Why is eating meat "bad" or less evolved lets say?

[integral]

3 hours ago, Scholar said:

But all of this is not the case in the carnivore movement. They are dogmatic, in their way to preserve their self-image, they are willing to go any length. Infact, what is so clearly a dysfunction within them, they now accept as some sort of noble norm. That they can't consume plants because humans are not made to consume plants. It is not because they are incapable of consuming them for some reason like gut issues, no, humans are carnivores and everyone ought to be a  carnivore if they want to thrive.

 

Are you sure? What if the carnivores cared more? What if they where taking even more responsibility? 

Edited October 14, 2020 by integral

[Village]

6 hours ago, Scholar said:

It is very interesting that the devil always has to justify his current behaviour. You don't see a carnivore who thinks it would be better to eat lab grown meat, 99% of them have constructed an ideology out of their survival problems.

The same was true for past societies. Survival was threatened to such a degree that they accepted things like slavery. Yet, they didn't simply accept it is some sort of sad but necessary consequence. They instead created an ideology that fully justifies slavery, that makes slavery good.

 

This is a hallmark of lower stages. At higher stages we might accept the evil we are causing for self-preserverence, yet we lack the necessity to create an ideology that justifies it beyond our own selfishness. We can see our selfishness and accept it.

We wouldn't need to say that veganism is unhealthy for all people, simply that it happened to be unhealthy for us. We wouldn't need to say that it's fine to kill all animals, we could say it that we are willing to kill the least problematic beings for our health. We wouldn't need to deny science and create a contrarian position that deems a plant based diet to be invalid. We could in general support veganism, we could encourage everyone to adopt it while recognizing that our issues are unique.

 

But all of this is not the case in the carnivore movement. They are dogmatic, in their way to preserve their self-image, they are willing to go any length. Infact, what is so clearly a dysfunction within them, they now accept as some sort of noble norm. That they can't consume plants because humans are not made to consume plants. It is not because they are incapable of consuming them for some reason like gut issues, no, humans are carnivores and everyone ought to be a  carnivore if they want to thrive.

 

All of it a play of identity. Nothing new.

Why would anyone want to eat anything that was made in a lab? If you wish to - bon apetite. But don't bash other humans for eating human food.

I wouldn't call viewing nature as evil a "high stage". If you think eating another animal is evil, you don't understand love.

If you think veganism can be healthy, you don't understand nutrition. I already went over this above. If you actually cared for human health and not spiritual ego, you wouldn't support veganism either. You'd pay some attention to the MILLIONS of ex-vegans who quit due to health issues, and to the MILLIONS of vegans who currently suffer from anemia, ruined gut and various other issues. And it's not good for the environment, for god's sake, just look up monocrops. You kill more animals as a vegan than I do as a carnivore and you destroy the earth.

A play of identity indeed. How does it feel to have a moral pedestal to us low stage flesh eaters? I'm sure your spiritual ego loves it.

[PurpleTree]

Why is this turning into a carnivore vs vegan thing?

Why do extremists tend to take over discussions?

We need a strong center not these extremes  

[integral]

1 hour ago, datamonster said:

Word.

What if Hitler was actually the good guy?

Where would we with out hitler? What if hitler indirectly prevented world war 3? 

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, Village said:

Why would anyone want to eat anything that was made in a lab? If you wish to - bon apetite. But don't bash other humans for eating human food.

I wouldn't call viewing nature as evil a "high stage". If you think eating another animal is evil, you don't understand love.

If you think veganism can be healthy, you don't understand nutrition. I already went over this above. If you actually cared for human health and not spiritual ego, you wouldn't support veganism either. You'd pay some attention to the MILLIONS of ex-vegans who quit due to health issues, and to the MILLIONS of vegans who currently suffer from anemia, ruined gut and various other issues. And it's not good for the environment, for god's sake, just look up monocrops. You kill more animals as a vegan than I do as a carnivore and you destroy the earth.

A play of identity indeed. How does it feel to have a moral pedestal to us low stage flesh eaters? I'm sure your spiritual ego loves it.

lol

• Growing lab grown meat would be more compassionate and ethical.
• It would be most certainly healthier due to us being able to control for factors like cholesterol.
• Antibiotic resistant bacteria would not be a problem anymore because we wouldn't be using antibiotics on animals anymore, which is actually a serious problem we currently have. There is a possible future in which anti-biotics are completely useless, in which human beings die from basic infections as they did 200 years ago.
• It would stop one of the most significant drivers of environmental destruction. A significant amount of your so called monocrops are being fed to factory farmed animals. Infact, animal agriculture makes it impossible for us to adopt any other means of crop production but monocrops. Demand is too high for us to do any healthy kind of agriculture. Infact, if demand in Asia keeps rising and meet western standards, we will need multiple planets just so we can grow the crops to feed the animals. With grazing animals this becomes even worse, infact we would require multiple planets to meet the already present demand. Why do you think are the amazon forests being burned? They are making room for the cows so they can export them to China. If this continues, there will be no significant forest left on this planet in the next 100 years.
• It would not necessitate to put human beings in the position of having to kill other sentient beings as a job, preventing them from experiencing terrible PTSD very similar to what war veterans experience. Having to kill hundreds of animals every day while expecting these people to remain psychologically intact and treat the animals respectfully is absurd.
• There is no evidence that millions of vegans are anemic, have a ruined gut and therefore cannot continue to be vegan. All the studies we have seen so far indicate the opposite.

