Democratic "Socialist" Countries 2020

[Nak Khid]

 

more info:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/democratic-socialist-countries

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Nak Khid

[Leo Gura]

Those European countries are not properly socialist. They are social democratic countries.

[Nak Khid]

At the link they distinguish the terms,  Democratic Socialism vs. Socialism

This is why I put the word "Socialist" in quotes 

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The origins of democratic socialism can be traced to 19th-century utopian socialist thinkers and the British Chartist movement that somewhat differed in their goals yet all shared the essence of democratic decision making and public ownership of the means of production as positive characteristics of the society they advocated for.Socialism was coined by Henri de Saint-Simon. 

 In the late 19th century and early 20th century, democratic socialism was also influenced by social democracy. The gradualist form of socialism promoted by the British Fabian Society and Eduard Bernstein's evolutionary socialism in Germany influenced the development of democratic socialism. Democratic socialism is what most socialists understand by the concept of socialism. It may be a very broad or more limited concept, referring to all forms of socialism that are democratic and reject an authoritarian Marxist–Leninist state. Democratic socialism can include libertarian socialism, market socialism, reformist socialism and revolutionary socialism as well as ethical socialism, liberal socialism, social democracy and some forms of state socialism and utopian socialism.

Many social democrats "refer to themselves as socialists or democratic socialists" and some "use or have used these terms interchangeably". Others argue that "there are clear differences between the three terms, and preferred to describe their own political beliefs by using the term 'social democracy' only". Social democracy is the evolutionary form of democratic socialism that aims to gradually and peacefully achieve socialism through established political processes such as the parliament.In political science, democratic socialism and social democracy are largely seen as synonyms and as overlapping or otherwise not being mutually exclusivewhile they are distinguished in journalistic use, in some cases sharply.While social democrats continue to call and describe themselves as democratic socialists or simply socialists, the meaning of democratic socialism and social democracy effectively reversed. Democratic socialism originally represented socialism achieved by democratic means and usually resulted in reformism whereas social democracy included both reformist and revolutionary wings. With the association of social democracy as policy regime and the development of the Third Way,social democracy became almost exclusively associated with reformism while democratic socialism came to include communist and revolutionary tendencies.

As social democracy originated as a revolutionary socialist or communist movement, one distinction made to separate the modern versions of democratic socialism and social democracy is that the former can include revolutionary means while the latter asserts that the only acceptable constitutional form of government is representative democracy under the rule of law. Many social democrats "refer to themselves as socialists or democratic socialists" and some "use or have used these terms interchangeably"

Marxist–Leninists also tended to distinguish what they termed socialist democracy from democratic socialism, a term which they associated pejoratively to "reformism" and "social democracy

In the United States, Bernie Sanders, who was the 37th Mayor of Burlington,  became the first self-described democratic socialist to be elected to the Senate from Vermont in 2006. In 2016, Sanders made a bid for the Democratic Party presidential candidate, thereby gaining considerable popular support, particularly among the younger generation and the working class. Although he ultimately lost the nomination to Hillary Clinton, a centrist candidate who was later defeated by Donald Trump, Sanders ran again in the 2020 Democratic Party presidential primaries,briefly becoming the front-runner in February until Super Tuesday in March and suspending his campaign in April.Sanders would remain on the ballot in states that had not yet voted to further influence the Democratic Party's platform as he did in 2016.[354]

Since his praise of the Nordic model indicated focus on social democracy as opposed to views involving social ownership, it has been argued that the term democratic socialism has become a misnomer for social democracy in American politics

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Nak Khid

[Peter-Andre]

@Nak Khid They are still not democratic socialist countries because they're not socialist. The proper term is social democratic as Leo pointed out. But semantics aside, how is the term defined for this map? Why is Norway considered a democratic socialist country, but not New Zealand for instance?

[Nak Khid]

1 hour ago, Peter-Andre said:

@Nak Khid They are still not democratic socialist countries because they're not socialist. The proper term is social democratic as Leo pointed out. But semantics aside, how is the term defined for this map? Why is Norway considered a democratic socialist country, but not New Zealand for instance?

It's defined in the link 

[Nak Khid]

Anybody who thinks they have a better list of Democratic Socialist/ Social Democracies please feel free to post. the OP is not definitive 

[Peter-Andre]

@Nak Khid Looks like this map only shows countries that have significant socialist parties. It doesn't actually seem to talk about the actual laws of those countries. Even so, the definition on the website is pretty vague. They say "Under Democratic socialism, the ownership of private property is limited.", but how limited does it have to be to be considered "democratic socialism"? Private property is certainly still a common thing in Norway for instance. I don't really think it's anywhere near as close to socialism as people seem to think it is (speaking as a Norwegian). I just feel like the website doesn't give us a clear enough definition for democratic socialism. It's hard to come up with a list of countries if the criteria aren't very clear.

The website seems to just be talking about social democracy, which is quite different. I couldn't find this particular quote on their website, but you shared it in this thread earlier and it sums up my thoughts on the issue pretty well.

