on which stage on spiral dynamics is actualized.org

[Wordless]

9 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

You have to build it, fill it with Art and Meaning. Then you have to maintain it and even renovate it.

A cathedral is a typical stage blue solution (a massive, monolithic, centralized symbol of order and community) with the typical blue downsides (huge cost and high maintenance, no flexibility). A more yellow solution would be lightweight, scalable, decentralized and self-organizing.

Here are two examples that I would consider functioning yellow spaces: One is the community around rebel wisdom (including groups like the stoa and the channels of their regular speakers). The other is the scene of transformational festivals.

9 hours ago, Consept said:

Yeah nice analogy, so in theory you'd want to create a space that if people enter they could learn and improve from. The only issue being that space would have to be majority let's yellow people on this case. If any others hold the majority yellow will be labelled within that context and any nuance yellow points have will be missed. 

I'm not sure about that. The majority is only needed if you come from a tribal perspective of overpowering an outgroup. Warriors in a battle need to outnumber their opponents. If the mechanism is inspiration, things change. Artists on a festival do not need to outnumber the audience in order to make it an artistic place.

If people are looking for inspiration, they will find out who inspires them and who doesn't. There is no need for a group of "officially yellow" people to be louder than everyone else.

9 hours ago, Consept said:

In practice what happens is that if a thread is mainly green and yellow and even orange, when someone who is blue or even red comes in they can't grasp that its not a binary situation of people that agree with me and people that don't. They think because everyone doesn't agree with them that those people don't get it and are just liberals for example or have been brainwashed by some opposing movement. What makes it worse is that they believe themselves to be yellow so they think their opinion is completely independent. It's this unawareness which makes it hard to talk, if everyone comes in willing to learn there's no problem no matter what stage they're at 

I agree, it's not realistic to establish a different culture within a thread or subforum.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Wordless

[Wordless]

9 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

Maybe it's the Inspiration that Cathedrals once had (or maybe for other than me still have) that would be needed for such a Yellow Forum.

I think transformational festivals actually do this, that would be like a cathedral made of people. It reminds me also of a story that the burning man festival has a "temple", which is one of the festival buildings, a large wooden structure. During the festival everyone can leave things there that strain him (written on pieces of paper or just on the walls). And in the end the whole thing is burned down as a ritual, forming a powerful symbol of impermanence and transformation.

[supremeyingyang]

10 hours ago, Wordless said:

A cathedral is a typical stage blue solution (a massive, monolithic, centralized symbol of order and community) with the typical blue downsides (huge cost and high maintenance, no flexibility).

I meant Cathedral as a metaphor. Do you think that you can set up a System and let it run without Updates or without renovate it from time to time? What is with Security, it need to be protected from Corruption. This is at least relatively high cost, high maintenance and massive, but flexible, fluid and perhaps decentralized. The last point would make it more costly and high in maintenance.

10 hours ago, Wordless said:

A more yellow solution would be lightweight, scalable, decentralized and self-organizing.

Not necessary all of that, but I find this a good Ideal.
For Example Wikipedia is kind of Yellow. It's Scalable, Decentralized and Self-Organizing and Lightweight. It's not perfect because one man hold all the power, but it works exceptionally well
All the Systems that has to be in Place in Order to Update an Article... You can change a Article, yes, but someone will read you Changes and after some Minutes it's back to normal. You would need to wove you false Information artistically into an Article and for that you would need to have tremendous Background on that Topic and on the System Structure of Wikipedia. But if that's the case you not likely to do that.. Plus: The whole System grew organically.

10 hours ago, Wordless said:

Here are two examples that I would consider functioning yellow spaces: One is the community around rebel wisdom (including groups like the stoa and the channels of their regular speakers). The other is the scene of transformational festivals.

