Why is eating meat "bad" or less evolved lets say?

[Fran11]

9 minutes ago, integral said:

@Fran11 How is this possible? All of your content on actualized.org that ive read is exceptional. Except for this??? Where you have unshakable faith in science and consense. 

We're not talking about methapysics or spirituality here.

The fact that science is very limited and biased regarding those subjects, doesn't mean it isn't useful for judging a freaking diet.

That's a distinction you have to draw. You can't just indiscriminately throw all of science out the window, that's nonsense.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Fran11

[integral]

@Fran11 Its possible to just entertain the ideas with out preconceptions to see where it goes. To see what you can learn from it. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by integral

[integral]

@Fran11 @datamonster Heres some random doctors who do carnivore, talking science. This is what you wanted... 

Overall nutrition science talk (its all interpretation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_ARV4RN1aw

Cholesterol Controversy (its healthy from this perspective) 

 

[Fran11]

@integral Again, I never said vegan diets are the best for every person and propouse, sure there are benefits to many kinds of diets.

But this conversation is just going in circles...

Edited October 20, 2020 by Fran11

[integral]

@Fran11 They are talking science, explaining studies, from there interpretation off the studies. I cant post studies to "prove" things, i need to post perspectives. 

[Fran11]

1 minute ago, integral said:

@Fran11 They are talking science, explaining studies, from there interpretation off the studies. I cant post studies to "prove" things, i need to post perspectives. 

That's cool. Gonna watch it latter! 

 

[integral]

@datamonster The videos are just perspectives, the science consensus is another perspective. Im no taking sides. but the character (me) eventually after years of experimentation settled on one that is a Frankenstein of all of them. 

It seems turpentine can be used in micro doses to kill parasites. I know people who did this successfully. Again... its a perspective... It might have value, personally to kill parasites i would probably go with a different method. but no matter the method there all pretty stressful on the body. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by integral

[Scholar]

On 18.10.2020 at 2:13 PM, integral said:

This is all projection, this is all your spiritual ideals, your the idealist. 

 

How do you know?

 

On 18.10.2020 at 2:13 PM, integral said:

This is dismissal of the problem. The problem is people cant all be vegan. This needs to be taken seriously to properly understand the problem we need to solve. 

Sure, but how do you know you can't be vegan? And if you can't, what is a reasonable thing to do? Is it reasonable to start killing human beings for meat?

No, you would say that you would rather eat a cow before you eat a human. And then you should ask yourself, is there something rather than a cow that you can eat? This would be a reasonable approach, while still advocating for veganism.

 

Also, of course everyone can be vegan. Veganism is an ethical position. If you truly do need meat to survive, you can be vegan while consuming meat. But you would have to ensure that you truly do need to consume meat to survive. How do you accomplish that?

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Scholar

[integral]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Also, of course everyone can be vegan. Vegan is an ethical position. If you truly do need meat to survive, you can be vegan while consuming meat. But you would have to ensure that you truly do need to consume meat to survive. How do you accomplish that?

We need a better way to differentiate between the vegan diet with vegan ethical position. Its a source of confusion. Can we think of another way to define the ethical position? 

Ok by this definition i am a vegan who eats meat. 

15 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Sure, but how do you know you can't be vegan? And if you can, what is a reasonable thing to do? Is it reasonable to start killing human beings for meat?

No, you would say that you would rather eat a cow before you eat a human. And then you should ask yourself, is there something rather than a cow that you can eat? This would be a reasonable approach, while still advocating for veganism.

Im honestly genuinely asking, is there a shadow here? How passionate are you on these talking points and how much do you want this?

I fully agree with what you are morally saying, but this cant be used as a focal point guiding this inquiry. We need to examine all facets independently. We established the ethical facet, now lets tackle the rest, really openly with out baggage from the other facets. Then we can weight and compare each facet and explore realistic solutions. 

39 minutes ago, Scholar said:

But you would have to ensure that you truly do need to consume meat to survive. How do you accomplish that?

This feels like im suspected of committing a crime and being asked to prove my innocence. In an ideal world eating animals is a against the law?

I understand the perspective... but this is a mistake, the other facets will reveal this. 

45 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Sure, but how do you know you can't be vegan?

Was vegan for 10 years, got really sick (not saying it was the fault of the diet), was forced to start eating meat, the alternative was suicide. We would not be having this conversation if meat was illegal. Maybe there was a way to avoid this but i did not fined it, specifically because Health Care has become a business. A important facet to be explored!

56 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Sure, but how do you know you can't be vegan? And if you can, what is a reasonable thing to do? Is it reasonable to start killing human beings for meat?

No, you would say that you would rather eat a cow before you eat a human. And then you should ask yourself, is there something rather than a cow that you can eat? This would be a reasonable approach, while still advocating for veganism.

The logic works only if this premise holds true: The vegan diet is completely effortlessly tolerated for 99.9% of people. 

The premise is wrong. It becomes clear when we really dig into it. The space is complex with many shades of grey. 

From a vegan ethical position it would mean sacrificed health for many people. A trade off. Maybe this is something you agree with, minimizing suffering overall. But i disagree. 

Ideally we grow meat in lab or some other sciency solution, but we shouldn't rely on this. 

 

[Village]

On 10/20/2020 at 7:25 PM, datamonster said:

So the scientific consensus is worthless, wow... now we're getting into flat-earth territory.

The "scientific consensus" changes its mind every few years.

