I was trying to unite him with God/what is,  to introduce him to mysticism. 

Failed. But perhaps the seeds are sawn.

 

[Nahm]

The trap of I am so aware that I am not aware. 

[Osaid]

The ego got defensive when you threatened it? shocker

[Leo Gura]

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."

-- Oliver Wendell Holms

Stop associating with bigots.

[mandyjw]

Fear and trying to outsmart the devil drives fundamentalism. It looks ridiculous from the outside looking in cause it's like a dog barking and growling at itself in a mirror. But your view from the outside looking in is not really a view at all. If we react to a reaction out of fear and misunderstanding, we are the fear and misunderstanding. We are the dog in the mirror. 

[SpaceLaika01]

Typical of ego clinging to beliefs. It is all he has. It is all he knows. Simply understand that if you were him you'd do the same, then forgive him.

[Byun Sean]

@Dodo

I have many similar experiences like this. 

When you try to convince a person with a concretized/ closed minded worldview to convert to your ideology things will go south very quickly since worldview is attached to our sense of survival.

Your view may be true for you but as far as his point of view goes, its all beliefs and nonsense the exact same way you view his christianity.

He doesn't have direct experience of the things you speak of. From his point of view, your talking complete nonsense.

 

On my journey, I've found it helpful to only give my advice to people who ask for it and are open minded. I've found that people change and grow on their own time and trying to force anyone to grow is ineffective.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Byun Sean

[abrakamowse]

I think the problem is that people in general (me included some time ago) want to have something external which gives them direction or tell them the truth.

So, in the case of the christians, they think that if you read the Bible the truth is written there and you will have all the answers there. But what they don't understand is that the same text can be interpreted in many ways. So if you don't interpret the text in certain way then you are heretic or a devil or whatever...

They have to understand that what is written in the Bible is just a guide, not something to follow word by word, and that everything has meanings beyond what they can understand, the Bible is written in parables. They took all the meaning textually and that creates so much confusion.

And on top of that, they feel that what the bible says is about a physical world, like if you are going to resurrect they think your body will live again, that Heaven is physical, that the Kingdom of Heaven is going to be on earth in a physical way. They are not open to other ideas or interpretations.

Is so sad really... that a so powerful message is being diluted because of a bunch of people who call themselves "Christians". They are clearly not very Christians IMO.