Is it really that bad to save sex for marriage? (Non-Religious)

[Shir]

6 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

don't place your highest hopes on marriage. Just sayin.

My advice is to be more realistic and listen and read more about other people's experiences both of relationships and marriage. Like you said, if you take marriage seriously you need to research very well among the stories of others. Everyone thinks that they're special and that their marriage is not going to be a mistake like other dumb people. Yet, I have rarely heard of any marriage that is successful. This raises an eyebrow for me. Why is this the case? You ever thought about that?

@Gesundheit I understand, yes. I realize marriage isn't perfect. 

I don't feel happy/interested in or excited to just have a "regular" relationship because it doesn't seem like anything to look forward to and it seems super juvenile to older you get. Like, I get it that ppl are happy either way and that's AWESOME but I don't think it's for me - and who knows? Maybe marriage isn't for me either but it's someone that I feel like is still a pinnacle to relationships.

I've heard of ppl that have been together for literally 9 years, got married and then divorced a year-2 years later. I wonder why that is? It does make you question stuff for sure. 

You're right though, everyone still needs to look more into "what they're getting into" when it comes to marriage, I get you. 

Sorry to hear you have no heard of any marriage that is successful though - I have heard of many lol. You see alot of them that are if you look well enough.

[Danioover9000]

@Shir  I've seen enough of your posts to say that you are very similar to religious types, how religious types can't go beyond literal meanings and is very set on beliefs is very close to religious way of life.

[Shir]

14 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

So if you have ideas of someone that they dont like would you like them to tell you nicely or at least inquire into what you mean or your reasoning or go ape shit and attack and accuse you before you have a chance to explain your intentions?

@Mu_ Are you trying to control how I should respond, Moderator? Because if that's the case then you can only control how YOU respond, not other people.

I have said my peace on the matter. If that's not welcome and you feel that I have disrespected said man (I also feel disrespected) - then by all means, I do apologize. 

[Gesundheit]

@Shir You seem very open but at the same time and to be honest I think you have a lot to learn about this topic. Don't get me wrong I'm only saying this because I don't see much nuance in how you're thinking about this whole thing. Maybe I'm wrong and I hope I am but since you show openness I thought you might wanna hear that.

Besides, Idk but I get the feeling that you actually want to have that marriage asap. And nothing wrong about that of course, but it doesn't seem entirely based on logic. I'm not sure. What do you think about that?

[Mu_]

3 minutes ago, Shir said:

@Mu_ Are you trying to control how I should respond, Moderator? Because if that's the case then you can only control how YOU respond, not other people.

I have said my peace on the matter. If that's not welcome and you feel that I have disrespected said man (I also feel disrespected) - then by all means, I do apologize. 

No I'm not trying to control how you respond, but I am asking you to put yourself on the otherside or the other shoe.  Maybe take a few hours and cool down and think about the question.  But again "if you have ideas of someone that they dont like would you like them to tell you nicely or at least inquire into what you mean or your reasoning or go ape shit and attack and accuse you before you have a chance to explain your intentions? "

For example I could assume your a total monster and will never learn anything and feel this way because its how I perceived your responses, OR I can ask and inquire and try to better understand you and your reasoning before taking actions or making aggressive comments towards you.

Do you get what I'm saying?  Your actions create the world so to say.

 

[Shir]

@Consept

8 minutes ago, Consept said:

I dont remember you saying this previously but yes that makes a lot of sense to me and i think many can relate to that as well. I would say to explore these feelings, this is the more difficult path but i think potentially you could be so strong in your beliefs because youre trying to avoid this pain and trauma. Your beliefs may protect you from facing this, it is definitely the harder path but ultimately its the one that will allow you to grow the most. Even if everything goes to plan, ie you get married and the guys perfect bla bla bla, you will still have these unaddressed issues that may affect you a lot down the line. 

I VERY much respect what you said and suggested here!!! You're right, even if the man/marriage is perfect I know deep down I have ISSUES sadly lol. I really would like to go back to Therapy one day and resolve them, for sure. I really do need to do this for myself and I apprecaite you understanding where I am coming from!

