Someone here

Is there a way out of suffering?

275 posts in this topic

On 11/08/2020 at 5:55 PM, Nahm said:

There’s no one to understand or define nonduality. That’d be two. Nonduality is a pointing, not a concept. The word doesn’t suggest what it is, only what it is not. If it is a concept, follow the pointing until it isn’t. Stop looking at the finger and see the moon, sts. 

Can you please explain the pointer of non-duality then. What does it point to if not to the non-existence of dualities in the universe. 

 The way I understand it is this definition from wikipedia: In spirituality, nondualism, also called non-duality, means "not two" or "one undivided without a second". Nondualism primarily refers to a mature state of consciousness, in which the dichotomy of I-other is "transcended", and awareness is described as "centerless" and "without dichotomies

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The universe is an appearance. There are no process, there is an idea that there are processes. It’d all be as it is, without the idea or label. 

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Ideas aren’t wrong or right, that in and of itself is an idea. The universe has no processes. There are no humans. 

I understand that the universe is as it is without the ideas and labels. But that doesn't mean we don't have the mental tools to learn about the universe through repeated observations and make predictions. Like the concept of limits in calculus, we can make better and better theories about the universe that get closer to the ground truth of the universe, but never completely reach the ground truth.  Why do you completely dismiss all emergent properties of the universe, such as the mind and its ability to learn about its situation in reality?

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Start from what is actual, now. Notice evolution is a back story, not anything which can be pointed to. The actuality of anything pointed to, is now. That there is a past comes in as an idea, about now. 

I get it... everything we know about the universe is mental constructs/objects. But there is no good reason to dismiss everything that our mind creates, this kind of anti-intellectual reasoning leads nowhere, the extent to which direct experience is valued over all else seems almost dogmatic here.

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Yes & yes there is. When all beliefs are seen through and as such disappear, only truth remains, and not even. 

The very idea of reincarnation requires belief. Please explain how you are directly experiencing reincarnation. Also, how can you be so sure that even without beliefs and any labels your direct experience is correct? Direct experience is equally deceptive. The reality that you experience is a result of your brain creating internal models which use predictions. Your direct experience is never ground truth but the best attempt at predicting what is.

 

 

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@gswva well said.

God's got nothing better to do :)

What is better than discovering Love = Pure Selflessness?  For some forms of God it takes learning the hard way.  But God is OK with that :)

 


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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1 hour ago, 0bserver said:

Can you please explain the pointer of non-duality then. What does it point to if not to the non-existence of dualities in the universe. 

 The way I understand it is this definition from wikipedia: In spirituality, nondualism, also called non-duality, means "not two" or "one undivided without a second". Nondualism primarily refers to a mature state of consciousness, in which the dichotomy of I-other is "transcended", and awareness is described as "centerless" and "without dichotomies

If nonduality could be explained, no one would believe it. You & a universe is two.

1 hour ago, 0bserver said:

I understand that the universe is as it is without the ideas and labels. But that doesn't mean we don't have the mental tools to learn about the universe through repeated observations and make predictions. Like the concept of limits in calculus, we can make better and better theories about the universe that get closer to the ground truth of the universe, but never completely reach the ground truth.  Why do you completely dismiss all emergent properties of the universe, such as the mind and its ability to learn about its situation in reality?

Nothing is emerging to dismiss. 

1 hour ago, 0bserver said:

I get it... everything we know about the universe is mental constructs/objects. But there is no good reason to dismiss everything that our mind creates, this kind of anti-intellectual reasoning leads nowhere, the extent to which direct experience is valued over all else seems almost dogmatic here

I love creation, I’m not dismissing it. I’m saying there aren’t two. Dogma is the opposite of inspecting direct experience, or, nonduality.

1 hour ago, 0bserver said:

The very idea of reincarnation requires belief. Please explain how you are directly experiencing reincarnation. Also, how can you be so sure that even without beliefs and any labels your direct experience is correct? Direct experience is equally deceptive. The reality that you experience is a result of your brain creating internal models which use predictions. Your direct experience is never ground truth but the best attempt at predicting what is.

Yes, the idea of reincarnation is not the direct experience of it, just like everything else. Direct experience requires seeing through beliefs. Direct experience is ‘correct’, because it is direct experience. If direct experience is deception, then the direct experience is that of deception. There’s no direct experience of a brain, sans a thought, ‘brain’. The ‘brain’ appears to, but does not produce. What is can’t be predicted, it’s already what is. 100%. ?


