Leo Gura

Policing Is Hard Work

408 posts in this topic

On 6/14/2020 at 6:45 PM, electroBeam said:

You're not questioning WHY policing is tough in the first place enough. WHY is policing tough? WHY do people steal tasers? WHY are people committing crimes? WHY are they resisting arrest?

There are countries out there where policing is 1000x easier than it is in the US. Policing is way easier in Denmark, UK, Australia, Canada, etc.

Policing is easier in those countries because the culture is different, social norms are different, there's less systemic problems there, people have their basic needs met more, people are treated better, people are more aware, the laws are different, consequences are dealt with different, more holistically, more compassionately, less harshly, more focus on rehab than solidary confinement, etc.

Most developed countries have banned guns... and that's a first start for the US. The fact that you guys have guns is unacceptable and way below your standards as a country.

 

Policing is tough work, because the US believes cure is better than prevention. Its better for cops to solve all of the US's problems rather than to solve it at the systemic level. Instead of putting effort into reforming education, worker's rights, UBI, pill testing, medical stations, etc. Lets knock civillians into submission with machine guns and military equipment until they do what we want.

If you've got a kid, and the only way you've gotten that kid to do what you want is through violence, expect that kid to be violent too. 

 

There is a lot of police bashing going on, and while its unfair because its the fault of the training rather than the police officers themselves, its totally warranted, because its the problem. Police have it tough because your society treats your civillians like a piece of shit. 

Stop giving so much money to the police, and put it into solving the root problem, and that's what your progressive states are starting to do and its great to see. CHAZ (or CHOP) wont last forever, but its like a renaissance, live music, community coming together, money put into solving systemic problems rather than giving police machine guns, its great.

you say we shouldnt have guns, but try invading us. 

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8 minutes ago, Alyosha said:

you say we shouldnt have guns, but try invading us. 

no that’s def not invasion, that’s an attempt of making you aware of love. which is an absolute singularity.

invasion would it be if he would put a weapon to your head asking to surrender all your weapons and then demanding souvereignty.

Edited by remember

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18 minutes ago, Consept said:

If a dog attacks you without drawing blood and then runs away its a bit extreme to then chase it and kill it, let alone a human. I think it just speaks to the police culture that this is considered normal or by the book. 

I like this from a compassionate/empathetic/community wellness perspective. For many humans, it’s easier to do with animals than humans. For example, we understand that the dog has been conditioned that way and is acting out it’s nature. It can’t help act any other way. We wouldn’t say “The dog chose to bite me and run away. That dog made bad decisions and I killed it”. . . Yet we could also realize that the dog is simply acting act it’s conditioning. The dog may have been abused as a puppy and is now scared and hyper-defensive. This puts things in a new context. If the dog has rabies and is an imminent lethal threat, we handle the situation one way. Yet if the dog got scared and is acting out his trauma by biting someone and running away, we handle the situation another way.

Imo, this view isn’t the mainstream in the U.S. It’s more of a this is how police handle criminals mindset. I think we need to step back and question the big picture of how we label crime and deal with crime. I think a common response to this would be “That is very naive. Try treating a vicious dog with rabies with hugs and kisses and see how far it gets you”. Yet we are not talking about a dog with rabies. We are talking about a dog that had suffered trauma, got scared and bit someone. 

In the current police system, I can see someone saying that the police officer technically followed police policy. Yet the bigger question is looking at the police policy itself. Do we want to live in a society with these police policies? Can we do better as a society?

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2 hours ago, Raze said:

@Godhead

In 2018 Germany had 901 murders, and the USA had over 16,000. The rate of Germany's police killings is irrelevant, look at the size of Germany's population and amount of murders compared to America's. There are more violent criminals in America so the police kill more often. 

@Preety_India

The drunk guy followed their orders perfectly fine for 30 minutes before he went nuts and started fighting them. Nothing indicates that he was attacking them because he didn't understand their orders. Even if he didn't understand their orders and that's why, it doesn't matter, whatever the reason is once you point a taser at a cop's face they can respond with deadly force. He wasn't killed as punishment for a DUI, he was killed because he tried to shoot a cop in the face with a taser and the cop responded by defending himself.

Why not involve weapons when arresting a drunk person? If you are afraid the drunk person is dangerous enough to steal them, that is more reason to bring them, if they didn't have them that would mean they end up in a fist fight with a drunk person. The police always need to be a step ahead.