9 minutes ago, Consept said:

Yes it makes sense that you would feel this way, its the same reason why anyone sticks to any belief. It offers comfort and certainty and lets you keep belief structures up that protect you from facing things. But I would assume if youre on this forum you do want to push yourself and grow and i think this would be a good opportunity to really test those beliefs. If they are true then theres nothing to worry about but i think you can recognise somewhere that you are holding on to them for other reasons, if you can see it when others do it thats good, but seeing it in yourself is the most important. 

You know, I read this right now and I understand...yes. But at the same time, if I REALLY wanna go wild and think to myself okay, step aside and don't stick to your beliefs, I feel like it's just because of societal pressure and it's not really who I am. If I was in a postition where I was 50/50 with my beliefs and was itching to try "the other side" then I totally would meddle in it and try to go the other way but deep down? I feel like It's not for me and wouldn't give me joy, even if I go against the whole belif thing (aka I wouldn't get any joy even if I tried the 180 and decided to not stick to any belifs).

I do believe in intelligent design and I feel like there's so much to it (especially with marriage) - I think that if there's someone like me that is not even religious and I'm attracted to it - that says a lot about it. 

Btw, I feel very strongly about Panthism as well if that's any indication haha. 

I'll see how things go but I'll remember your advice to not stick to beliefs and to try and see the other side for perspective! 

[Shir]

13 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

I've seen enough of your posts to say that you are very similar to religious types, how religious types can't go beyond literal meanings and is very set on beliefs is very close to religious way of life.

@Danioover9000 Funny you say this as I am EXTREMELY SECULAR and lead a VERY secular life  To an actual religious person I would be seen as a sinner no doubt so I find it hilarious you think I'm some kind of rigid person that cannot break out of the shell. 

Being set on a belif is different than GROWING into a belif. I grew up soooooo secular, it's practically next to impossible that I ever got to any religious beliefs whatsoever. 

Like I mentioned above, I believe in intelligent design that trancends religion itself. I don't open the bible and act religous or what have you.

I am literally one of the most liberal ppl you could ever meet - the fact that I don't go and have sex is my choice and I enjoy and feel liberated with my choice. 

I don't go around saying this in my day to day life and so what you said is not something anyone has ever said about me. Like I mentioned I am very liberal and secular it's almost a joke.

[Shir]

10 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

You seem very open but at the same time and to be honest I think you have a lot to learn about this topic. Don't get me wrong I'm only saying this because I don't see much nuance in how you're thinking about this whole thing. Maybe I'm wrong and I hope I am but since you show openness I thought you might wanna hear that.

Besides, Idk but I get the feeling that you actually want to have that marriage asap. And nothing wrong about that of course, but it doesn't seem entirely based on logic. I'm not sure. What do you think about that?

@Gesundheit I am very open, yes.

Everyone has a lot to learn on any topic, let's be honest haha. 

Thank you for your honesty, I understand yes. 

I personally wouldn't say I want to have a marriage asap - if that were the case, I'd know I'm only rushing it for sex and since I am chill about it I know I'd want marriage for the right reasons. But, thanks for your concern. I appreciate it. 

Btw I think every women (that wants marriage) does get a bit panicky about getting married when they're getting older. Being 28 now, it does make me a bit...anxious? Idk. I guess if it's meant to be than I should calm down. Plus if you want kids, society really pressures you (as a woman) to do so before 35 and that also does my head in sometimes as I am still in Uni and trying to build a career and feel super pressured to do it all, much less find the perfect man and has kids in time *sigh*.

Btw, I know I seem super intense/critical in my replies to ya'll but I promise I am a very sweet Lady lol. I feel like I'm coming off super intense and mean and that's a shame. 

[Consept]

27 minutes ago, Shir said:

You know, I read this right now and I understand...yes. But at the same time, if I REALLY wanna go wild and think to myself okay, step aside and don't stick to your beliefs, I feel like it's just because of societal pressure and it's not really who I am. If I was in a postition where I was 50/50 with my beliefs and was itching to try "the other side" then I totally would meddle in it and try to go the other way but deep down? I feel like It's not for me and wouldn't give me joy, even if I go against the whole belif thing (aka I wouldn't get any joy even if I tried the 180 and decided to not stick to any belifs).

