Leo Gura

Who Killed The America Dream?

21 posts in this topic

Good stuff:

 


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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I wasn’t expecting Israel to be the one messing with our elections. ?

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He predicts in 20 years our dollar cease to be the international currency. I was hoping that the old republicans pass away from old age and the new generation would make radical change. If congress was more like Alexandria Cortez. Is that delusional thinking? 

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@Lindsay I don't think AOC is the end-all, be-all for American congress members, though I do like her.

 

To answer your question, I would say that this is not the most enlightened way to think about this subject. Based on Chris Hedges' talk, we need a complete overhaul of American politics before things become irrevocably damaged. If I had to come up with a solution, it would include wealth redistribution (with UBI) and giving people more power than corporations to influence politics, probably through what Andrew Yang calls "Democracy Dollars," where each voting adult gets a certain amount of money which can only be used to donate to a political candidate.

 

That would have the same effect as getting money out of politics.


"Yes is the answer... And you know that! Fasho!

Yes is surrender! You gotta let it... you gotta let it GO!" - John Lennon, Mind Games

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This is a bleak message from Chris Hedges. I feel helpless and hopeless in a way. What can we do to help avert the collapse of the US and its global influence?

 

All I know is to work on myself spiritually, to serve others, and to donate to politics that would benefit the collective.


"Yes is the answer... And you know that! Fasho!

Yes is surrender! You gotta let it... you gotta let it GO!" - John Lennon, Mind Games

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Chris Hedges has some good ideas, but don't expect him to give a deeper spiritual context to all this.

Collapse is not the only possibility. There is a lot of untapped progressive potential going forward and you as an individual can do a lot to build a good life.

The problem with listening too much socialist political commentary is that it makes your thinking so collectivist that you forget that as an individual you can do a lot of stuff to escape wage slavery and build a good life.

Listen to socialists, but don't forget to build your life. Don't buy into their excuses.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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@Leo Gura sometimes i really struggle to understand what you are trying to say.

In one hand, you say how amazing chris hedges's speech are. 

On the other hand, you say don't buy it too much.

What is that supposed to mean?

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10 hours ago, Lindsay said:

He predicts in 20 years our dollar cease to be the international currency.

I predict that this will happen within 2 years. The US is monetizing too much of its own debt. 

Look at Gold reaching record-high prices. Look at cryptocurrencies reaching new highs.

The world is trying to diversify away from the dollar and we are discovering in which currency we can place our faith. 

2 hours ago, Annoynymous said:

@Leo Gura sometimes i really struggle to understand what you are trying to say.

In one hand, you say how amazing chris hedges's speech are. 

On the other hand, you say don't buy it too much.

What is that supposed to mean?

Think for yourself. Then you will find what is truly amazing. 

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12 hours ago, NatureB said:

@Lindsay I don't think AOC is the end-all, be-all for American congress members, though I do like her.

 

To answer your question, I would say that this is not the most enlightened way to think about this subject. Based on Chris Hedges' talk, we need a complete overhaul of American politics before things become irrevocably damaged. If I had to come up with a solution, it would include wealth redistribution (with UBI) and giving people more power than corporations to influence politics, probably through what Andrew Yang calls "Democracy Dollars," where each voting adult gets a certain amount of money which can only be used to donate to a political candidate.

 

That would have the same effect as getting money out of politics.

I didn’t say AOC was the win all. I know she’s stage green. But she is demonized by the entire right and she’s demonized by moderate Democrats. Most Americans think socialism is evil. Corporate America convinced the population that it’s evil and they started to do so in the 1950s so there are multiple generations that have been brainwashed  to fear Marx. “It doesn’t work In practice and looks good on paper.” I’m so tired of the arguments with all or nothing thinking. I’m so tired of having to explain the need for a balanced system. I’m so tired of having to avoid using trigger words like socialism because that automatically closes republican and moderate Democrats minds. It instantly invalidates your whole arguement because they are so afraid of communism that they don’t even want to understand what communism is about. And I’m not trying to say communism is the solution or that it’s better. Extremes of anything is dangerous because we are all at different levels. And I’m not against democratizing the top ceos of large corporations. I’m not against term limits on ceos, Congress, and other authority figures. Corporate America had the media on their side since the 1960s. They are the ones who broke up the unions. That’s what he means by the lefts inability to organize. Corporate America sold the idea that free markets is equivalent to freedom. But like Chomsky says, it’s just not true. If we really believed in free markets we wouldn’t put tariffs on Mexican grown tomatoes that are cheaper than tomatoes grown domestically. Our system has been decaying since 1950s. It’s people like AOC that point out the root problems and because she has socialist ideas she is automatically invalidated. I was saying that maybe the older generation is so brainwashed and unable to think about the pros and cons of the other side that it would be better to just wait it out until they naturally die and no longer vote. Just seems like republicans are so desperate.