The police did arrest him without using a taser or guns, it was only until he started resisting that they tried to tase him, and only when he aimed the taser at them that they shot him.

They couldn't have easily chased him down because he pointed a taser right at the cop's face, there is no place in the world where you can point a taser at a armed cop's face and they can't respond with lethal force, the cop can't just stand there and let himself be tased in the face. You don't understand how dangerous the situation is, a taser shot at you by a drunk person can result in death, paralysis, losing an eye, a cop cannot allow themselves to be subdued because then their gun can be stolen.

He was clearly a threat to the cops because he already assaulted them and was aiming the taser behind. It doesn't matter if he has trouble aiming, he was trying too, and was in distance where it could hit.

The police fired at him because he tried to shoot them in the face with a taser, not because they got tired of running. If it was the second reason, they would have shot him right as he started running not until he reached behind with the taser.

The cop was fired because the police department had to quell the angry mob.

Again, if a taser is enough of a threat to warrant deadly force, cops that threaten to use tasers on innocent people deserve to be shot by that same logic.

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1 hour ago, Recursoinominado said:

@tenta Well, this "fuck the police" mentality that is spreading says otherwise. With the rise of group identity politics, the tendency is to generalize ones action by their "group identity" and that's usually manufactured by the leaders of social movements like Antifa, BLM, feminism movement etc. The intention is to label every one of the chosen group as they want to and establish a fixed idea.

They are not only "exposing', they are actively inciting a war. If they want to change structural racism and police brutality, Rioting is NOT the most effective means. It is comparable to a child tantrum, sure, they could even be mad for a good reason, they have the right to feel as they feel but expressing that breaking shit in the house isn't going to accomplish anything besides a strong(er) reaction from mommy and daddy.  

Fuck the police.  My point with the Brazil/US comparison is that the Americans can ask for more.  Just because cops are necessary as a function doesn't mean that most cops or cop actions are good, and people are waking up to this.

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10 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I like this from a compassionate/empathetic/community wellness perspective. For many humans, it’s easier to do with animals than humans. For example, we understand that the dog has been conditioned that way and is acting out it’s nature. It can’t help act any other way. We wouldn’t say “The dog chose to bite me and run away. That dog made bad decisions and I killed it”. . . Yet we could also realize that the dog is simply acting act it’s conditioning. The dog may have been abused as a puppy and is now scared and hyper-defensive. This puts things in a new context. If the dog has rabies and is an imminent lethal threat, we handle the situation one way. Yet if the dog got scared and is acting out his trauma by biting someone and running away, we handle the situation another way.

Imo, this view isn’t the mainstream in the U.S. It’s more of a this is how police handle criminals mindset. I think we need to step back and question the big picture of how we label crime and deal with crime. I think a common response to this would be “That is very naive. Try treating a vicious dog with rabies with hugs and kisses and see how far it gets you”. Yet we are not talking about a dog with rabies. We are talking about a dog that had suffered trauma, got scared and bit someone. 

In the current police system, I can see someone saying that the police officer technically followed police policy. Yet the bigger question is looking at the police policy itself. Do we want to live in a society with these police policies? Can we do better as a society?

Exactly, do you remember the uproar when Harambe the Gorilla was killed? The police or the public will not bat an eyelid at this human being killed, so obviously the compassion is there but as you say its reserved for beings who seemingly have no control over their actions and are just following their nature or reacting out of trauma. But how many humans have had trauma or how many humans are just acting out in the moment without thinking, it also assumes we have free will, which is not exactly true. There can be literal trauma to your brain that affects your decision making or even you were born with a certain kind of brain that reacts unpredictably or you received psychological trauma in your life that affects your reactions. There are so many variables out of your control that to shoot to kill just seems crazy, especially considering the compassion and uproar that probably wouldve happened if it was a lion or a dog or a gorilla. I dont think its good enough anymore just to say it was police policy.