1. Transformational Festivals

I watched the Video, here some first thoughts. I'm may be wrong.
First of all: Generally I dislike Festivals. They are loud and full of ignorant People/People in an ignorant state. You can't really talk deeply. The Structure don't allows it easily. The Transformational Festivals is a great, great Improvement from 'normal' Festivals. While I may would visit this to experience the Atmosphere, and surely the more Yellow and Turquoise than in the normal Population, I think that this Structure is mainly still Green. It's a collective, group-experience, community, hippy like Gathering. I'll exaggerate what I read from this:

• Lets get together and play a sugary Ideal of how the think World should be, party, dance, take drugs and then go home and bitch and moan about the ignorant majority.

Well, this is really a Exaggeration. I think this Festival is cool for those who like Festivals and Part of a healthy change.

2. Rebel Wisdom

Thanks for that. I have to see if that is for me. I'm always in desperate need of Yellow Crack;)

10 hours ago, Wordless said:

I'm not sure about that. The majority is only needed if you come from a tribal perspective of overpowering an outgroup. Warriors in a battle need to outnumber their opponents. If the mechanism is inspiration, things change. Artists on a festival do not need to outnumber the audience in order to make it an artistic place.

Yeah, well. Well, well, well. What if, lets say, some big ignorant Group of Festivals People would be transferred to the Transformational Festival. They see it, they like it. They like it because it's hunting time. They do the most disturbing Activities, the Opposite of what you are supposed to do. What if that happens all the time? There is a reason why this Festivals are far away from normal People.

• Artists on a festival do need to outnumber the audience IN SPIRIT in order to make it an artistic place.

10 hours ago, Wordless said:

If people are looking for inspiration, they will find out who inspires them and who doesn't. There is no need for a group of "officially yellow" people to be louder than everyone else.

Yes! This is the paradox. If some Group would make it official it's likely that it would transform into a lower state.

9 hours ago, Wordless said:

I think transformational festivals actually do this, that would be like a cathedral made of people. It reminds me also of a story that the burning man festival has a "temple", which is one of the festival buildings, a large wooden structure. During the festival everyone can leave things there that strain him (written on pieces of paper or just on the walls). And in the end the whole thing is burned down as a ritual, forming a powerful symbol of impermanence and transformation.

Yeah beautiful, but won't give you tangible results. I mean yeah, it's part of long Transformation of Humanity, but I wouldn't think that the natural Place for Yellow. Yellow craves for real changes in big Systems like a State or a Organization. My Ideal of an Yellow Group is a Group of highly skilled Individualists, what make them a Group is a shared cause and that everyone is special and has something to contribute. Like the Star Trek Main Cast: Captain, Doctor, Mechanical Specialist, Pilots, Fighters and other Specialists. And there is 'the Crew'. Normal people that contribute in their way and sometimes they have big contributions to make. But most of the time they do their part to keep the Ship doing that is needs to do. Everyone is important, but not the same.

Edited June 14, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[remember]

cathedral as a metaphor was used as a building foundation for the bauhaus. it is not only a metaphor but a symbol for an overarching spirit. ofc you could replace that with any other spiritual building, especially when we talk about a pan religious pan cultural building. although the cathedral is a hint towards a long tradition which is based in a spiritual ethical code, what might be missed out on calling it differently - there is a history behind it and a profession. this is not dogmatism its just a hint towards the absolute.

Edited June 14, 2020 by remember

[supremeyingyang]

1 minute ago, remember said:

cathedral as a metaphor was used as a building foundation for the bauhaus. it is not only a metaphor but a symbol for an overarching spirit. ofc you could replace that with any other spiritual building, especially when we talk about a pan religious pan cultural building. although the cathedral is a hint towards a long tradition which is based in a spiritual ethical code - there is a history behind it and a profession.

You are right. This is something one would have to explore in Order to make it more accessible for people from Non-Christian background. I did not thought about this, but it is something that would keep certain people out.

