Leo's toxic rhetoric and an inner conflict

[Fran11]

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

This is part of the challenge of zooming in and zooming out. Each person has an ability range and preference for zooming in and out. It can be difficult of zoom out-ers to communicate with zoom in-ers. When a zoom out-er zooms in - it's important that they use phrases like "x is part of the problem", "x contributes to the problem" etc.

I like it, that would help making the communication more effective.

And one when one is on the other side, I feel it's healthy to give the other person the benefit of the doubt and asking him/her views on the matter instead of projecting them.

The problem is that the more Tier 1 one's thinking is, the more likely one is to separate people and perspectives using simplistic binary categories ("people are either racists or not-racist, either conservatives or liberals, pro-lockdown or anti-lockdown", etc.)

And also more likely to misunderstand multiple-POVs analysis and the difference beetween talking from a zoomed-in or a zoomed-out .

Edited October 10, 2020 by Fran11

[Nahm]

@Martin123

You blatantly (or rather, said he ‘blatantly victim shamed’) accused someone of victim shaming (Leo) who explained that he did not, and though I might have missed it, I didn’t see any reply from you. I’m curious, have you realized you were wrong? If so, was Leo the victim in this scenario...does that make you ‘a villain’? We’re you victim shaming him?  Also, does it occur to you an apology is appropriate if this is the case? Just curious. 

[wakeup]

For someone who has been a long time lurker, on and off, I 100% agree with OP's post. In fact, I don't think you are in the minority and more people than you think have came to this realization. 

Leo is one of the teachers that does not embody his teachings. People that are conscious enough - can see it from a mile away, just from his energy when watching his videos, in other words, the energy doesn't match the words. The arrogant and careless posts that he makes, is another one of many factors that has already been pointed out.

When it comes to mods, there is a clear conflict of interest at play. Why do you never see them criticize and call Leo out? 

Forestluv has been one of his biggest enablers and defenders - he goes very deep into the meta-analysis and is completely blind when it comes to Leo.

To OP and to others that feel the same - consider that you may have outgrown this teacher. The forum can be enjoyed with interacting other like minded people, but it doesn't mean that you have to follow LEO anymore.

While I will always be grateful for the knowledge that I gained from LEO's older videos - I will not be a blind follower. And you shouldn't be either.

Also, LEO's response to Frank Yang's vid was another giveaway.

Part of the spiritual work is learning how to be authentic and expressing your opinion honestly - no matter the consequences. I hope that one day more people like you will come forward, which in turn will help LEO realize his blindspots and evolve.

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, wakeup said:

Forestluv has been one of his biggest enablers and defenders - he goes very deep into the meta-analysis and is completely blind when it comes to Leo.

True on meta, yet you must have missed my first post in this thread.

[Fadl]

8 hours ago, Nahm said:

What would you have done as the cop instead? 

Hmm, very good question indeed!

I guess I won't just kill him.

[LastThursday]

17 minutes ago, wakeup said:

Leo is one of the teachers that does not embody his teachings. People that are conscious enough - can see it from a mile away, just from his energy when watching his videos, in other words, the energy doesn't match the words. The arrogant and careless posts that he makes, is another one of many factors that has already been pointed out.

Leo has his own energy and style as we all do.

It's hard not to take things personally when you identify strongly with a leader, and that leader doesn't always align with you. Leo has a masculine, sometimes abrasive and sometimes jokey quality. Best of all he's very direct and he takes criticism extremely well. He shouldn't have to change just to suit us, that would be insanity. The best thing we can all do is to let our own energy and qualities shine through. It will be much appreciated by other forum members.

[wakeup]

19 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

True on meta, yet you must have missed my first post in this thread.

Your first post in this thread is irrelevant to the point that I made here. Either you are really unaware or you choose to stay silent - due to conflict of interests.

[Harmonance]

@Leo Gura

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

4) Sometimes my tone is obnoxious and arrogant. I will work on that in the future. You'll definitely see that improve as I grow.

Hey Leo, it really puts a smile on my face to see you acknowledge the need to work on that instead of dismissing it. I've said this many times on here and under some videos before, your work has been invaluable to me, not one other individual has come even close to giving me as much truly life changing content, and it kept coming, and it keeps coming, and it's always amazing. But it is absolutely obvious that your work takes a great amount of openness not only to the material -which comes as a given within hardcore self actualization and spirituality- but specifically to you and to the way you present your work itself. Many of your videos come free of this, and those are the best ones, the ones I can sit through where it is absolutely clear that you are throwing down your unobtrusive perspective and allowing me to take that as a new lens to see the world through, and a useful, non opinionated, but thoroughly researched way of doing so. 