 

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34 minutes ago, Consept said:

Do you think theres anything structurally within the whole system that could change the level of crime? Im just asking because although the police maybe stemming the tide at the moment, it cant go on like that forever 

This is a question of the ages, since forever, the most conscious human beings are questioning themselves about the problem of raising the consciousness of the masses. I personally believe that the change has to be on an individual level, one by one. In spite of everything, we do live in the most peaceful and abundant time in history, meaning that we are slowly but surely evolving as species. As tools for raising consciousness become more and more mainstream, it is only a matter of time for the collective consciousness to rise also and then becomes this energetic pull that the average vibration of the environment does to the individual. 

Some ideas could be:

Widespread the practice of meditation, yoga and body therapies like bioenergetic and osho's dynamic meditation.

Could you imagine if they taught those in school, colleges, prisons, police academy?

Psychedelic therapies are also going to be a big thing soon, although I can't imagine this being part of a school curriculum or police academy.

 

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2 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Again, if a taser is enough of a threat to warrant deadly force, cops that threaten to use tasers on innocent people deserve to be shot by that same logic.

The only justification I can find is if the officer was genuinely unsure if he also stole a gun. Since the man stole an officer’s taser, it’s somewhat reasonable that he could have also stolen a gun. Yet this seems unlikely and I don’t get the sense that the officer felt like the guy may have stolen a gun and posed a lethal threat. Afterwards, there is footage of him speaking to others and others’ asking him if he was ok. He gave no indication that he was unsure if the guy had a gun or that his felt threatened. And from what I read, he didn’t check or ask if the guy had a gun. I realize this was a dramatic situation that happened quickly and he was filled with adrenaline, yet if he had uncertainty of wether he had a gun and that he was a lethal threat, I would think that would be a major thing he would be automatically expressing. I imagine if saw someone on my property at night and I thought he had a gun and shot him - yet it turned out that he didn’t have a gun and was just trespassing - front and center would be me expressing my uncertainty of him having a gun and how I was protecting myself from a lethal threat. . . I suppose it’s possible that the cop was uncertain, but didn’t say anything because that would be tacitly admitting he screwed up. If the cop says “Crap, I thought he also stole a gun. He didn’t have my partner’s gun?”. That would be admitting he made a mistake. Yet I am now starting to make excuses for him.

The more I consider it, the more it seems like uncertainty of whether the guy had a gun was not a factor and I’d lean toward a manslaughter situation. 

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@AtheisticNonduality Not at all nor am i defending atrocious acts committed by cops, these have to be judged like any other crime, just pointing out that this "fuck the police" mentality is due to ignorance of the complexity of the problem. Not only that, in my view, it contributes to making the problem worse. 

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   The naivety of people defending the drunk guy that stole a taser from a cop is mind-boggling. Some suggest that the cops should have let him go to apprehend him later - without thinking of the consequences of that, i.e now he has a taser, and not knowing much of him (serial killer, rapist, psychopath, sociopath...) now he has a new tool to hurt other people that happen to be in his path. Imagine him using that taser to stun and rape a woman later on that day, or break into somebody's home, assuming the cops give chase, and now a hostage situation unfolds. See how the situation has spiralled more out of control?

   And check your conflation here between the recent events of the George Floyd case and this situation. Too much generalizing and distortion going on here, too much black and white thinking about this situation. The reality is what it is on video, nothing more, nothing less! 

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7 minutes ago, Consept said:

Exactly, do you remember the uproar when Harambe the Gorilla was killed? The police or the public will not bat an eyelid at this human being killed, so obviously the compassion is there but as you say its reserved for beings who seemingly have no control over their actions and are just following their nature or reacting out of trauma. But how many humans have had trauma or how many humans are just acting out in the moment without thinking, it also assumes we have free will, which is not exactly true. There can be literal trauma to your brain that affects your decision making or even you were born with a certain kind of brain that reacts unpredictably or you received psychological trauma in your life that affects your reactions. There are so many variables out of your control that to shoot to kill just seems crazy, especially considering the compassion and uproar that probably wouldve happened if it was a lion or a dog or a gorilla. I dont think its good enough anymore just to say it was police policy.

 

This connects nicely with the video of Sadhguru you posted up. Sadhguru talked about being ok with “selective violence” and how if we become ok with selective violence against animals, it can spill over to being ok with selective violence against humans. 

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7 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   The naivety of people defending the drunk guy that stole a taser from a cop is mind-boggling. Some suggest that the cops should have let him go to apprehend him later - without thinking of the consequences of that, i.e now he has a taser, and not knowing much of him (serial killer, rapist, psychopath, sociopath...) now he has a new tool to hurt other people that happen to be in his path. Imagine him using that taser to stun and rape a woman later on that day, or break into somebody's home, assuming the cops give chase, and now a hostage situation unfolds. See how the situation has spiralled more out of control?