Edited by Lindsay

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They use religion to speak to stage blue and that is another jab. Our constitution was created by stage orange and it’s like somehow stage blue ignored separation of church and state. Stage orange let it happen because stage blue is so much easier to manipulate and control. Now a Cold War with China? Our new enemy? The driving justification of spending so much on the military? Just like he says, communist Russia collapsed from within. It imploded because there was no balance. A bad mixture of authoritarian radical left communism that demonized the rich and dehumanized and revenge oppressed.  Stage blue majority Christians demonized all other religions and science. Stage orange science demonizes all religious people. I was listening to Krauss interview Chomsky and it bothered me that he interrupted Chomsky when Chomsky said “human design.” I think Krauss is intelligent,  I was just annoyed that he couldn’t allow Chomsky to authentically explain what he means just because Krauss is anti God and can’t let the word “design” be used.  It’s ok To believe in partial truths. I don’t care how you got your ideas. As long as the core principle is the same. 

Edited by Lindsay

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9 hours ago, Annoynymous said:

@Leo Gura sometimes i really struggle to understand what you are trying to say.

In one hand, you say how amazing chris hedges's speech are. 

On the other hand, you say don't buy it too much.

What is that supposed to mean?

Of course. Nuanced thinking is required.

Hedges makes some great critiques of the system, but his worldview is also biased and not the highest. His understanding of spirituality is lacking. And he's has no understanding of development psychology (SD, etc.)

There's not a single person in political commentary who you can take as having all the answers. Which is why our politics is so filled with problems. Virtually no one has found the real answers. We have to pioneer the answers.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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@Leo Gura yet chris almost perfectly described how stage blue people thinks ( i am refering to your blog post). So what is he actually missing? I guess connecting the dots?

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7 minutes ago, Annoynymous said:

@Leo Gura yet chris almost perfectly described how stage blue people thinks ( i am refering to your blog post). So what is he actually missing? I guess connecting the dots?

He's still subtly demonizing them.

He's still not seeing the full scope of the relativity of worldviews, including his own. I see his approach is solid Green. It's good, but still limited.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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6 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

@Leo Gura I'm wondering, in the spiral dynamics bible, it says that the next step is stage Green economics is Social Democracy (page 315, where it says Political and Economic Matrix), but this new wave of progressive activists are calling themselves 'Socialists'.

It makes little difference.

The two are not incompatible.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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@Annoynymous nuance nuance nuance. All truths are relative. It’s a possibility that America could collapse but it’s not the only one.

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On 7/31/2020 at 10:33 AM, Husseinisdoingfine said:

@Leo Gura I'm wondering, in the spiral dynamics bible, it says that the next step is stage Green economics is Social Democracy (page 315, where it says Political and Economic Matrix), but this new wave of progressive activists are calling themselves 'Socialists'.

 

On 7/31/2020 at 10:33 AM, Husseinisdoingfine said:

 

 

On 7/31/2020 at 10:33 AM, Husseinisdoingfine said:

 

Sorry about the repeated stuff above. Funny enough, the forum software will not allow one to edit-out a quotation once in place. And even reloading the page does not get rid of it! Whatever.

Just wanted to say for the record, from someone who has studied this stuff: social democracy differs a lot from socialism.

Under socialism, the people, by way of the state, actually own the means of production, the corporations. Under some forms of socialism, private corporations exist and can make profits, but they are under strict control by the state and must behave in a way that benefits the whole nation and the people, not just their own stockholders, execs, etc.; see for example the PRC, which is set up this way (they call it "socialism with Chinese characteristics", referring to their particular form of it).  In socialist theory this is called the "dictatorship of the proletariat", i.e. the state is organized by and for the common people, the proles, rather than the bourgeoisie, the wealthy. One result of this, a significant one, in the PRC, is that a larger percentage of the GDP goes to the workers every year; whereas in the U.S., worker share of GDP has gone down every year for decades. The result has been that hundreds of millions in the PRC have been lifted out of poverty over the last 30 years; while in the U.S. over the same period tens of millions have descended into either poverty or precarity. Inequality here is now at levels not seen since the Gilded Age.

Social democracy, in contrast, prevails in Europe (in stronger forms), the Scandinavian nations (in still stronger forms), and in the U.S. (much weaker form). Social democracy is just capitalism with some safety-nets built in. The safety nets can vary a great deal; that's what I meant by "strong" vs. "weak". Strong social democracies, like in Scandinavia, have extensive social services and programs to meet pretty much everyone's needs, at least the essentials. No one goes hungry or homeless. In the U.S., a very weak social democracy, the safety net is riddled with holes, millions slip through them and DO go hungry and homeless, and so on. Notably, medical care is in the U.S. is now mostly for the wealthy or the boomers on Medicare.  In strong social democracies, health care is universal, a basic service for all.