 

 

I don't know, how does it feel to have a moral pedestal to those low stage slave owners? I'm sure that is all just spiritual ego. "If you think raping and killing humans is evil, you don't understand Love." There is no point in bringing Love into any of this, other than you attempting to justify your own identity with your spiritual beliefs.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Scholar

[integral]

@Scholar This seems like a sensitive subject for you, do you agree?

Is there an agenda here fueled by your moral standards?

Edited October 14, 2020 by integral

[Scholar]

18 minutes ago, integral said:

@Scholar This seems like a sensitive subject for you, do you agree?

Is there an agenda here fueled by your moral standards?

I don't know what you mean by sensitive. And I don't know what you mean by agenda, I think I am pretty transparent about my motivations here. Of course this is a more relevant thing to talk about for me because I view it as important.

 

And it is also a good way to illustrate some of the pitfalls of spiritual ideology, which I think many people here have fallen into. I think it is a mistake to use spirituality to justify or prohibit actions. But that was described in detail in the initial posts I made here.

It's a bit surprising how unconscious some people here are in terms of them not realizing what they are doing. They will at one hand use Spirituality and Love to say that killing animals is all fine and dandy, and in the next thread over they will complain about politics or any other topic. They would never use this kind of thinking to go into a thread about how raping children is wrong, and tell everyone they should just be more spiritual and accept things.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Scholar

[integral]

@Scholar How do you feel about animals being raised sustainably and ethically for consumption? 

[Village]

16 hours ago, Scholar said:

lol

• Growing lab grown meat would be more compassionate and ethical.
• It would be most certainly healthier due to us being able to control for factors like cholesterol.
• Antibiotic resistant bacteria would not be a problem anymore because we wouldn't be using antibiotics on animals anymore, which is actually a serious problem we currently have. There is a possible future in which anti-biotics are completely useless, in which human beings die from basic infections as they did 200 years ago.
• It would stop one of the most significant drivers of environmental destruction. A significant amount of your so called monocrops are being fed to factory farmed animals. Infact, animal agriculture makes it impossible for us to adopt any other means of crop production but monocrops. Demand is too high for us to do any healthy kind of agriculture. Infact, if demand in Asia keeps rising and meet western standards, we will need multiple planets just so we can grow the crops to feed the animals. With grazing animals this becomes even worse, infact we would require multiple planets to meet the already present demand. Why do you think are the amazon forests being burned? They are making room for the cows so they can export them to China. If this continues, there will be no significant forest left on this planet in the next 100 years.
• It would not necessitate to put human beings in the position of having to kill other sentient beings as a job, preventing them from experiencing terrible PTSD very similar to what war veterans experience. Having to kill hundreds of animals every day while expecting these people to remain psychologically intact and treat the animals respectfully is absurd.
• There is no evidence that millions of vegans are anemic, have a ruined gut and therefore cannot continue to be vegan. All the studies we have seen so far indicate the opposite.

 

 

I don't know, how does it feel to have a moral pedestal to those low stage slave owners? I'm sure that is all just spiritual ego. "If you think raping and killing humans is evil, you don't understand Love." There is no point in bringing Love into any of this, other than you attempting to justify your own identity with your spiritual beliefs.

• Ethics are a religious invention, they don't exist in nature.
• As I said before, you're clueless about nutrition. All of your cells are made of cholesterol and saturated fat. Breast milk—the only food a baby needs—is made of cholesterol and saturated fat. The most prized, nutritionally-dense foods (caviar, brain, liver) are very rich in cholesterol. Obviously your own brain is made of cholesterol. Your ancestors consumed high-cholesterol diets for ever. Don't you see what nature tries to tell you here?
• You shouldn't eat animals that were given antibiotics, I agree.
• Don't eat factory-farmed animals. Actual farms do exist.
• Humans in nature hunt animals every day. Most people are completely removed from nature, which is why they find it horrifying. Why do most video games revolve around killing? Why are most sports about chasing something or hitting a target? What primal drive are we trying to satisfy? Those games will never satisfy it because the prize is not made of blood and meat.
• Funnily I couldn't find any study on anemia in vegans (wonder why they don't fund that), only in vegetarians, which all show substantially higher levels of anemia than in meat eaters. We can only imagine vegans have it even worse. As for the ruined gut, just listen to some ex-vegans about how veganism affected their health, if you're so compassionate. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them reports that. There's a reason everyone eventually quits veganism. It's an unsustainable religion. Hell, I bet you fart all day long and think your gut is healthy. A healthy person should have no gas at all.

