Zen Master Examines Absurdity Of Post-Modernism

[Focus Shift]

This is an excerpt from a larger interview with Doshin Roshi, in which he examines the shadow of post-modern, stage green thinking. It's extremely relevant in this post-truth, virtue signalling, social media driven environment where dialogue currently takes place. It's a great reminder that all of this is part of the evolutionary process toward higher and higher states of consciousness. No matter what stage of the spiral, there is always a shadow to be vigilant of. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Focus Shift

[lmfao]

@Focus Shift I think one of the very valid criticisms of green is it's virtue signalling nature. Stuck in games of labelling people as good or bad rather than just focusing on troubleshooting a problem and solving like yellow would. 

[Focus Shift]

@lmfao Absolutely, I love the troubleshooting process of Yellow  

[Extreme Z7]

Virtue Signalling is a meaningless term that virtually every stage on the spiral does (except perhaps Beige). Don't fall for the right-wing talking point that it's exclusively a Stage Green thing.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Extreme Z7

[Focus Shift]

@Extreme Z7 Of course, right wingers have preachy, virtue signalling tendencies as well. However, our society is moving into a more stage green direction, so it is more obvious and pervasive. The point being, we always have more evolving to do

Edited July 26, 2020 by Focus Shift

[Focus Shift]

I thought it was interesting hearing this from a Zen Master. Doshin Roshi is also big on spiral dynamics/integral theory. 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Focus Shift

[Heart of Space]

22 minutes ago, Focus Shift said:

I thought it was interesting hereing this from a Zen Master. Doshin Roshi is also big on spiral dynamics/integral theory. 

 

Man, he's so apocalyptic in his view of the future.  

[Focus Shift]

@Heart of Space How's he apocalyptic? There is always turmoil, it is evolution. Every step in the evolutionary process has its challenges.

[Heart of Space]

8 minutes ago, Focus Shift said:

@Heart of Space How's he apocalyptic? There is always turmoil, it is evolution. Every step in the evolutionary process has its challenges.

Did you see his comments regarding what's coming in the future?  At first he was vague saying he didn't want to say what he see's coming, implying something very dark for the future of the world.  And then brought up the question, "what weapons will WWIII be fought with?  WWIV will be fought with sticks and Stones."  I mean if those aren't apocalyptic statements I don't know what is.  

I also think he unfairly stereotypes green thinking.  Smart and well spoken, but his old is showing.  

[Leo Gura]

It amazes me how these Integral Tier 2 guys just dismiss Green as something toxic to quickly skip over. That is such an anti-Integral take, violating the very core lesson of developmental psychology which is that you cannot just skip over stages.

And it amazes me that they take a reactionary like JP seriously at all, as though he's not part of a regressive right-wing movement. To even parrot JP's talking point of cultural-marxists and Green as leading to gulgs is already to yield too much ground to idiocy and a fundamental misunderstanding of Spiral Dynamics.

These Integral folks are naive about politics and they discount the power of true, healthy, solid Green.

American society is nowhere near solid Green. So they cannot be Integral Yellow at any meaningful scale. By to ignore this just feeds right-wing reactionaries and fascists, making Integral people useful enlightened idiots for the right-wing.

For solid Green to emerge capitalism just be significantly reformed and the workplace democratized. The key missing piece is that economically America is nowhere near Green even though on cultural issues we are more advanced. It's the economy which matters the most now, not cultural issues.

Basically, here's my new rule: any public intellectual who takes JP's political ideas seriously is not serious. You're not a serious intellectual unless you can see through JP's bullshit instantly. We need to have higher standards for public intellectuals.

And here's another rule: any public intellectual who takes Trump or the current right-wing movement seriously, is not an intellectual but a joke and his work should simply be dismissed without any further argument.

So, it's a very simple litmus test. You can just ask any public intellectual: Does Trump's right-wing movement have any intellectual legitimacy? And if they don't instantly say, NO, you can just laugh them out of the room. And if any public intellectual says they voted for Trump, or will vote for Trump again, they are instantly disqualified as worth listening to other than for purposes of mockery and zoological study.

[Focus Shift]

@Leo Gura Maybe all Americans aren't sipping on green juice and not shaving the armpits quite yet. However, Millennials and Zoomers don't exactly strike me as systematic thinkers either  Introducing more compassion and humanity to Capitalism is great. The problem I have is when people my age think using cheap 3 word slogans and a black profile pick constitutes "activism" and "sticking it to the man!" (what a joke). It's typical of green to use their politics/spirituality as a fashion statement. None of this is new though. Doshin observed he experienced similar things in the counter culture of the sixties. Some of Peterson's teachings are necessary in a time where the mainstream culture is so permissive. In fact, I dropped out of the university system, having been fed up with how miserable and pathetic of an institution it really is. I'm not right wing or left wing, both parties are bought by the banks. But you have to admit the left is currently going a bit Looney Tunes, and out of touch with the original spirit of liberalism. Even leftists intellectuals such as Sam Harris are saying the left is going too far, and becoming unreasonable. The censorship of Steven Pinker is a great example. I'm also curious who in here listened to the entire Doshin interview in all glorious forty minutes. I thought it was actually quite articulate and measured. Anyways, that's my two cents

Edited July 27, 2020 by Focus Shift

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, Focus Shift said:

Doshin observed he experienced similar things in the counter culture of the sixties.