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11 hours ago, allislove said:

In the morning I felt a strong pain. I was thinking 'this is it', no way out from this pain. Then, I urgently made an appointment with the doctor and the doctor said nothing to worry about, I just need to wait a few days. 

Why I am sharing it? Because, now when I know this is not a big deal, I don't feel the pain that much. I stopped pushing it out that much. 

So, the difference between psychological and physical suffering is a lie. There is no difference. No identification - everything is one - no suffering - only love ?

It's called placebo. 


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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12 hours ago, Nahm said:

 I would utilize focus, attention, awareness, whichever word fits easiest, and use it like an inner flashlight to ‘go to’ exactly, precisely where the pain is in the body. Keep ‘shining the awareness on it’ to more and more see precisely what it is. Feel it as much as possible, as a student. Wide open to listen to it. This can be very revealing. I have experienced many times in working with people the actual lasting disappearance of pain they battled for years. People who for whatever reason didn’t respond to meds, dr’s & therapies

So just being aware of the pain it's gonna disappear???  Sorry no it doesn't work like that. Not at all. 


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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9 hours ago, Mu_ said:

Think about that, what is suffering and death and horrific things if its positive and a blessing in some peoples perspectives?  Can you even call it suffering or wrong or a negative.  Do you get what I'm saying or pointing to?  Suffering and negative and bad only exists in the eyes of the beholder.  Pain and what it means about something or someone or some event is only in the eyes of the beholder.  There is no definitive thing like a bible that absolutely defines "this is suffering or bad" "or this is what pain means".

There is actually such a reference point which is ME. That might be true objectively or from the point of view of the universe itself but not true from the point of view of a sense of self. 


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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7 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Someone here

That was fast. How did it go?

 

Creating Tinder profile...

Tell us a little about yourself:   Reference point.

There is a sense of self but there is no self.  That's how you can even reference to "it" and deny it's existence.. If it was completely absent we wouldn't need a 7000 years nondual tradtions to teach us such obvious fact. 

Edited by Someone here

"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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41 minutes ago, Someone here said:

There is actually such a reference point which is ME. That might be true objectively or from the point of view of the universe itself but not true from the point of view of a sense of self. 

Did you consider anything I was saying? 

I have to agree with Nahm on this one, you dont seem like your open to learning.  My intuition is that there is something in you that does, but your ego or attachment to your "awakening and discovery of Truth" is being so held onto that if you were  to be open to more, it would threaten some idea in you that maybe you don't know what you know or as much as you think you do. 

I mean think about, there's a lot of really good stuff in this thread, and somehow your the smartest one in the room and none of it is believable to you even though you said you wanted to learn something that you dont know... Lol, if you don't know then how would you know one way or the other unless you tried out some stuff and really looked into some of the information over a period of time, rather then just a mmmmm "10 seconds pass", nope not true......

How have you learned anything in the past or up to your supposed awakening....  Did you just open a book or listen to someone and within 10 seconds said, ya thats true I know that, got it, learned, I know it now.

Come on man, its okay to have an awakening, and still be open to more and have more to learn....

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@Mu_ you just take it personal. Has nothing to do with me or you.  Just sharing ideas together.  We can disagree with each other without assuming that the other person is just playing smartass or disagreeing for the sake of disagreement. . But since that's how you Believe my situation to be.. I will leave it here and not will not open a new line with you.  Appreciate your insights btw. 

Edited by Someone here

"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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@Someone here

There might be a conclusion about an experience via the thought of the experience, rather than from the experience. It’s just a suggestion, or pointing to a distinction that something unseen can be discovered in the actuality of the experience. That a difference between deeply suffering vs limiting or eliminating suffering is found in proper inspection, vs resistance. The resistance is easy to spot, as it only occurs in thinking, as thought. So only feeling into it, over and over, sincerely, genuinely, would do. Maybe a few days or weeks, if interested, and then make a determination. 


MEDITATIONS TOOLS  ActualityOfBeing.com  GUIDANCE SESSIONS

NONDUALITY LOA  My Youtube Channel  THE TRUE NATURE

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2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Mu_ you just take it personal. Has nothing to do with me or you.  Just sharing ideas together.  We can disagree with each other without assuming that the other person is just playing smartass or disagreeing for the sake of disagreement. . But since that's how you Believe my situation to be.. I will leave it here and not will not open a new line with you.  Appreciate your insights btw. 