The capitalistic U.S. is a "dictatorship of the bourgeoisie", i.e. the state is organized by and for the bourgeoisie, the wealthy and their adjutants. The common people get scraps, if they are lucky. This is nowhere more evident than just the last few months, with $trillions$ going to the corporations, the military-industrial complex, and the wealthy, and a pittance going to the people truly in need. Our social democracy is in tatters and may not survive at all. Might get truly ugly.


Re: "the next step in stage Green economics is Social Democracy". I beg to differ. Social democracy is stage orange. HIGH orange, I would say, meaning capitalism with essential civilizing modifications (social programs) so that no one starves. That would be in contrast to low orange, like     Victorian/Dickensian Britain: completely unchecked, unmodified capitalism with some people literally starving to death, and most living in misery. I suppose you could call social democracy orange with a patina of light green. But full-bore GREEN economics, where the productive forces of orange capitalism are more or less completely controlled by the collective, is socialism, not mere social democracy. The PRC is the leading example of this in the world today: mostly green though having partaken (since Deng) generously of orange, as developmental strategy. They are becoming more green all the time, and are heading toward communism, a more advanced stage, later in this century if things go well. Communism would be second-tier economics, if we make it that far; i.e. if humans do not blow up or burn up the planet.

 

Edited by alan2102
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3 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

 

"the whole premise of Social Democracy is the working class gets partial ownership"

No, sorry, that is not the premise of social democracy. Hasn't been for a century. Early on, there existed radical social democrats (R Luxembourg, etc.) of whom that might be said, but they are long gone. As social democracy has actually evolved, i.e. in the real world, the working class never gets ownership. They might get a nice basket of compensatory goodies, but no ownership, and certainly no classless egalitarian society (the real goal of socialism, and essential to any worthy definition of green). I'm not putting it down; just stating facts.

"My goodness, cool it with the Marxist ideology."

Why should I? When something is right, its right. Or when useful, then useful. The phrases in question are just useful shorthand for rather obvious realities.

"Marx is very wrong in the sense that he thinks that the end of Capitalism in inevitable"

Maybe so. I said nothing about the end of capitalism being inevitable. To the contrary, I said that the U.S.' social democracy is in tatters and on the verge of collapse. Socialism is unlikely to replace it, and sure as hell is not "inevitable"! More likely things will devolve into the opposite, an ugly fascism/neo-feudalism.

Marx made many mistakes. Just like Wilber and "SD integral" make many mistakes.

"There are many forms of Green vmeme, Social Democracy is one of them"

Disagree, though  you'll note that I did say that SocDem had a transitional/in-between flavor to it. "High orange" (greenish hue).

SocDem does not today have any radical or revolutionary collectivist content; it is merely reformist.  Same-old same-old individualistic orange, just modified so as to make capitalism palatable to people with a conscience, and mostly in order to allow continued function of the orange capitalist system. SocDem is actually ANTI-radical and ANTI-revolutionary; the main purpose of it is to undermine revolutionary collectivist energies. A great example of this is FDR's New Deal, very social democratic, and the purpose of it was to prevent violent socialist revolution (which was a real possibility at that time). FDR served his class, the wealthy class, and saved their asses from revolution, and possibly for many of them, execution. SocDem is orange's way of preventing progress to green. If you can buy off the working class with a basket of goodies to sate their individual needs, they won't revolt and insist on a classless, egalitarian society (green).

The most charitable way to describe SocDem is that it is has a superficial vaguely-greenish appearance, and does in fact accomplish some modest measure of green's social objectives -- the ones that can be accomplished without fundamental challenge of the individualistic orange system. (And if there is no such challenge, then it has not truly been transcended, has it? No transcendence, but just trying to work within, to accommodate; i.e. it is STUCK.) The least charitable way to describe it is that it is fake green, a dodge calculated to ensconce orange capitalism and undermine the possibility of real green -- social advancement up the spiral. It was quite successful at exactly that in the U.S.  Progress up the spiral was aborted, and the revolutionary energies were dissipated in silly individualistic/solipsistic/narcissistic bullshit (identity politics, third-wave feminism, etc.). The result is that the U.S. stalled at orange and, because now long past its sell-by date, it is an orange increasingly mean and degenerate and riddled with impossible contradictions, on the verge of collapse/disintegration. The evidence for this is now all around us, just read the news. This is the fruit of the failure to move up the spiral to green, when the times have demanded such a move.

 

Edited by alan2102
tweaks

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