[remember]

42 minutes ago, supremeyingyang said:

You are right. This is something one would have to explore in Order to make it more accessible for people from Non-Christian background. I did not thought about this, but it is something that would keep certain people out.

yes def, reading about the bauhaus could help 

[supremeyingyang]

6 minutes ago, remember said:

yes def, reading about the bauhaus could help 

Actually I've studied Bauhaus in School very detailed, but from an technical Standpoint, not a philosophical Standpoint. If that's the Spirit of Bauhaus, we weren't taught about it. I remember that Bauhaus should be a Tabula Rasa and 'Form follows Function'.
I very much dislike the sterile Type of modern Building that descended from that. There is no Soul, not spark of Genius to feel even though many Inventions may be Great. It's like those Houses tell me: You are just a Number, you fulfill a Function. You live in me, but when you leave you have to paint the Walls in White, repair all the Damage you made and it's like you never where here. Even your Spirit has will be cleaned out.

Edited June 14, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[remember]

21 minutes ago, supremeyingyang said:

Actually I've studied Bauhaus in School very detailed, but from an technical Standpoint, not a philosophical Standpoint. If that's the Spirit of Bauhaus, we weren't taught about it. I remember that Bauhaus should be a Tabula Rasa and 'Form follows Function'. I very much dislike the sterile Type of modern Building that descended from that. There is no Soul, not spark of Genius to feel even though many Inventions may be Great. It's like those Houses tell me: You are just a Number, you fulfill a Function. You live in me, but when you leave you have to paint the Walls in White, repair all the Damage you made and it's like you never where here. Even you Spirit has will be cleaned out.

well, what emerges or does not emerge from a building foundation is ultimately the artists choice, if it is the artists choice to leave sth behind for others to clean up or leave sth behind for others to enjoy is ultimately the artists choice. but that why it’s not about egoic preferences.

a canvas for example has to be white to paint on it - for an experienced artist it might be ok to paint on an already painted canvas, but also that might be artists preference or maybe due to external sircumstances.

Edited June 14, 2020 by remember

[supremeyingyang]

24 minutes ago, remember said:

well, what emerges or does not emerge from a building foundation is ultimately the artists choice, if it is the artists choice to leave sth behind for others to clean up or leave sth behind for others to enjoy is ultimately the artists choice. but that why it’s not about egoic preferences.

I would argue that this is not about egoic preferences but about basic nourishment of the Soul. There is a reason why in many cities the old houses and old parts of town are the most expensive and the place to be. There is a Spirit in 100+ Years Old Houese. But these Houses even had Soul (I think) as they were just build.
Almost everyone in the first World gets housing, but not good soul nourishment from it. I understand we have to sacrifice this higher value. But once Wealth is greater people will build modern Houses with Artistic Finesse like, for Example, in Gothic or Jugendstil.

Edited June 14, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[remember]

3 minutes ago, supremeyingyang said:

But once Wealth is greater people will build modern Houses with Artistic Finesse like, for Example, in Gothic or Jugendstil.

if you call that finesse... i‘m pretty sure finesse like that might emerge again and emerges already everywhere, because thinking to do art does not make it art, but that‘s only emergent, that’s not art.

[supremeyingyang]

21 minutes ago, remember said:

if you call that finesse... i‘m pretty sure finesse like that might emerge again and emerges already everywhere, because thinking to do art does not make it art, but that‘s only emergent, that’s not art.

I see what you mean and at least in my City that is ermerging. Pseudoart Architecture.

What I wanted to express is maybe better phrased like this: There will come something new, that has a spirit like Jugendstil, Fachwerk (...) had possessed back then when it was fresh.

I don't want to bring it quite to the level of the uneducated statement of 'that is not art to me' but when I look at modern high-artistic Buildings, but there is a Kernel of Truth in that. There are a lot of dead ends and that is ok. But they are Dead Ends. Of course that won't mean AT ALL a uncritical Encouragement of 'back to Value of the Past'. It's about the Spirit, the translation of the spirit into modern times. At least to me as an Observant.