@Mu_ @Someone here cigar time as we ponder reality :)

 


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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@Nahm

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Someone here

There might be a conclusion about an experience via the thought of the experience, rather than from the experience. It’s just a suggestion, or pointing to a distinction that something unseen can be discovered in the actuality of the experience. That a difference between deeply suffering vs limiting or eliminating suffering is found in proper inspection, vs resistance. The resistance is easy to spot, as it only occurs in thinking, as thought. So only feeling into it, over and over, sincerely, genuinely, would do. Maybe a few days or weeks, if interested, and then make a determination. 

Thanks. I promise will consider this even tho I believe this is again has to do with the psychological aspect of suffering not much with the physical or plain sensations. 


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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Heres the thing about suffering.

All is consciousness - so thus suffering is a an idea.  As are you and me.  But transcending such an idea when you yourself as the ego are an idea is the finite trying to grasp the infinite.  It can be done only by becoming infinite.

You can kid yourself all you want - but it will hit you at some point no matter how "happy" you are.   And you may be happy 99.99999 percent of the time - but that still leaves room.   And the percentage will increase with age.

Yes if you are conscious enough you can just not bring pain and suffering into your awareness and it won't exist.  But then paradoxically suffering exists in it not existing.  Because when it breaks to the surface of your finite mind - as in someone slicing your arm off - you will need to turn your awareness away.

 


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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49 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Nahm

Thanks. I promise will consider this even tho I believe this is again has to do with the psychological aspect of suffering not much with the physical or plain sensations. 

Get your feet nice and wet with that, and then try then same with pain. You might be pleasantly surprised, I hope so. Maybe  try an intermediary step, feeling for the separation between the two. 

Going back to the op though, only enlightenment / awakening will do. So have such an experience. :) Feel into any resistance. 


MEDITATIONS TOOLS  ActualityOfBeing.com  GUIDANCE SESSIONS

NONDUALITY LOA  My Youtube Channel  THE TRUE NATURE

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46 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Nahm

Thanks. I promise will consider this even tho I believe this is again has to do with the psychological aspect of suffering not much with the physical or plain sensations. 

I see where you are going.  Imagining away the pain of getting your arm sliced off is equivalent to Imagining away the wall in front of you.  It would take insane levels of consciousness.  Infinite levels.    It can be done - but not with ordinary human levels of consciousness.  There is no one on this forum that is at that level because honestly i don't think there are any humans on that level or they wouldn't be human.


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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43 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Mu_ you just take it personal. Has nothing to do with me or you.  Just sharing ideas together.  We can disagree with each other without assuming that the other person is just playing smartass or disagreeing for the sake of disagreement. . But since that's how you Believe my situation to be.. I will leave it here and not will not open a new line with you.  Appreciate your insights btw. 

Just sharing idea's together?  Lol if thats the way you think you come off or the energy you project in your attitude of writing, I'm sorry man, but it may be time to have a honest reflection of yourself.  I know they suck, and ya maybe I am taking this a tad personal on some level, I can admit that, but man your a brick of I know it all and defensiveness.  Anyways smooth sailings, hopefully you consider anyones opinion on here, if you want to look at mine, fine, if you want to look at Nahms, fine, if you want to look at Inliytened1, fine, doesn't matter to me, but jesus man this isn't the first thread where you project a know it all attitude or end up projecting something on me or someone else as a way of not looking at yourself and idea's. 

Again I only chimed in on agreement with Nahm in hopes that you may see some truth in the reflection.  If this is to confrontational or painful for you, well I'm sorry and hope in time you can see it.

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On 11/08/2020 at 10:15 AM, Someone here said:

Is there a way out of suffering?

Yes, there is and it's called "detachment".

But then you're left with pure luck to keep you alive.

At that point, there is no ego anymore. Ego is dead, suffering is dead, but pleasure is also dead. Practically, you'd have to become a zombie.


If you have no confidence in yourself, you are twice defeated in the race of life. But with confidence you have won, even before you start.” -- Marcus Garvey

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@Mu_

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Mu_ @Someone here cigar time as we ponder reality :)

 

I stopped smoking for 4 weeks now bro lol.. Wanna make me go back?.  Btw smoking gives some Insight about how happiness and suffering go together. 


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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Just now, Someone here said:

@Mu_

I stopped smoking for 4 weeks now bro lol.. Wanna make me go back?.  Btw smoking gives some Insight about how happiness and suffering go together. 

Figure of speech.  I did too.  Nasty habit :)

And yeah typically when the ego seeks pleasure it leads to suffering haha.


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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