[Hatfort]

It's second-hand protein and that makes it less efficient and much more resource consuming. Think about how much a cow needs to eat, drink and how much space needs, think about how much what he eats needs, water, space and transport expenses as well. Think about how much a cow shits every single day. Think about how many cows and pigs there are for meat and milk, and the tones of shit they produce. 

The biggest environmental problem is not transport or factory caused any more, it's meat consumption. We've never eaten that much meat by so many people, on a daily basis, it's just not sustainable for the planet. Rainforests are being cut to grow food for cows, they fucking eat a lot so we have our daily steak, burger, sausage or milk in our plate.

How we treat animals it's beyond cruel and they feel pain and similar emotions to us. Yeah, I'm vegan and I'm not going to change that for anything. My health is fine, even better than before. I like the food I eat.

[Claymoree]

27 minutes ago, datamonster said:

I know you probably don't wanna hear it, but vegans are more ethical, hands down. Just like a person who doesn't rape and murder is more ethical than a person who does rape and murder, a person who doesn't kill and torture cows, pigs and chickens is more ethical is more ethical than a person who does.

I'm not a pure vegan myself, so I'm not above this either, but this is just logical.

I don't believe you, man. This sounds a bit exaggerated and dishonest.

You know what premise is wrong? - The idea of "the vegan diet". There is no one "vegan diet". It doesn't exit! There are literally infinite ways you could structure a plant-based diet.

And because most vegans aren't doing it for health, they don't care about vitamins, nutrients, etc. You could do it for health, of course! But most vegans I'd say simply care about the animals.

So, it's ridiculous to compare those vegans to people who follow diets with the intention to actually improve their health.

I personally won't kill a fly or anything, but know vegans who will kill animals if they feel that they interfere with their life, even though there are many different ways to deal with problems.

I think you have to high opinion about most vegans and think that their food makes them into wise sages. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Claymoree

[integral]

@datamonster Curios of a different topic, what do you believe causes green to transition to yellow? 

[Hatfort]

32 minutes ago, Claymoree said:

I personally won't kill a fly or anything, but know vegans who will kill animals if they feel that they interfere with their life, even though there are many different ways to deal with problems.

I think you have to high opinion about most vegans and think that their food makes them into wise sages. 

I don't think what you say is accurate. If vegans have different ways to deal with problems caused by animals that interfere negatively in their lives other than killing them, that's the route they will take. That's a huge consensus, I don't think you will find a single one opposing that.

You may not kill flies, but if you eat a steak or a chicken leg, someone else has done that job for you. Perhaps it could be considered other different way to deal with problems in this case as well. Well, it's got to be considered a problem killing that cow or chicken in the first place, right?

[Intraplanetary]

This is a great story by sadguru.

It illustrates how vegans who think that their way is superior and more moral are so so wrong...

To call meat-eater or farmer or hunter morally wrong is prejudice and ignorance.

It can also be said that animals can be raised and killed ethically and our solution to end animal cruelty and help the environment is through holistic regenerative agriculture. 

I hope you can learn something from this timeless wisdom: 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Intraplanetary

[Claymoree]

22 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

I don't think what you say is accurate. If vegans have different ways to deal with problems caused by animals that interfere negatively in their lives other than killing them, that's the route they will take. That's a huge consensus, I don't think you will find a single one opposing that.

You may not kill flies, but if you eat a steak or a chicken leg, someone else has done that job for you. Perhaps it could be considered other different way to deal with problems in this case as well. Well, it's got to be considered a problem killing that cow or chicken in the first place, right?

Difference is that I understand that world is built on life and death and is ever changing, you need death to live, food is privilege , not a way, 

 

[Hatfort]

6 minutes ago, Claymoree said:

Difference is that I understand that world is built on life and death and is ever changing, you need death to live, food is privilege , not a way, 

 

Difference of what? What's your point?

The world is not built on life and death, the world is not built on anything, life and death are part of it as many other things are. An important part, I'd say, from our perspective and the perspective of living beings. For stones and rocks, not that much. We need food to live and it doesn't need to be animal based, it can, but it doesn't need to, it's our choice.

[Claymoree]

13 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

Difference of what? What's your point?

The world is not built on life and death, the world is not built on anything, life and death are part of it as many other things are. An important part, I'd say, from our perspective and the perspective of living beings. For stones and rocks, not that much. We need food to live and it doesn't need to be animal based, it can, but it doesn't need to, it's our choice.

I am glad that you understood that I am talking about living organism, not about rocks perspective, although rock as anything forms from something else being taken away, you lose something to gain something. 

Lets leave it at it being your choice.

[Hatfort]

1 minute ago, Claymoree said:

I am glad that you understood that I am talking about living organism, not about rocks perspective, although rock as anything forms from something else being taken away, you lose something to gain something. 

Lets leave it at it being your choice.

That's not what I understood from your comment, to be honest. You state some vague ideas, I gotta make some assumptions as you don't say anything straight. So you lose something to gain something... Oh my godness, I'm leaving veganism right now, one hamburger, please!

[Claymoree]

6 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

That's not what I understood from your comment, to be honest. You state some vague ideas, I gotta make some assumptions as you don't say anything straight. So you lose something to gain something... Oh my godness, I'm leaving veganism right now, one hamburger, please!

I didn't say that you need to leave veganism, if you feel it is right for you  go for it, even if it isn't healthy.

My point was not to convince anyone  that one diet is better then other. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Claymoree