Edited June 14, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[supremeyingyang]

Or maybe it's more a Thing of 'we don't knew what we had until we lost it'.

[remember]

@supremeyingyang ok, got you. yes. ofc - although all of them had a center of gravity. which we can’t exactly say for our current time. might be it will build around a certain university or that’s at least the most likable coming close to that.

[supremeyingyang]

1 minute ago, remember said:

@supremeyingyang ok, got you. yes. ofc - although all of them had a center of gravity. which we can’t exactly say for our current time. might be it will build around a certain university or that’s at least the most likable coming close to that.

I read in a Book that our Time (this was in the 80s, but still true) it is not possible to have a center of gravity because everything changes. That with the Universities can be true.

I think in China will come a time when people where there is a desperant need to make the Cities more livable and healthy. This could be one big center of change. But I see that really coming in northern European Countries and also Germany. But Houses can be there for several hundret years, so it's may not that likely in our lifetime to be standart. Maybe we see the Prototypes and first parts of a city where the rich People live... There is something like that I say in Freiburg  called Vauban: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Freiburg+Vauban&t=ffab&iax=images&ia=images

There is a spirit..

[remember]

1 hour ago, supremeyingyang said:

I read in a Book that our Time (this was in the 80s, but still true) it is not possible to have a center of gravity because everything changes. That with the Universities can be true.

I think in China will come a time when people where there is a desperant need to make the Cities more livable and healthy. This could be one big center of change. But I see that really coming in northern European Countries and also Germany. But Houses can be there for several hundret years, so it's may not that likely in our lifetime to be standart. Maybe we see the Prototypes and first parts of a city where the rich People live... There is something like that I say in Freiburg  called Vauban: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Freiburg+Vauban&t=ffab&iax=images&ia=images

There is a spirit..

if you look precisely a prototype of how that could look like you can find that everywhere, even in a favela if someone is able to create it there. if you study bauhaus architecture you can see that there has always been space to develop into green - the problem is just that people are not.

[supremeyingyang]

12 minutes ago, remember said:

if you look precisely a prototype of how that could look like you can find that everywhere, even in a favela if someone is able to create it there. if you study bauhaus architecture you can see that there has always been space to develop into green - the problem is just that people are not.

there are many examples, but Vauban was different in that regard that I could feel a common spirit in the people there to create that on a day to day basis.

Edited June 14, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[remember]

30 minutes ago, supremeyingyang said:

there are many examples, but Vauban was different in that regard that I could feel a common spirit in the people there to create that on a day to day basis.

freiburg in general is a city with a nice spirit - maybe because they have a cathedral 

[supremeyingyang]

1 minute ago, remember said:

freiburg in general is a city with a nice spirit - maybe because they have a cathedral 

..of course!;)

[remember]

they have a good university and a lot of mountain and forrest around them and are connected with the other countries close by. in europe some of the cities built their cathedrals from peoples money, not from church money. there are other structures like markets which make life very communicative and vibrant. a church built through participation and freedom with some green aims will of course flourish more than one which is too strict and authoritarian.

Edited June 14, 2020 by remember

[supremeyingyang]

@remember

I would instead argue that for whatever reasons they are richer in the south of Germany than in the north of Germany.If one City is richer than another City the first City is likely to develop more Consciousness over Time.

• Model: Wealth relative to that Country (0 to 1) * Time in Years = Rise in Consciousness in %
  Example: 0.5 * 10 Years = 5% rise in Consciousness is estimated

In Reality the rise would not that stark.. maybe is more accurate:

• (Wealth*Time)/2= Rise in Consciousness

You could make a Model that less rise is expected the longer in the future it is. But that is to complicated for this Situation and for a throw away Model to illustrate my point. Also, Models are just Tools to find hints towards what goes on in Reality.
 

Edited June 14, 2020 by supremeyingyang