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Please help me debunk my friend's cult

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My friend is cool and all, but since corona he's been talking an awful lot about dimensions and this "organization" he calls Heptism. I keep telling him cults are dangerous, but he won't listen. I don't know a lot about these kinds of models or about spirituality, so I thought maybe if I can challenge the theory itself, he'll listen. All I have is this seven pointed star he keeps referring to. He says I need to reach dimension 6 to truly get it. Can you help me sort this out?

Heptagram.png

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Reminds me of SD to be honest: the colours, the oscillation between individual and collective stages etc..

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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@Carl-Richard You mean spiral dynamics? Leo did a series on that but it seemed a bit useless to me. I've only watched the psychedelics videos. Also I already told him that people don't fit inside boxes, but he won't listen

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2 minutes ago, I said:

@Carl-Richard You mean spiral dynamics? Leo did a series on that but it seemed a bit useless to me. I've only watched the psychedelics videos. Also I already told him that people don't fit inside boxes, but he won't listen

People don't always fit neatly into boxes, but boxes can be useful.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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I can't read the small words but there must be a connection between SD and this. 

Looks like a bad reinterpretation. 

Edited by Opo

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@DefinitelyNotARobot He wants to go live full time in a village in canada. He says they have a center there. And sometimes he starts talking really fast about dimensions and irony

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@Opo It's weird, I can definitely zoom in enough to see everything. But yeah, i just searched for "magic egocentric mythic rational pluralistic meta holistic" and it seems to correlate with spiral dynamics, except "integral" is swapped for "meta" is that why it's a "bad reinterpretation"?

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@I Okay and so what's you definition of a cult? What's the difference between living in a village with like minded people and being in a cult?

You seem to be a little biased. I am not saying their not a cult. Neither am I saying they are. But you see...

Quote

I don't know a lot about these kinds of models or about spirituality, so I thought maybe if I can challenge the theory itself, he'll listen.

... this is a weird statement. You asked for his view to be challenged and debunked. That's like saying: "I don't know a lot about scientific models and physics, but please help me debunk quantum physics."

Again I am not saying he is right or wrong, I don't know that model. But why are you, somebody who knows little about spirituality and those kinds of models, trying to challenge this model? Why not be open-minded about it? Things are rarely 100% true or false. This model might be made of 99% falsehood and 1% truth. It might be 99% truth vs 1% falsehood. It might be 20/80, 60/40, 90/10, or whatever. But the best way to approach this is to actually try to understand this model first. Once you understand how this model works and on what it's based, you can actually form your own opinion on it. You might start seeing its limitations, you might see that it's actually a solid model.

PS. Can you link me any sources? I don't find anything when I search for Heptism.

Edited by DefinitelyNotARobot

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So I guess I would ask if your friend is manifesting his belief in this system in an unhealthy and/or toxic way? Is he isolating himself from outside criticism, and does get defensive really easily if his views are challenged in any way? Does he display an "us vs them" mentality to the outside world? Do you feel like he's being taken advantage of, or being emotionally manipulated?  Those are  just a few indicators you can look to to to help determine if your friend is in a cult. It could be the case that he's attached himself to a misinformed worldview without necessarily being in a Cult.

As others have mentioned, without diving too deep into it, it looks like the model above is some sort of sloppy reinterpretation of Spiral Dynamics. Without more info it's kind of hard to say.
 


"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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@DefinitelyNotARobot You're right, I'll definitely try to understand the model a bit more. I just started watching Leo's video on this. I guess what I don't like is that they've created a hierarchy with echelons and stuff. I just can't shake the feeling that there's gonna be debts, sex slaves and child abuse like most cults. Also, I'm trying to remember the other name he used. I'll get back to you when I find it

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influence-continuum-cot.png


"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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@DocWatts He spends a lot of time alone, his rants get kind of annoying (way more than they used to) and he does get really defensive. It's like he thinks he's on a higher plane of existence than everyone else

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Another perspective on this might be distinguishing between the cult and your friend's behaviors and attitudes.  As in, the community or cult might be a peaceful and really decent place with decent people, but then your friend's attitude and psychology may be moving into the unhealthy.  

That's the first thing I saw when reading what you wrote and your friends behavior.  Sounds like he might not be displaying super healthy thinking and behavior.

But, again, not saying the community isn't a cult either.  Could be.  


"Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down"   --   Marry Poppins

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1 minute ago, I said:

@DocWatts He spends a lot of time alone, his rants get kind of annoying (way more than they used to) and he does get really defensive. It's like he thinks he's on a higher plane of existence than everyone else

Sounds like he's maybe applying Spiral Dynamics in a really immature and uninformed way. If he's using it to judge others and place himself above everyone else, he's kind of missing the whole point of the Spiral Dynamics model. One of the main reasons that Spiral Dynamics exists is to help people better understand and empathize with others who have a different worldview than your own. 


"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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@DocWatts Okay, I think I can actually use that. He prides himself on being his own biggest critic, being openminded and all. I think I can at least decrease his ego trip if I point out that he's not actually thinking in 6 dimensions or whatnot

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@I

14 minutes ago, I said:

It's like he thinks he's on a higher plane of existence than everyone else

I think this is a trap that most will fall into at a certain point of self-development and spirituality. Especially once you get a little glimpse of what this kind of work has to offer compared to what is in most of society. 

I don't know based off of what you wrote here is it is a cult or not. If he has not been into this very long and is looking to just move all of the sudden that is a red flag though. From the sound of your post maybe 6 months or something he has been into it. I would ask him to share some information on their recruitment and more details in general. If he is not willing to share details on what they have or it is secretive it is probably a cult. 

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Sure it looks amateur-ish, the use of colors is questionable, the spiral dynamics is a bit skewed and I can't find any reference or any explanation for it whatsoever, but after taking a (perhaps autistically) close look at it, I wouldn't be so quick to call the model itself sloppy. It looks like it's mapping SD/Graves onto a bigger spectrum of consciousness like Ken Wilber does, and from what I can see, it lines up quite well.
For example, if you look at the numbers instead of the positions, you see that the 3.5D magical stage sits right between 3D animals and 4D humans and it's the beginning of a subjective mind. Wilber's magical animistic sits right between emotions (animals) and symbols (humans) and it's the beginning of 1st person.
And I think the whole thing goes:
1) Matter - Stone
2) Body - Plant
3) Emotion - Animal
    3.0) Probably where beige would be if this were an octagram
    3.5) Magic - Tribe
4) Memory - Human
    4.0) Egocentric - Gang
    4.5) Mythic - Community
5) Idea - Person
    5.0) Rational - Humanity
    5.5) Pluralistic - Earth
6) Model - System
    6.0) Meta - Cosmos
    6.5) Holistic - Kosmos
7) Universe - Truth
It looks like it's been copied directly from Wilber's work. But one thing bugs me, though. It's the math of it all.
The way the black lines cross one another, they link the stages by skipping one and then going to the next, like the collective/individual pendulum swing, but the dimensions are linked by skipping two instead, giving us normal 2-step pendulum swings within bigger weird 3-step ones, from line to surface to volume, back to timeline and so on. It kind of means that in order to add a dimension, you have to go from individual to collective, back to individual. Surprisingly, it works exactly like Hausdorff Dimensions, in which a single straight line is 1D, folded or multiple lines sit somewhere between 1D and 2D, depending on how convoluted they are, and then they meet again to form a single straight surface at exactly 2D. And also, these 7 words that are associated to the 7 dimensions:
Ground: I can imagine rock consciousness as being a unidimensional witness of the gravitational force pulling down
Energy: I can imagine tree consciousness as also extending in the lateral direction of the sun and humid soil
Dominance: Animals who can be conscious of their position in the hierarchy and can hunt a prey in front of them, using depth perception.
Certainty: Humans who can see a single concrete story going forward (like a rock falling, 4 resonating with 1)
Possibility: People who can see a tree of possibilities (here's the tree again, 5 resonating with 2)
Dimensionality: People who can see their position in the holarchy (and I guess hunt lower stages like animals do, 6 resonating with 3)
Infinity: People who can see everything, as the small pendulum make you one with God (and as 7 resonates with 4D stories like the Bible)
I put this effort into debunking the model so you won't have to. But now I can strongly suggest you shift the focus back to him, to how his family would miss him, how annoying it would be if you ranted as much as he does, etc. 
Because I spent about an hour thinking about that picture and I do have to say, I get the appeal. I've never seen one quite like it. Please send more details if you can.

IMG_20200906_145043.jpg

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@Philip Ok that seems way out of my league. You're right, I'll just stick to personal stuff. Thank you for your time, everyone

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