Nak Khid

Cases against democracy

36 posts in this topic

Recently I've come across two arguments against the right that every citizen should have the right to vote 

1) people should have the right to vote only if they are educated enough

2) people should only have the right to vote if they pay taxes or in some way put money or labor into the economy,
otherwise there are just takers and vote form that perspective 

Both of these ideas have some logic but also raise a lot of worries about marginalization and unfairness 
and could be too easily corrupted in their implementation. 

 

 


 

 

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I think there is some truth to socrates's perspective.

I don't think it should be mandated in stone, but rather... we should just make high quality education easily accessible. 

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50 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

Recently I've come across two arguments against the right that every citizen should have the right to vote 

1) people should have the right to vote only if they are educated enough

The practical way to solve this problem is not to reduce people's ability to vote but to make higher education free and easily available to everyone, and to raise the quality of the education system.

Quote

2) people should only have the right to vote if they pay taxes or in some way put money or labor into the economy,
otherwise there are just takers and vote form that perspective

Almost everyone pays taxes anyway so this is a moot point.

And people who pay taxes are certainly biased against paying taxes for purely selfish reasons. So you're not avoiding that problem.

Big tax payers routinely corrupt the government in order to avoid paying taxes.

The takers aren't the poor, the takers are the rich.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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What did Winston Churchill say about Democracy again? Oh yeah;

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"

Nothing more need be said on the topic............ except this other great quote I just found hah;

"At the bottom of all the tributes paid to democracy is the little man, walking into the little booth, with a little pencil, making a little cross, on a little bit of paper—no amount of rhetoric or voluminous discussion can possibly diminish the overwhelming importance of that point."

Edited by Roy

"Never held a high regard for Darwin, selection takes too long.
A little kick in the pool shouldn't do us wrong.
Devouring the very last invention man would ever need.
But exponential growth is a frightening thing, indeed.
"

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Noocracy (/noʊˈɒkrəsi, ˈnoʊ.əkrəsi/), or "aristocracy of the wise", as originally defined by Plato, is a system of governance where decision making is in the hands of philosophers, similar to his idea of philosopher kings. The idea was further expanded upon by geologist Vladimir Vernadsky, and philosophers (who attended Vernadsky's lectures) Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and Édouard Le Roy, and their concept of the noosphere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noocracy#:~:text=əkrəs,his idea of philosopher kings.


 

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Democracy works better when it's not fucked with from every which way. Educated people would make the difference, but not because of their vote. They wouldn't accept such a corrupt election process in the first place. 

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@louhad  Of course Trump, he seems to be the most evil person on the world if I believe mainstream news. Democracy is a strange exception, it is brittle and will only temporary survive.


"democracy is like a train, when you arrive at the destination you get off"

"Turks living in Europa are oppressed and humiliated, Europe is a sick man on collapse"

European person of the year: Erdogan

This is how they do to the dutch, our president is called fascist on the papers they hold:

 

Edited by -Tim-

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@-Tim- You have the tendency to overblow things. Dont worry too much about stuff like this there are systems in place to keep these kinds of groups in check. 

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46 minutes ago, -Tim- said:

@louhad  Of course Trump, he seems to be the most evil person on the world if I believe mainstream news. Democracy is a strange exception, it is brittle and will only temporary survive.


"democracy is like a train, when you arrive at the destination you get off"

"Turks living in Europa are oppressed and humiliated, Europe is a sick man on collapse"

European person of the year: Erdogan

This is how they do to the dutch, our president is called fascist on the papers they hold:

 

Because Erdogan is big in Libya France is forced to team up with the egyptien dictator. Russia was not enough.

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1 hour ago, Opo said:

@-Tim- You have the tendency to overblow things. Dont worry too much about stuff like this there are systems in place to keep these kinds of groups in check. 

Nope those groups in the video are Erdogan fans from Turkey and are like by Erdogan not holded in check. They call our president fascist because Erdogan did so. Erdogan created a quarrel in the Netherlands on purpose. It was clear he had lots and lots of fans in our country, who he plays like a puppet with the lefts language about discrimination and whites who are so bad. The left have helped create the soil for our Turks to be angry. Keeping them angry helps for Erdogan so the don't integrate and remain devout muslims and Erdoganfans

Edited by -Tim-

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By the way democracy will be a secondary thing in the future. China will be most powerful and they will absolutely not become democratic. they have deep filosophies and roots that will prevent that. Thinking they will become like you shows you havn't seen things from their perspective and are very westerncentrical in viewing the world. I am to intercultural developed to think so westernerly naive.

Europe pay Trump like he asked for the military to keep democracy safe for the short time it lasts. Keep Europe great for a while.