You dont necessarily have to choose one or the other ie no sex before marriage or lots of one night stands and casual sex. Just see where life takes you, for most people its probably not so much of an issue or something they think about too much, the reason why youre thinking about it is because of the issues youve mentioned previously, thats why i think the main thing is sorting those issues out and then just seeing where it takes you. Theres lots of people who never get married but have incredibly fulfilling relationships and then theres lots people who get married and have completely unfulfilled relationships and usually take whatever issues they had into the marriage, probably even more disappointed that marriage didnt solve anything. If you want a reference of these type of relationships just look at a couple of posts on this reddit sub -   https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/

But anyway you have been quite open to what people have said so i commend you for that and we're all on a journey so i hope these conversations have helped you in some way 

[Gesundheit]

6 minutes ago, Shir said:

@Gesundheit 

Everyone has a lot to learn on any topic, let's be honest haha. 

 

That's me. Granted.

6 minutes ago, Shir said:

@Gesundheit 

Btw, I know I seem super intense/critical in my replies to ya'll but I promise I am a very sweet Lady lol. I feel like I'm coming off super intense and mean and that's a shame. 

No you're totally fine, m'lady  It's just the way you hold (or perhaps present?) your ideas and opinions that seems a little bit simplistic. It's usually an indicator of how much thought you've given the subject and the amount of experience you have about it. Simplicity here means lack of information. Complexity and nuance means more comprehensive understanding. Only you can rate yourself truly, but for what it's worth it should be pointed out to you in case you didn't notice. Have you watched Leo's Spiral Dynamics series? It's very helpful for bringing in more holistic bigger picture understanding. And it explains a lot about the values you, me, and other people hold.

17 minutes ago, Shir said:

@Gesundheit 

I personally wouldn't say I want to have a marriage asap - if that were the case, I'd know I'm only rushing it for sex and since I am chill about it I know I'd want marriage for the right reasons. But, thanks for your concern. I appreciate it. 

Btw I think every women (that wants marriage) does get a bit panicky about getting married when they're getting older. Being 28 now, it does make me a bit...anxious? Idk. I guess if it's meant to be than I should calm down. Plus if you want kids, society really pressures you (as a woman) to do so before 35 and that also does my head in sometimes as I am still in Uni and trying to build a career and feel super pressured to do it all, much less find the perfect man and has kids in time *sigh*.

I'm not in a place to be able to appreciate or judge the situation correctly, but I can intuit that it's critical to you. You're an ambitious person and you have many things on your list to achieve. All I can do is wish you luck with everything.

[Roy]

I reflected on my post and yes saying "anything else is pure stupidity" was too much and I regret it.

The comparison can also be interpreted as callous so I'm sorry for that, it would have been better off to skip over this thread instead of making that remark.

I'm not sure if you read this post I made earlier @Shir but it clarifies my position better;

"I agree with you that it can be messy and people can make mistakes if they don't develop self control.

I just feel that this is something that we shouldn't retreat to the trenches of conservative tradition on.

I think celibacy and saving yourself can be a wise choice and can have a lot of benefits for the right person, I'm just not sure there is a modern well worked out way to approach and create that lifestyle in our current culture without going backwards.

Individuals need to work it out by building an understanding from a pluralistic conversation. It's too easy for them to just go back to the default conservative norm because it's already established and it's hard to go through that work yourself."

Edited August 13, 2020 by Roy

[soos_mite_ah]

6 hours ago, Shir said:

You're right, it is my choice haha. I wish people wouldn't think it's old-fashioned and respressive though becuase it certainly is 100% my choice. 

I understand that men would be frustrated with my decision, but call it tough love - they can suck it up. I'm not chaining anyone to me. They can go if it's not for them and I'm happy to let them go because I have no interest in forcing someone to abide by me nor my standards if they cannot go by them. The same way I would NEED to respect a man that doesn't want to have sex with me - I can suck it up and either respect that or let him go. I sincerely do not think it's that hard but that's my 2 cents. 

HOWEVER! I really apprecaite your thoughts and your example that you shared was actually VERY enlightening !  I could feel more why a man would be as he is according to your words. 

I don't like how people think it's repressive. I can see why that view exists and I think it's because of why people would refrain from sex historically. As a result, a lot of people tend to tie in waiting with shame around sex. 

If it's 100% your choice, I don't think you're repressing anything. In order to repress something, the feelings have to be there and denied. If your desire to have sex isn't there because you genuinely want to wait, the feelings aren't there in the first place so there is nothing to deny. That's like telling me that I'm repressing my anger by not expressing it when I'm not angry in the first place. 