Just contemplate the fact that we've been eating meat since the dawn of humanity, and all of a sudden vegans decide to break the circle of life and replace it with an unnatural, man-made diet, that only became possible recently due to cultivated modern plants that are imported in smoke-emitting ships from the other side of the globe, wherein a monocrop factory is built upon what once was a wildlife-abundant forest.

You're so compassionate that you want people to become patients who shoot B12 and pop pills all day long. And you want to feed them synthetic, lab-made GMO garbage. What a picture of health. All in all, you promote an anti-human, anti-nature religion.

Eat some raw meat, drink some blood - you'll understand what true health is. Your baseline feeling should be near euphoria. Only then will you be able to truly love.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Village

[Scholar]

13 hours ago, integral said:

@Scholar How do you feel about animals being raised sustainably and ethically for consumption? 

Replace animals with mentally handicapped people of the same level of cognitive ability as animals and you know my answer.

 

Consider that there is a fundamental difference in what we value here, and how we value it. Imagine the majority of the world would deem it ethical to throw homosexuals off a roof. Imagine you lived in a spiritual community which largely agreed with that sentiment. They would not just deem it to be permissable, but infact they would contribute and actively engage in the killing of homosexuals.

This is the position I find myself in. And ironically you, because you use Spirituality to justify your deeds, have to admit that you cannot say that I am wrong, because all of it is just relative. It's just an opinon, a spiritual ego, that makes it so people resist the killing of homosexuals. Therefore you would have to judge, within that context, such a person who argued against the killing of homosexuals in just the same way you are judging me.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Scholar

[integral]

@Scholar If there was a technology that could identify exactly what a persons optimal diet is and for some it was vegan for others paleo... would you enforce everyone to be vegan regardless? Sacrificing there health? 

[integral]

@datamonster perfect. so this problem is far more complex then moving the entire planet to veganism? because the act is justified?

Edited October 17, 2020 by integral

[Fran11]

4 minutes ago, integral said:

@datamonster perfect. so this problem is far more complex then moving the entire planet to veganism? 

In a sense, yes.

But there aren't that many people who cannot tolerate a vegan diet. You would have to suffer form some very specific health condition.

The WHO aproves veganism for people of all ages, I think it has already been stated.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Fran11

[integral]

7 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

But there aren't that many people who cannot tolerate a vegan diet. You would have to suffer form some very specific health condition.

What if this isnt true? What do we do? How do we tackle this problem?  

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, toocrazytobecrazy said:

meat without sauces taste so bad, we try to make them taste good with all those ingredients. 

 

Why lie?

A grilled ribeye steak with just salt tastes great, i also enjoy burgers, chicken fish etc. with just salt and maybe some olive oil

[Fran11]

59 minutes ago, integral said:

What if this isnt true? What do we do? 

It is true. There are vegans who are allergic to certain foods, but they just avoid those. 

Those rare cases where they really need meet for whatever reason, we allow them if there's no alternative. You can bring up evidence about this being common and frecuent if you have it. If not, you are just making up problems.

Solutions are never 100% effective. That's why we still have humans being murdered, raped and tortured.

It's all about harm reduction, not perfection.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Fran11

[integral]

41 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

It is true. There are vegans who are allergic to certain foods, but they just avoid those. 

Those rare cases where they really need meet for whatever reason, we allow them if there's no alternative. You can bring up evidence about this being common and frecuent if you have it. If not, you are just making up problems.

Arent these assumptions? Why is there conviction in these beliefs and why is the burden of proof in my court? Oversights reveal themselves only after the fact. Everything is always good on paper. The chess move always appears good before its played. 

[ravlondon]

@commie Based of the way you phrased the question, you're starting with a conclusion, that eating meat means you're 'less evolved'.

This may refer to the possibility that 'lesser' intelligent animals intuit rather than think and therefore only follow their base emotions.

 

Humans as a species grow and moralise with the knowledge we learn and as there are strong arguments to make against not eating meat, we should consider not doing it. 

The same goes for violence, racism, sexism etc.  

[Fran11]

1 hour ago, integral said:

Arent these assumptions? Why is there conviction in these beliefs and why is the burden of proof in my court?  

No, they are not assumtions. We already have 78 millions of vegans in the world, it's not some new unknown thing we're talking about. The data indicates there's no problem if you do it properly, that's what the WHO claims. 

If you are gonna contradict or question the most importan and large health organization in the world, which has made this conclussion by looking over lots of controlled scientific studies, you have to at the very least provide some solid non-anecdotal evidence to make your case. Otherwise you are just making shit up.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Fran11

[integral]

46 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

No, they are not assumtions. We already have millions of vegans in the world, it's not some new unknown thing we're talking about. The data indicates there's no problem if you do it properly, that's what the WHO says. 

If you are gonna contradict or question the most importan and large health organization in the world, which has made this conclussion by looking over lots of controlled scientific studies, you have to at least provide some solid non-anecdotal evidence to make your case. Otherwise you are just making shit up.

@Fran11 from a scale from 1-10 how confident are you about this? (honestly asking) This is a personal question, im not trying to use this to prove anything. 

Is it possible all of this is self deception? 

We need to go meta. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by integral