Kinda stuck in self inquiry

[Ellenier]

Hey guys,

I know that in self inquiry I am not supposed to find myself...but nevertheless I feel stuck. I still don't know whether I'm doing it right.

Im practising it for about nine months now and always try to start by observing who this diffuse feeling of "I" is. Where it is and what it is (sounds outrageous, I know ^^). Then a few months ago I "progressed" to seeing that anything I can get in front of the lense is an object and that an "I" is observing it. Wow, so shocking...

I never touched the "I" of course because if I could drag it into my awareness it would become an object itself and would stop being me. But there was always still this inherent feeling of "I am here" that didnt leave me.

Then I watched a few videos of Tony Parsons, Jim Newman and teachers (rather "non-teachers") like them and their radical message hit my emotions very hard. Of course I couldnt stop watching them but I'm sure you know what they say about being able to overcome oneself (that the "I" wants to know/be aware of the fact that it has gone beyond itself which is bullshit of course) but they somehow at least killed this belief of mine.

Of course I couldnt stop seeking and then during my following self inquiry practise I found another interesting thing that the "I" which I couldnt overcome in the firstly (which always remained when it had disidentified every other object from itself) somehow seemed to be an object as well. I first had this recognition when I listened to music that there wasn't just the music appearing but that there was a second information at the location where the music was appearing that music/sound is appearing to "me" or to a "someone". So firstly music and secondly "I hear that".

When I enquired into this it was kinda strange because there was still an I observing the information that music is heard by an I/someone. Is this another trap or a "progression"? And I still dont really know whether self inquiry is rather meant to be a self-abidance or what is the case? Until now I am still not quite sure whether I'm doing it right or whether I'm just stepping into one trap after the other.

I feel like I can't find anything anymore. Shall I wait right there, where I watch everything and wait for the lightning to hit me? To me it feels more and more like doing everything wrong...Hope you guys can help me clarify for myself what is important for me to observe...Thanks very much!

[Rilles]

15 minutes ago, Ellenier said:

I first had this recognition when I listened to music that there wasn't just the music appearing but that there was a second information at the location where the music was appearing that music/sound is appearing to "me" or to a "someone". So firstly music and secondly "I hear that".

What is this "second information?" And where is the "location" where it appears? Are you sure there isnt just the music itself? Alone? As one object? 

[Ellenier]

@Rilles Mhmm. I try to describe it differently. At least I would say that I recognize the information that all of this is happening to a "somebody" as an object that I can perceive. Maybe it is just clearer to me when I listen to music because my mind then calms down more and it is happening closer to me because the music is "in my head". But I'm very sure that the information that "somebody is listening" is an object I can observe. I dont know where it is, it fills up the entire room i would say. The thing is: WHO knows that he can observe the information that there seems to be a "somebody". I dont get that... Is that described less confusing?

[VeganAwake]

Who feels stuck?

Who listens to music?

Who can't stop seeking?

Where is 'I'...

What makes-up the feeling of 'I'....

 

[Ellenier]

@VeganAwake An apparent feeling of I seems to claim everything that happens for itself? And in the end its nobody?

[nistake]

Self-inquiry tends to be quite tricky because the mind likes to get involved in the process and make the whole process much more complicated than it actually is. At first, it's okay to use the mind (asking the usual questions, who am I?, what am I? etc), but after that, the mind should be set aside and the attention should be directed to the sense of "I". Just keep a relaxed focus on it. No need to figure out anything, no need to analyze it.

There's a pointer I like to remind myself when I get lost in monkey-mind: The mind cannot provide an answer to this question and eventually the answer won't come from the mind.

[Rilles]

15 minutes ago, Ellenier said:

@VeganAwake An apparent feeling of I seems to claim everything that happens for itself? And in the end its nobody?

I dont know where you are in your journey but a good way to do self-inquiry is to try reverse the approach.

Instead of trying to look for yourself, try looking only at what exists in your direct experience in this case your 5 senses, if theres only 5 senses then how can you exist? What are you made of? Have you ever experienced yourself? Or have you only experienced these 5 senses? Try messing around with different approaches. Step back and look at the painting as a whole. 

[VeganAwake]

36 minutes ago, Ellenier said:

@VeganAwake An apparent feeling of I seems to claim everything that happens for itself? And in the end its nobody?

Yes, Jim and Tony say this..

But...

Where is 'I'...

What makes-up the feeling of 'I'....

 

[Beginner Mind]

@Ellenier Just be, knowingly.

[Ellenier]

@nistake Yeah my mind loves to find distractions I suppose. So I get you right, that you say its more like a self-abidance after an initial question posed by the mind rather than dragging away everything thats "blocking" the screen?

