Enlightenment vs Discipline & Willpower (vs Love vs No-Mind vs Fear vs Courage)

[Some Fella]

Sure, willpower is useful to help us build habits like silencing our mind or meditating in the morning, but what role does it play beyond this (beyond facilitating the techniques needed for spiritual insight & integration)? How important is it in & of itself? To what degree do you prioritize it personally?

I remember reading a comment from my favourite guru @Leo Gura on this that really surprised, but also intrigued me!

Here's the direct quote:

"Personally I don't like practices where I have to force myself to do something. To me harsh discipline doesn't feel loving or right. I don't like that brutal Zen approach to spirituality. But some people do.

These days I prefer effortless approaches. The danger with that is, you can get lazy with it. So I certainly see the value of discipline. But ultimately I want my life to be so smooth and effortless that I don't have to force myself to do anything. So that's what I'm working towards. If I have to discipline myself all the time, to me that isn't the highest level of being. Life should be effortless."

Source: 

What are your thoughts on this? Sounds like some very deeply considered & VERY high-level stuff to me!

In all of my personal contemplations, willpower/bravery has showed up time & time again to be one of the biggest factors in living a happy life. In my personal experience, I would place this as third place in terms of contribution to my happiness, when compared with other self help techniques/principles/values. First place is the degree to which I can silence my mind (the result of which is sustaining jhanas throughout everyday life & control over my emotions). Second place is kindness & compassionate living, which certainly sounds sexier than having an empty head all day, but the belief-based/desire-based nature of it (for me at least) puts it in a similar lane to having lots of willpower.

What role has willpower & it's aquisition played for you guys? Thoughts on Leo's take? Did it surprise you too?

What about silencing the mind? How important has that been for you guys? More so than discipline? Less so? Do tell :D.

What is the ratio of time you split between increasing your willpower vs enlightenment work? Do you even bother with the willpower stuff?

To take this a step deeper, what IS willpower/courage/etc? After all, if fear is the opposite of love & courage is an antidote to fear...all the more food for thought!

Respectfully,

Some Fella

[4201]

3 hours ago, Some Fella said:

What role has willpower & it's aquisition played for you guys? Thoughts on Leo's take? Did it surprise you too?

What about silencing the mind? How important has that been for you guys? More so than discipline? Less so? Do tell :D.

What is the ratio of time you split between increasing your willpower vs enlightenment work? Do you even bother with the willpower stuff?

To take this a step deeper, what IS willpower/courage/etc? After all, if fear is the opposite of love & courage is an antidote to fear...all the more food for thought!

1) I fully agree with Leo's take. If you need willpower, isn't it because there is resistance? Why not investigate that resistance rather than trying to force a behavior that is resisted? 

2) Silencing the mind works better for me when I understand why and how the inner monologue is wrong. I'd rather listen to the mind and truly consider it than ignore it. When it is properly listened to, it silences itself for me.

3) I don't spend time increasing my willpower but I spend time trying to figure out how I'm shooting myself in the foot. When this is figured out (which is always obvious and overlooked) then I tend to flow easily in my work which doesn't require any willpower since I enjoy doing it.

4) To me willpower is the ability to do something that you fully or partially are in disagreement with. e.g. I want to work hard but there exists a me that is lazy. WIllpower is the ability to ignore part of what is believed. When in a state of no-self, it becomes obsolete. I do value the usage of willpower to get in the state of no-self though, as then it becomes effortless to do what's best.

Not sure I would associate this with courage. Courage could be defined as the ability to overcome fear? I haven't fully realized what fear is yet so I can't say much about that topic.

 

Everybody got their deep issues and beliefs that limit them in life. When you live with a crippling belief, ignoring those bad beliefs using willpower can have lots of value to generate results in life. So I'm not saying willpower is bad or should not be developped, but targetting the fundamental beliefs that limit the mind is more important. If you encounter resistance while doing meditation, look at it! Decompose it. What is it made out of? Where did it come from? Can you let it go? Those are the type of questions I would ask myself.

 

[Marten]

What takes courage is to surrender to Love, to being, to letting go. To be really honest, genuine and authentic. Everything IS LOVE. So there's no need to force onself to do this or that. There are no expectations. You are so very loved exactly as you are. Totally loved. You are perfect. It will bring you to tears. Relief and reassurance beyond anything else. Unimaginable until you experience it.

Forcing has to do with fear. If everything is Love, then what is there to be afraid of?

[Some Fella]

11 hours ago, 4201 said:

If you need willpower, isn't it because there is resistance?

@4201 Cool perspective. I think you pointed out something really important, but too easily overlooked: The need for willpower implies a lack of integration/wholeness to begin with.

11 hours ago, 4201 said:

Why not investigate that resistance rather than trying to force a behavior that is resisted? 

Good technique. Feels compassionate. Me likey.

11 hours ago, 4201 said:

Not sure I would associate this with courage. Courage could be defined as the ability to overcome fear? I haven't fully realized what fear is yet so I can't say much about that topic.

 

In my contemplations, courage & willpower show up to be identical. Fear=resistance/undesire, Love=acceptance/desire. As you know, ironically we discover that maximum undesire (desiring nothing at all) turns out to just result in maximum love (desiring everything exactly the way that it is). harks back to that theme of things coming full circle that Leo always talks about. Unconditionality deletes duality.

[Marten]

19 hours ago, Some Fella said:

In my contemplations, courage & willpower show up to be identical.

I'd say willpower has more to do with ego and courage is letting go of ego and melting into Love.

[Seraphim]

@4201 I agree! The problem is that someone can be quite spiritually evolved but still be disconnected from their real self/personality, in that case they still need willpower to function in society. Recently I found a way to become more like my real self, not the absolute, highest self but my 5th dimensional aspect, and the result is that I feel like working almost all the time, things like computer games, entertainment and other nonsense like that is not what our real self wants to do. Work and chores can be effortless and free from resistance!

[Nahm]

On 8/10/2020 at 7:17 PM, Some Fella said:

what IS willpower/courage/etc?

Fear is not the opposite of love. Ain’t two. ?

That single belief dualizes experientially what can not be dualized in actuality, and in kind one has created a biggest picture / reality view, of a duality of fear & will power / courage. It’s relative, so courage & developing willpower could be best for now, but motive & motivation inevitably runs it’s course for one on the path, and in-spirit, inspiration, is the effortlessness sought & found. All is being done for you, as you are the appearance of all, making it seem that there is a ‘you’ ‘in here’ to begin with. Formlessness can not know effort or will, just as infinite can not know finite. Similarly, love has no mind. Never did. Just a wonderfully intrinsic sense of humor. 

[Marten]

@Nahm 

[dvdas]

Letting Go: The Pathway of Surrender 

Book by David R. Hawkins

[Some Fella]

@dvdas Moved to the top of my list! Thanks!

[RedLine]

There is a point where tryhard and letgo converge and look like the same.