Quote

Since his praise of the Nordic model indicated focus on social democracy as opposed to views involving social ownership, it has been argued that the term democratic socialism has become a misnomer for social democracy in American politics

The recent popularity of socialism in the states doesn't actually seem to have that much to do with traditional socialism, but rather social democracy. Maybe I'm just arguing over semantics here, but I don't like to conflate social democracy with socialism.

[Peter-Andre]

@datamonster I was wondering the same thing. The website doesn't seem to have a consistent definition of democratic socialism.

[Nak Khid]

Here are three Wikipedia entries 

 

SOCIALISM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
 

DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism#:~:text=Democratic socialism is defined as,socialist states and Marxism–Leninism.

 

SOCIAL DEMOCRACY 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Note that socialism doesn't start with Marx and Engels
 

But  please give me any definition you think  suffice for 

a) Democratic Socialism

and 

b) Social Democracy 

 

I need concise working definitions of these not the long winded Wikipedia entries where they give the whole history and all the debate about the terms.   Please give me a one paragraph definitions of each and then a list of countries that fit each category.
Bernie Sanders says he is a Democratic Socialist so:

1)  Do any Democratic Socialist counties exist ?

2)  Is Democratic Socialist a misnomer where there is no example of a Democratic Socialist country 
because socialism is incompatible with democracy? 

3) Do any Social Democracies exist? 

thanks

 

[supremeyingyang]

17 hours ago, Nak Khid said:

Anybody who thinks they have a better list of Democratic Socialist/ Social Democracies please feel free to post. the OP is not definitive 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states#Current_socialist_states

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It baffles me that so less people get the difference between Social Democratic and Socialist. Let me put it that way: The US made up it's own Definition and it's not good if you talk to Europeans - just like the 'Imperial and US customary measurement systems' and Countries with the good ol' metric System^^

[roar]

There are, and have never been, a democratic socialist country on this earth.

[supremeyingyang]

@roar

aw c'mon.. not real scotsman at it's best. maybe not by the unreachable rule book, but plenty self proclaimed...

i mean we can strive to make societies more fair, yeah. but this is not that easy as the last century proofed. so the intention is good, the way they implemented it - not.

There are many problems with the Socialist Theory in Application (yes!^^). ...aaaand even if you could remove the Problems you would need a majority in green to make it happen.. good luck with that even in the advanced countries in the next 50 years.

If you want i can qualify what I mean  

Edited August 3, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[roar]

@supremeyingyang The countries that have claimed to be socialist, have just been stage red oligarchies/dictatorships, with need for a religion/ideology as a foundation for the propaganda and social control.  Norway was pretty close though, up until the 1980s, when capitalism started nibbling on us (because of oil).  I am all for a socialist democratic country, to be fair, but it's not happening in Norway at the moment.  

[Nak Khid]

20 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

There is no properly Democratic Socialist country on this Earth.

That article is cringe and absolutely inaccurate, and does the time and time flaw that liberals make repeatedly, which is confusing Welfare States with Socialism. Bernie Sanders does this same mistake by pointing to countries that are not Socialist to provide examples such as Denmark and Sweden, and all that does is distort the conversation

Here, refer to this article, I know rational wiki is frowned upon this forum, but they wrote a great article, which provides the most accurate description of the different types of Socialism:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Socialism

And here's what Democratic Socialism is compared to regular Socialism:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Socialism#Democratic_socialism

 

 

 So according to another entry on Rational Wiki:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Social democracy

Disagreements with Marx's and Engels' revolutionary approach to achieving socialism occurred outside and then inside the Marxist movement. The most devastating internal condemnation of the revolutionary approach came from revisionist Marxist Eduard Bernstein, who had been a close friend of Marx and Engels and presumed heir apparent of their views, who came to believe that capitalism could be gradually reformed into socialism through reformist parliamentary means and he rejected class conflict. Bernstein's views formed the basis of the beginning of what is now known as social democracy. Among the social democratic parties, attempts to reconcile their reformist efforts with the prevailing post-war economic order, resulted in many of them redefining "socialism" to no longer mean social ownership of the means of production, but to a vaguer conception of "socialism" as support of social justice and acceptance of Keynesian capitalism.

 

 

[Nak Khid]

@Husseinisdoingfine  which type of government do you prefer? 

[supremeyingyang]

56 minutes ago, roar said:

@supremeyingyang The countries that have claimed to be socialist, have just been stage red oligarchies/dictatorships, with need for a religion/ideology as a foundation for the propaganda and social control.  Norway was pretty close though, up until the 1980s, when capitalism started nibbling on us (because of oil).  I am all for a socialist democratic country, to be fair, but it's not happening in Norway at the moment.  

well, the question remains what you mean with socialistic country? do you mean just a country which implements a system which is fairer and thus more social compared with how it's today or do you mean a derivat from marxism, which i claim is not able to work at all.