As long as you aren't chaining anyone and expecting anyone to abide by your personal standards (which you aren't), there is no repression involved. 

And since some people want to bring the spiral into this, here are my thoughts: 

Purple/Red: Disregard future consequences. Have all the sex you want  with as many people you want in your tribe or empire, be guided by your primal desires. Don't consider what  other people think even if it violates consent. 

Blue: Repression because of potential consequences (whether it is STDs, infidelity, or God's wrath). Expectation to not have sex because or else you are a whore going against God's will. I wouldn't be surprised if notions of purity have come up in stage blue because of the prevalence of STDs since historically not everyone had the means to contraceptives and the only way to control people was through dogma. (Here I think it's good to integrate potential consequences and thinking ahead) 

Orange: Backlash against blue. Expectation to participate in hook up culture or else you're some repressed prude. Sex isn't some sacred thing, you just blow your load and that's it. Blue sees this desire to make sex secular as a way of potentially going back to purple/red because casual sex is seen as barbaric and orderly. (Here I think it's good to integrate the idea that sex isn't dirty, there is nothing wrong with casual sex as long as it's safe and consensual, and that there shouldn't be religious justifications for repressing sex)  

Green: Emphasis on consent. Do what feels right granted that it feels authentic and isn't rooted in society's or other people's pressure.  Don't shame people for saying yes or no. Feminism also comes in because it emphasizes how the patriarchy shames women, and sometimes men, for saying yes or no. I mention men because not all men want sex but there are notions of masculinity in the patriarchy that paints men as these sex hungry creatures and if you don't want sex, there is something wrong with you and you aren't manly. Sex is more emotionally intimate and can be held as sacred for some people (especially in the case of some new age spiritual people).  Orange has a backlash against this because why would sex be something that can be seen as sacred on an emotional level. That looks like it's regressing back to blue. (Here it's good to integrate other people's views so that they can coexist whether their views may be for casual sex ,for waiting, for embracing sexuality with someone you care about for spiritual reasons, or for things such as gay sex if that is your orientation) 

Yellow: Emphasis on understanding other perspectives. Like green, yellow wants to have a more holistic approach to understanding different people's perspectives. However, it isn't triggered like green when it comes to repression or hookup culture because it sees the rest of the spiral. Also sex is cool at yellow, there is nothing wrong with having it or not having it, but there are other things in life that catches its attention such as research and analysis of models. (Here, it's good to integrate that sex is nice but isn't a necessity for living a good life. You can let go of desires or not let go, but neither choice comes from a place of repression. This fluidity is because you aren't clinging to your sexuality) *I'm not sure about yellow tbh but this is my observation

Turquoise: I genuinely have no idea

Edited August 13, 2020 by soos_mite_ah

[Arcangelo]

@Shir Stop reppressing your sexuality you are not lying to us you are lying to yourself. You do want one night stands

[Shir]

1 minute ago, Arcangelo said:

Stop reppressing your sexuality you are not lying to us you are lying to yourself. You do want one night stands

@Arcangelo You literally cannot pay me enough to get me to have one night stands lmao. I find them so incredibly gross, you have no idea...

But hey, you do you ! 

And btw - I LOVE feeling this liberated and so called "repressing" my sexuality. I could go and have sex right now if I really wanted to - who's really being respressed here? Sure isn't me. 

[Arcangelo]

24 minutes ago, Shir said:

I could go and have sex right now if I really wanted to

Me too. Thank God prostitution is legal in my country. I can go and have an orgy RIGHT now if I wanted.

[Shir]

Just now, Arcangelo said:

Me too. Thank God prostitution is legal in my country. I can go and have an orgy RIGHT now if I wanted.

@Arcangelo Awesome, good for you. 

 

[K Ghoul]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Lol I don't know about others but I myself have changed 180° in the past decade back and forth and I still see potential for more radical changes in the decade to come so I don't know.

Of course not everyone changes like I did, but people do change to certain extents, and if they don't, they will become outdated. So it's basically like playing with fire. You're damned if you change or if you don't.

Do I win yet? 

@Gesundheit No, no win yet

We first need to define what changes we are talking about - if someone is having massive paradigm shifts that change their whole set of values 180, one day he's a buddhist sitting somewhere meditating next day he's Charles Manson and it goes back and forth, then that's one thing, and I'm pretty sure I'd notice that someone is a freak while I was still dating them. On the other hand, If you are on the path of refining yourself and gradually becoming the best version of yourself, then that's something completely different, and it's a great thing (the right woman will only inspire you more through her trust, love and support). 
 