We need more of the 60's, not less.

Quote

But you have to admit the left is currently going a bit Looney Tunes, and out of touch with the original spirit of liberalism. Even leftists intellectuals such as Sam Harris are saying the left is going too far, and becoming unreasonable. The censorship of Steven Pinker is a great example.

No, I don't have to admit.

The right-wing has gone batshit, meanwhile people are getting distracted with silliness like Steven Pinker's censorship.

You need to get your priorities straight. A shell game is being played here and the key to this game is not taking your eye off the ball. The elephant in the room is unchecked materialism and capitalism. Not some SJW doing whatever.

The left is not going far enough. Not culturally, but actually at where the economic power lies.

[Focus Shift]

@Leo Gura I wish the mainstream conversation was shifted to economics rather then the petty culture stuff, I agree. It's amazing that so many Americans, who are so obsessed with material things have no understanding of the economic system, and of how badly they're being screwed. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Focus Shift

[lmfao]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Basically, here's my new rule: any public intellectual who takes JP's political ideas seriously is not serious. You're not a serious intellectual unless you can see through JP's bullshit instantly. We need to have higher standards for public intellectuals.

JP excellently articulates a defence of conservative and christian social values. But what that really means is that he's showing you what's wrong with many of the values people hold right to your face. 

He's a strong proponent of survival of the fittest where one's position on social "dominance hierarchies" is a measure of human competence and hence a measure of your worth as a human. It's a very sad, defeatist but most of all incomplete view of things. 

Don't get it twisted, he has a partial truth here. The reality of survival, the reality of biology and how society works can't be ignored. But you acknowledge those things without making those things become "God".  JP likes to talk about God a lot in some of his lectures. I don't think I'm straw-manning JP's shadow in any meaningful way when I say that JP has elevated "competence hierarchies" to the status of "God". 

--
If you want to criticise JP, examine these ideas of hierarchies and the values and beliefs he has about them. The counterbalance description of what a  "competence hierarchy"  is that JP doesn't get: These hierarchies are really a measure of how much other greedy and money hungry chimps respect you for their own personal gain. To elevate these hierarchies to the status of metaphysical/orientational "God" is ridiculous. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by lmfao

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, lmfao said:

To elevate these hierarchies to the status of "God" is ridiculous.

The sick irony is that they are in fact God.

But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be changed.

Hitler was God, and also we removed him from power.

Just because something dominant exists doesn't mean we should continue to support it once something better comes along.

Capitalism was good while it lasted. Now it's time for something better.

[lmfao]

Amen 

[diamondpenguin]

 

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The sick irony is that they are in fact God.

But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be changed.

Hitler was God, and also we removed him from power.

Just because something dominant exists doesn't mean we should continue to support it once something better comes along.

Capitalism was good while it lasted. Now it's time for something better.

Hell yea. That would be fucking awesome. We get Joe Biden in power so we can stop people getting shot up in the streets of portland by the trump troopers

[Focus Shift]

@lmfao From my understanding of Peterson's lectures. A hierarchy would not be stable if the commander was totally greedy. This is shown when a leader of chimps is too greedy, the chimps take him out when he isn't watching. There is the Pareto distribution for instance which states 20% of seeds get 80% of the results. It could be even less than that in some cases. For instance, on my youtube channel, only a handful of videos get thousands of views. This is a feature of reality. and a very difficult problem to solve. A very tedious and frustrating problem  

[Akemrelax]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It amazes me how these Integral Tier 2 guys just dismiss Green as something toxic to quickly skip over.

I think you’re not being fair here. Look at it without spiral dynamics.

If you were branded as a sexist or a racist and publicly humiliated because of a false accusation you would be thinking very differently. If you were a teacher/professor of course you would speak out, you could be humiliated if a single kid feels slightly offended, or worse, lose you job and humiliated. You would have to deal with annoying kids as usual and now there’s added wait.

Bret Weinstein is not going to support SJWs because of what happened to him. It’s a great thing that he calls himself a progressive. A lot of people would have turned conservative.

I don’t understand why can’t we do both? Make fun of SJWs and support progressive economic reform. SJWs are a big threat to the left.

[lmfao]

@Focus Shift One can still acknowledge truths and facts about biology, survival and society without conflating current structures as perfect and not to be changed. My point isn't that the Pareto distribution is wrong. My point is that it's true but JP adds his ideology to it. Partial truth to JP's perspective ofc 

Edited July 27, 2020 by lmfao
Making the post less dickish, my back injury making me grumpy