It took a lot of watching the more "easily palatable" videos, or sitting uncomfortably through some that went in and over my head, to get used to you, your lingo and what it means and how it relates to each other, your way of speaking, and your way of teaching. I now know the mode of listening that is most optimal for me to be in to get the most use out of your work, and I know the times where I must allow my thinking brain to be more lenient with your words, but I recognize that took practice. With your videos being multiple hours long, and this process having to take place over dozens of videos, you can probably see that this is akin to picking up a new hobby a la mastery style.   

What I'm getting at here and what has probably been clear to you for a long time is that this is part of what makes your content so very alienating to many "outsiders." Even people that are interested in self actualization and spirituality can find it hard to endure, which definitely doesn't make it any more easy or common for the regular folks to get into it. Many times have I tried introducing your channel to my friends that I knew were looking for exactly some of your words to enter their heads and align those puzzle pieces together, yet I watch them react in profusely negative ways, very early on, and I've attempted this many times, with different people at different levels, and it's come clear to me that only a very limited and specific set of minds will accept your content in the current form it is presented today. In short the person has to be hungry, tolerant, open, willing to spend hours in possible discomfort, interested in your specific set of material, and smart enough to realize that sometimes they will have to do their discernments of what is useful here and what is not, all that before dismissing you at all, which frankly is much much easier to do for almost everyone else. But all of that to a highly advanced degree too, so it's not even enough to have those values to some extent, they must be also developed in strong foundation. Paradoxically that's all your work tries to offer, it's like you've locked the door and left the keys inside the room, and are waiting for us to find a way to come through.   

I know part of your purpose is most probably isn't to appeal to the average schmuck, but when it gets hard for even the people that are willing to learn and could learn a great, great, deal from you, in my wholesome opinion, it points to a deeper problem that doesn't require massive change, but definitely some sort of amelioration for the better somehow.  In any case, we all appreciate you here, and we want to see more of you flower and take us with ya, so please take this CC from heart to heart <3

 

Ps. Having said all that, please make new videos on Creativity, I'm dying to hear the new insights you can crack my mind open with on how I can make higher and higher consciousness art, and it's surprising you haven't tackled that big C yet!  

[wakeup]

6 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

Leo has his own energy and style as we all do.

It's hard not to take things personally when you identify strongly with a leader, and that leader doesn't always align with you. Leo has a masculine, sometimes abrasive and sometimes jokey quality. Best of all he's very direct and he takes criticism extremely well. He shouldn't have to change just to suit us, that would be insanity. The best thing we can all do is to let our own energy and qualities shine through. It will be much appreciated by other forum members.

What I said, has nothing to do with style. If you were observant enough, you would see that he does not take criticism well. You will not find many posts (you would be lucky to find even one), where he admits to being wrong (personally) and usually goes on the defensive - pointing out the flaw in others, instead of considering other person's POV.

I will throw another pipe bomb here: Leo's biggest shadow is Trump. What you hate in others - is something that you are carrying yourself (to a degree).

You can find many masculine teachers with similar style - who act and embody their teachings in far more congruent way.

Once LEO realizes that it's not about chasing insights or gaining more intellectual understanding, but energetic work - he will have one of the biggest breakthroughs and his teachings may drastically change.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of value in what he teaches (even if he doesn't embody it), but there is a totally different world out there.

 

[Forestluv]

28 minutes ago, wakeup said:

Your first post in this thread is irrelevant to the point that I made here. Either you are really unaware or you choose to stay silent - due to conflict of interests.

You just said I have deep meta cognition. What do you think is more likely for a metacognitive mind - that it is contracted within one point and missing others? Or that is has a meta view of various points and how they are inter-connected? The latter of course.

I can see your point. There are also other points that you are unaware of. If you stay immersed within your point, you won't expand to see other points.

Like an electron, you will not reach superpostition if you are attached to a position. 

[Dodo]

Leo's teachings are very next level and I often find myself contemplating and only in hindsight I have these Aha! Moments and Leo was right. 

Actually there are as many Leos as there are forum members - everyone has an image of him in their mind. The true Leo is not known to us. 

Actually I have had a dream with what I deem to be Leo's highest self. I've only had this with a small select number of people.

Maybe it was to help me, which it definitely did, but also perhaps to return the favour. I have already shared with Leo things from this dream where he was one of the most genuine, authentic and sage-like, friendly, no-bullshit human I've ever seen with a very simple yet amazing life.

The most direct teacher, he showed me I am the entire dream and will never forget this. It was really him, but perhaps in the highest form, but I am also far from my highest self so I am not judging anyone especially not Leo, who is way ahead. 

I love Leo and thank for all he has done. He actually said himself that success is one of the worst things that can happen for your spiritual development, because its very easy to fall pray to the ego. Perhaps more love centered approach is needed.

Maybe he has just gotten a-stray for a bit? Maybe I don't know what the fucj im talking about also im fine with that too.  