Wow, that’s a lot of cynical stuff you are projecting on him. To me he seems like a decent guy that got scared. He was visiting his mother’s grave and talking about his family. He seemed genuinely remorseful about passing out in his car. I don’t take him as a person that was inherently violent that would have tried to harm others. I think it would have been far more likely that he ended up sitting down on a curb and start to cry about what was happening and how much he fucked up. 

He was trying to get away from police, he had NO issues with anyone else. 

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10 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

This is a question of the ages, since forever, the most conscious human beings are questioning themselves about the problem of raising the consciousness of the masses. I personally believe that the change has to be on an individual level, one by one. In spite of everything, we do live in the most peaceful and abundant time in history, meaning that we are slowly but surely evolving as species. As tools for raising consciousness become more and more mainstream, it is only a matter of time for the collective consciousness to rise also and then becomes this energetic pull that the average vibration of the environment does to the individual. 

Some ideas could be:

Widespread the practice of meditation, yoga and body therapies like bioenergetic and osho's dynamic meditation.

Could you imagine if they taught those in school, colleges, prisons, police academy?

Psychedelic therapies are also going to be a big thing soon, although I can't imagine this being part of a school curriculum or police academy.

 

I agree with you completely, ultimately this is the route humans will have to talk to evolve and it has to be done on an individual level. I dont know Brazil to well, most of my knowledge is from football and the film 'City of God', but i assume its red/blue with some orange and green. So it would be a big jump to get up to what youre talking about, although i would love to see that, i never understand why some of the things you mentioned arent taught in schools. But from a more blue perspective, do you think some kind of policies could be implemented or anything could be done about the current violence, or its just a case of letting it play out because things are improving as you say

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Just now, Serotoninluv said:

Wow, that’s a lot of stuff you are projecting on him. To me he seems like a nice guy that guy scared. He was visiting his mother’s grave and talking about his family. He seemed very remorseful about passing out in his car. I don’t take him as a person that is inherently violent that would have tried to harm others. I think it would have been far more likely that he ended up sitting down on a curb and start crying about what is happening and how much he has fucked up. 

   Or, he's a sociopath and lied convincingly to police. Notice how quickly he escalated the situation. We don't know much from one video, but that's the limited window of that reality.

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8 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Or, he's a sociopath and lied convincingly to police.

I think you are being cynical. To me, he seemed like a genuinely decent guy that got really scared. Like a scared dog. 

And I’ve read nothing about him having a history of being a manipulative, violent sociopath.

I’ve been in situations in which I suddenly got really scared and acted it out inappropriately. I can also imagine being in situations like this. For example, if law enforcement tried to put me in a straight jacket, I would likely panic and freak out. Being trapped in a straight jacket is one of my worse nightmares. I could see myself going into fight or flight mode and fighting like hell. And if I fought the cops and started to run away. I would NOT harm anyone else. My issue is with the straight jacket, nothing else. 

You are not relating to how a decent, normally nonviolent person could panic and do something like this. 

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3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Or, he's a sociopath and lied convincingly to police. Notice how quickly he escalated the situation. We don't know much from one video, but that's the limited window of that reality.

Either way, i wouldnt want a police force that assumed i or anyone, was a violent sociopath who was likely to rape people using a taser, just off the bat. It has to be guilty until proven innocent and ultimately the job of the police is to protect and serve, that can mean protecting the person from themselves if that situation occurs. Of course if the person is attacking or reaching for a gun then yeah i understand lethal force but aside from that, if someone is literally running away, i cant see a justification for it. Would you shoot a dog that was running away? 

I mean look at this one, its so over the top -

 

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1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

I think you are being cynical. To me, he seemed like a genuinely decent guy that got really scared. Like a scared dog. 

And I’ve read nothing about him having a history of being a manipulative, violent sociopath.

   'seemed' is the keyword here. We can only know so much in a video, or in a person's direct experience, that we cannot assume anymore, otherwise, we are projecting way too much.