[Preety_India]

 

16 hours ago, Consept said:

I read your original post and most of the thread and fair enough its your decision and your view and i dont think anyone would be able to convince you otherwise. However i disagree with your premise that marriage is somehow sacred. 

If you look at most of human behavior it has its roots in evolutionary biology, marriage in the past has been very different to how we see it now. Most actions were made with the express purpose of assuring reproduction of ones genes and survival. In the past and maybe to some extent today marriage was a way for a man to restrict the sexual freedom of women to ensure that his genes were passed on through his wife, if marriage wasnt there his wife could sleep with whoever and there would be no way to know who impregnated her. Also it allowed the man to sleep with other women and maybe impregnate them but even if that didnt work the wife was still there and she would face harsh repercussions were she to sleep with anyone else. 

From the womans side their goal, evolution wise, is to have kids and make sure those kids are looked after. So their actions are to not only have sex and reproduce but also make sure that they are seen as having a good reputation so that a partner can trust them not to sleep with others so that hes comfortable to stay with her knowing the kids are his. This is why women defend their reputation as if they have a bad one its less likely a man will settle down with them. Its why women may lie about how many partners theyve had and claim less and a man would do the opposite. 

It should also be noted that marrying for 'love' is a relatively new phenomenon, traced back to around 150 years ago, before then you would marry to join families or for political and social gain, many marriages were arranged. Really marriage was a way to structure a blue society, similar to what some people like Jordan Peterson advocate today. So essentially marriage was a construct to benefit men and sexually control women. Also worth keeping in mind a lot of women were diagnosed by doctors as having hysteria (being horny) in which the treatment was for the doctor to masturbate them. 

So that brings us to today where it feels like women are now the ones pushing for marriage, we may say that they have been convinced that the values set in place by men have been internalised and through modern marketing, disney films etc, marriage has been given a romantic and all encompassing value by women. Ultimately society would want people to get married as that can keep them under control, and thats not necessarily a bad thing, but this is why i dont think theres anything sacred in a societal construct. The fact that people say its sacred goes to show how good the marketing was for it. 

I believe these evolutionary factors are the main reasons people would get married, have sex etc especially from SD stage red to orange, once you get to green and above i feel that you can start realising what truly loving someone entails. Most marriages will occur from red to orange so if most are not aware of what truly loving another is then just because they get married why would it automatically become sacred and deeper, in truth its just a story to wrap around the reality. 

I would encourage you to explore some of these ideas that ive tried to sum up, as i think the way you are strictly tied to your beliefs can actually limit your growth as a person. As @Preety_India said, sex without marriage can be incredibly meaningful, more so than married sex. If you just have one view, that its all about one night stands and whatnot you miss out on the reality of what it actually is.     

That was beautifully written. 

It kinda opened my eyes to a lot of things actually. I didn't know so much about the history of marriage tbh  kinda learned a lot and it makes a lot of sense now. 

You are very articulate. Keep up. You can dissect deeper concepts much better than anyone I've seen. 

Great analysis. I never thought of marriage historically actually, you're right we are so brainwashed into its idea. 

Thanks for mentioning me in the post or else I'd have never discovered it. 

 

[Arcangelo]

On 8/10/2020 at 8:49 PM, Shir said:

I am denying my own sexual needs, wants and desires in saving sex for marriage.

That's called repressing your sexuality. Stop that because you will create a sex shadow so when you do get married you will cheat on your husband

[Shir]

5 hours ago, Arcangelo said:

That's called repressing your sexuality. Stop that because you will create a sex shadow so when you do get married you will cheat on your husband

@Arcangelo How am I respressing my sexuality if I just said I could get sex right away, if I really wanted to? 

You seem awefully concerned about me respressing my sexuality when in fact I told you I feel so much more liberated denying my sexual wants/desires. If I could go back - I STILL would do the same. Even more so, tbh !

I don't cheat - that's a character issue, not a "I repressed my sexuality issue". People should be GROWN adults, and get divorced if they feel like they're about to cheat. 

My character is better than that, believe me. 

I look forward to giving my full sexuality to my (future) Husband.