Edited October 10, 2020 by Dodo

[Jacob Morres]

18 minutes ago, wakeup said:

I will throw another pipe bomb here: Leo's biggest shadow is Trump. What you hate in others - is something that you are carrying yourself (to a degree).

 

Leo is your shadow

[wakeup]

15 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

You seem to be able to spot the presence of meta cognition, yet are not yet able to access it or create it yourself. Ime and observations, spotting it is much easier than accessing it. There is something you are missing. I'd be happy to elaborate if you are genuinely curious to explore - yet not if you are in debate mode. Notice how you wrote "irrelevant to the point that I made". If you would need to let go of *my point* to expand.

Similar to the blind men and the elephant. The blind man holding the tail thinks the elephant is a rope. That is partially true, yet for him to expand, he would need to realize he is missing something, let go of the tail (my point) and explore other parts of the elephant. Importantly, letting go of the tail does not mean that the tail is false and not part of the elephant. Similarly, letting go of your point temporarily would not mean the point is false. 

In other words, I can see your point, which is true within the context of that point - yet there is an additional point you are missing. Yet like an electron, you would need to let go of position to reach superposition. 

Could you tell me how I could have said "irrelevant to the point that I made" in a different way, without coming off as someone looking for a debate? I certainly meant that - my post addressed a specific topic that is discussed in this thread, Leo.

Have you considered on stepping back a bit on your meta-analysis? And actually addressing exactly what I said? There is a lot of value in that, but I think sometimes you go overboard with it - almost like a mad scientist with his microscope zooming in so much, that he can't see the full thing.

I would be interested in your honest opinion, on the things that I mentioned regarding Leo. If you are not willing to give your honest opinion (being a mod, and if I was in your shoes - it would be difficult for me as well), then I totally understand.

I am very well have some points missing - and I would be interested if they are relevant to the subject being discussed here.

I will also add this:

The best teachers that I seen, are the ones that actually learn from the students. They don't act from authority, and the energetic dynamic at play does not make it feel like a student-teacher relationship. Those rare breed happen to be very secure within themselves and do not derive their identity from being a teacher.

The intent of my posts is to help others in the community to speak up and not to be afraid to voice their opinions. The more people do, the more it may cause for Leo to introspect and consider what is being said seriously.

To Leo's credit - I have personally been impressed by a few members here who seem to have outgrown his teachings, that went even further, and are helping others see things from a different perspective(even if they are at odds with his opinions at times). Without his teachings and this forum - it may not have happened. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by wakeup

[LastThursday]

7 minutes ago, wakeup said:

If you were observant enough, you would see that he does not take criticism well.

I'm definitely observant enough.

What you want is Leo to be different to suit your own needs and delicate ego. Why should he do that? I repeat again: that is insanity.

10 minutes ago, wakeup said:

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of value in what he teaches (even if he doesn't embody it)

You're only here for the value. Why not let everything else go?

[LastThursday]

[wakeup]

2 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

I'm definitely observant enough.

What you want is Leo to be different to suit your own needs and delicate ego. Why should he do that? I repeat again: that is insanity.

You're only here for the value. Why not let everything else go?

I typed "A" and you read it as "B" - through your own biased filter, and are making it about me, my needs, which can't be further from the truth.

Not every person on this forum is a leech - in fact many people here provide tremendous amount of value.

It would help if you would not view my posts as some form of attack on LEO, and instead, something that may potentially help him evolve, if more people will come out and speak up.

I get it that you have been a loyal follower for a long time and it's not easy to even consider the things that I mentioned.

 

[LastThursday]

My intention was stronger? Erm. Dunno. Just pasted it in

[LastThursday]

2 minutes ago, wakeup said:

It would help if you would not view my posts as some form of attack on LEO, and instead, something that may potentially help him evolve, if more people will come out and speak up.

Because that's pure arrogance. It's not helping  Who are we to know better than Leo what he needs? He's a big boy, I think he knows how to evolve all by himself.

I'm all for people speaking up. Believe me if someone upsets my sensibilities then I'm the first to bitch about it. But don't think you're doing Leo a favour, you're not.

[wakeup]

6 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

Because that's pure arrogance. It's not helping  Who are we to know better than Leo what he needs? He's a big boy, I think he knows how to evolve all by himself.

I'm all for people speaking up. Believe me if someone upsets my sensibilities then I'm the first to bitch about it. But don't think you're doing Leo a favour, you're not.

What did I write that you perceived as arrogant? Why are you putting everyone below him? Why blindly defend a guru?

You again missed my point. This speaking up is for people that share similar opinion, but are clearly afraid to voice it, or they don't think it will have any effect, because they are in the minority.

If you disagree, then please address the actual points and don't just dismiss it as "your ego is reacting".

 

 

[LastThursday]

Ok @wakeup my sincere apologies.  I'll get off my high chair and stop boring everyone. You're right, carry on.