   That's fine reading stuff on him, but that's looking back to the past. Try to bring yourself into that police's position, as the situation is unfolding. As a hypothetical, you're the cop that the guy has stolen the taser from, and now you're giving chase, but you lose him. A day later, that same guy used your weapon to do evil to another person. How would you feel then, as the cop that lost his weapon?

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1 minute ago, Consept said:

Either way, i wouldnt want a police force that assumed i or anyone, was a violent sociopath who was likely to rape people using a taser, just off the bat.

For DUIs, police do a check on the license plate. They say that they are checking registration, insurance and for previous driving infractions - yet I’m curious how deep the check actually goes. For example, if they scan for previous criminal records. 

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@Consept

5 minutes ago, Consept said:

Either way, i wouldnt want a police force that assumed i or anyone, was a violent sociopath who was likely to rape people using a taser, just off the bat. It has to be guilty until proven innocent and ultimately the job of the police is to protect and serve, that can mean protecting the person from themselves if that situation occurs. Of course if the person is attacking or reaching for a gun then yeah i understand lethal force but aside from that, if someone is literally running away, i cant see a justification for it. Would you shoot a dog that was running away? 

I mean look at this one, its so over the top -

 

   That's the power of stereotype and projection, don't expect most people wouldn't do the same to you.

   Depends on the type of dog. If it's a chihuahua or similar sized dog, I would let it go. But a bulldog, or a similar/bigger sized dog, bred and trained typically to guard places and attack people, then I would shot to disable, or if the situation was much dire, shoot to kill. 

   If I see someone running away from me, with my stolen weapon, turning around to fire it, I would shot. And I expect you to do the same/similar to me if you find me in such a state of consciousness that I would harm you or others. I can definitely agree with you that further refinement of training would be needed for the police force. For example, that officer failed to secure a rear-choke holed onto the drunk guy. I've done martial arts training and can tell you that proper application can de-escalate the situation. 

   

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3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   'seemed' is the keyword here. We can only know so much in a video, or in a person's direct experience, that we cannot assume anymore, otherwise, we are projecting way too much.

Of course I’m not 100% certain. These are impressions. There was nothing to suggest he was a violent sociopath. In fact, the evidence preceding the arrest was that he was not a violent sociopath. That’s not how violent sociopath’s act. Even violent sociopath’s trying to act normal don’t act like that. The master violent sociopath was Ted Bundy. Violent sociopaths don’t show genuine remorse in a sloppy manner like this guy did. 

7 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   That's fine reading stuff on him, but that's looking back to the past. Try to bring yourself into that police's position, as the situation is unfolding. As a hypothetical, you're the cop that the guy has stolen the taser from, and now you're giving chase, but you lose him. A day later, that same guy used your weapon to do evil to another person. How would you feel then, as the cop that lost his weapon?

I’ve spent a lot of time imagining the cops experience. Yesterday in this thread I was talking about the perspective of the cop and people piled up on me. Today I’m talking about the perspective of the guy, and people are piling up on me.

Yes, I can see the perspective of the cop. I made arguments for him yesterday. It is not an easy position to be in. . . For example, in hindsight, the cops should have used more force when they tried to handcuff him. Yet if they did, people may complain “He was a decent, nice guy - using that much force to handcuff him is police brutality!!”. They obviously thought he was a decent guy and treated him gingerly. They didn’t expect him to freak out. 

As well, you “what if” scenario is possible, yet as I said. . . . I find it unlikely. I find it much more likely that they would have found him sitting on a curbside crying. He came to visit his mother’s grave and fucked up. 

This is also an example why it can be beneficial to have people trained in social work and drug addiction there. I’ve done a lot of volunteer work with alcoholics and drug addicts. If there was a trained professional there that sat down with him and bonded with him, the situation may have been very different. If there was an alcohol addiction specialist telling him “you fucked up and are going to have to go to the station. You’ll be in a jail cell for a few hours to sober up, yet you have support and resources.”. . . It would have been far less likely he freaked out. I’ve been in a similar situation in which I was half drunk and belligerent. I almost freaked out, yet there was a social worker there that talked with me and I calmed down.

The cops had no idea how to deal with a half-drunk person. The cop even said “I don’t want to deal with this situation”. Imagine having someone there that was actually trained for that situation that said “Perfect!! A half drunk guy that passed out in his car!! Right up my alley!! I’ll get right in there!!”

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