"Dutch people are like oranges. You first squeeze them and then drink them"
Erdogans youth branche

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40 minutes ago, -Tim- said:

By the way democracy will be a secondary thing in the future. China will be most powerful and they will absolutely not become democratic. they have deep filosophies and roots that will prevent that. Thinking they will become like you shows you havn't seen things from their perspective and are very westerncentrical in viewing the world. I am to intercultural developed to think so westernerly naive.

Europe pay Trump like he asked for the military to keep democracy safe for the short time it lasts. Keep Europe great for a while.

"Dutch people are like oranges. You first squeeze them and then drink them"
Erdogans youth branche

The higher one gets on SD the more easier it will be for China to deal with them.

Northern countries have basically no saying in world politics. Germany goes with whoever has more power.

 

Edited by Epikur

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@Epikur

On 17.7.2020 at 11:09 AM, Epikur said:

Northern countries have basically no saying in world politics.

I suggest you go back to school.  Start from the beginning. 

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On 17/07/2020 at 1:09 AM, Nak Khid said:

1) people should have the right to vote only if they are educated enough

Sounds a bit classist but sure

On 17/07/2020 at 1:09 AM, Nak Khid said:

2) people should only have the right to vote if they pay taxes or in some way put money or labor into the economy,
otherwise there are just takers and vote form that perspective 

Sounds biased against stay at home moms and poor people. 

As nice as an idea as having philosopher kings sounds, you can't impose your will on a people who are mostly resistant to what you want. If I'm some stage yellow ruler of some stage red place I can't just impose my personal values on everyone, even if my values are more developed. It doesn't work. 


Hark ye yet again — the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough

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4 hours ago, lmfao said:

Sounds a bit classist but sure


 

These ideas I am not advocating just had noticed people bringing them up and had never thought about it much before

It would be biased against poor people if such poor people  were necessarily uneducated. 
I suppose in such a case people might have to pass a civics test to to vote 

Quote

  Sounds biased against stay at home moms and poor people. 

As nice as an idea as having philosopher kings sounds, you can't impose your will on a people who are mostly resistant to what you want. If I'm some stage yellow ruler of some stage red place I can't just impose my personal values on everyone, even if my values are more developed. It doesn't work. 

yet rulers throughout history have been able to impose their will 

In such a system either the stay at home parent would not have the right to vote 
or they would have the right to vote because they could be considered contributors to the household of the working partner 

 

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On 7/16/2020 at 8:59 PM, Leo Gura said:

The practical way to solve this problem is not to reduce people's ability to vote but to make higher education free and easily available to everyone, and to raise the quality of the education system.

Almost everyone pays taxes anyway so this is a moot point.

And people who pay taxes are certainly biased against paying taxes for purely selfish reasons. So you're not avoiding that problem.

Big tax payers routinely corrupt the government in order to avoid paying taxes.

The takers aren't the poor, the takers are the rich.

You just been elected president.  You wanted free high education but couldn't get it through the legislature. 
A civics test is conducted , 30 million fail and this new law  says they can't vote, some of them even had the higher education 
The scenario is you don't have complete control of the education system and then it  is proposed people who are not educated should not have the right to vote.  Or the situation is that you are not president but you have been given the opportunity to vote on a referendum, the future voter right will only be extended to those educated enough to vote 

Then the other scenario, only tax payers can vote, this would be considered income tax payers, So people of a household living on public assistance would not have the right to vote since they are not paying income tax and therefore the thinking goes not they have not "invested" in the government
(this will come about under the Tucker Carlson presidency of 2024) .   Retried people would be either not allowed to vote or they could vote if they had worked a certain number of years 
 

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@Nak Khid Should we deny University students that are living on student loans or work study that pay no income tax their right to vote? . . . Should we deny tens of millions of Americans that have lost their jobs due to the mishandling of the Coronavirus that are no longer paying income tax? That is a huge portion of the American workforce and they may want to vote against a president who is mishandling the situation. And they may not be able to pass a civics test about congressional oversight of the executive branch on emolument issues? Yet does this really matter?. . . And how about all they people that are tirelessly working for slave wages and are so underpaid from their full-time job (or three part time jobs) that they don’t qualify to pay taxes? . . . And there are wealthy people that avoid paying taxes through legal loopholes. . . 

Denying people their vote is often used as a method of disenfranchisement and oppression. It takes away someone’s voice and silences them. Education and tax restrictions to deny voting were used during the reconstruction, Jim Crow and Civil rights eras as means of oppression. 

I think a much better strategy would be to increase education access, create more employment opportunities, raise corporate and wealth taxes and increase worker salaries. This would increase the average education level and lower class income and more people would be paying income tax, because they now actually have income to be taxed on. 

As well, uneducated voters are Trump’s base. If they were denied their vote all hell would break lose. So from a practical standpoint, it just isn’t feasible right now. 

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