@Rilles I would say that I am existing in none of these senses though theyre attributed to a feeling of subjectivity that is not one of these senses

@VeganAwake I dont know, maybe I should inquire into this  all I have found until now is the feeling of "this" happening to "somebody" which doesnt necessarily have a foundation in what it claims but it appears as if it is true.

@Beginner Mind Thats straight forward  is it a process or more an epiphany like "eureka"?

[Rilles]

Just now, Ellenier said:

I would say that I am existing in none of these senses though theyre attributed to a feeling of subjectivity that is not one of these senses

Just keep grinding away! Even tiny glimpses are so satisfying! 

[Aaron p]

@Ellenier @Ellenier the first positive thing is the fact that you aren't one of these people who are like "ahhh yes I have found the no-needle, I am emptiness and I have found the emptiness therefore let me not search anymore." It's important to note that when that *actually* happens you will become instantly immortal.

The Lord has been speaking to me recently about allowing him to meditate *for* me. There are always two different kinds of spirituality, human spirituality, and REAL spirituality and lots of variety of degrees and levels and mixtures of authenticity in between both. You should know that the self enquiry that you started with SHOULD NOT be the self enquiry that you practise after 5 or 10 years. 

It changes and you should allow it to change. The most important part is your heart behind it, keep your motives authentic and never give up. Allow yourself to realise that self enquiry is actually bullshit until it is transformed into the REAL kind of spiritual self enquiry. This ONLY happens in direct experience. Comes to a point where you let go of your practice to delve into REAL practice which comes about intuitively. This kind is more powerful and less difficult in my opinion. Letting go. Notice, "letting go" is not something you can *do* its like having sex with a girl...you can set up the situation over and over again, but only when the magic (love) is *actually* there can you make love. And you just have to wait on it and pursue it

[SoonHei]

@Ellenier will the reader of the book ever find himself in the book? directly find? the book can only point you back at yourself... the issue is that we attempt to find ourselves within the pages of the book... but that's impossible. we are the ones reading. the reader is outside of the book he is reading...

if a book had a page which was a mirror, that can be the best pointer back at yourself... notice how even that would be an image of you. but it will at least show you where it is you are. you are already where you are. you are with yourself. you are yourself.

the answer to WHO AM I is not verbal, experiential ... YOU are the answer itself. YOU in your alreadyness. you, right as you are. not the body-mind you. the you-you that you are.

[Beginner Mind]

28 minutes ago, Ellenier said:

@Beginner Mind Thats straight forward  is it a process or more an epiphany like "eureka"?

There will be no fireworks when you recognize your Self, no grand epiphany.  Recognizing what you are is a very low-key, subtle experience.

[Rilles]

15 minutes ago, Beginner Mind said:

There will be no fireworks when you recognize your Self, no grand epiphany.  Recognizing what you are is a very low-key, subtle experience.

Really? Ive had tiny glimpses and they feel amazing... All that tension built up after looking for so long is released, I get all giddy and happy and amazed.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Rilles

[Ellenier]

@Beginner Mind I expect at least a fanfare orchestra  well, okay but does this realization, as low-key as it might be, come in a moment or does it gradually uncover itself?

@Aaron p okay so I guess I will have to give it a couple of years. Is there any reference on how long it takes for most people?

@SoonHei Thats a good comparison (if I am in the position to judge ^^). But doesnt that again mean that whatever I try to do, it wont be a progress in finding what I truly am?

 

[Ellenier]

@Rilles For me, every glimpse fades after a couple of hours. It always leaves me with "This is not quite it". It has kinda become a joke that I tell myself in many situations even though its more a bitter realization - "This is not quite it". I dont expect the lasting transformation to have a significant effect on my feelings. At least I still hope it gets myself out of my own way in everyday life. Would be a huge relief.

[Beginner Mind]

2 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Really? Ive had tiny glimpses and they feel amazing... All that tension built up after looking for so long is released, I get all giddy and happy and amazed.

The actual recognition itself is not an extraordinary experience.  Having said that, the peace that emerges from resting as your true nature is something to write home about.

[Beginner Mind]

5 minutes ago, Ellenier said:

@Beginner Mind I expect at least a fanfare orchestra  well, okay but does this realization, as low-key as it might be, come in a moment or does it gradually uncover itself?

Recognizing what you are is not a particularly memorable experience (sorry to disappoint you).  The 'qualities' or your true nature (mainly the feeling of peace) gradually emerges as you rest in yourself over a period of time.

[Ellenier]

@Beginner Mind I'm currently at a point where I am glad for every disappointment as long as it reveals my wrong beliefs ^^