kireet

on which stage on spiral dynamics is actualized.org

70 posts in this topic

54 minutes ago, supremeyingyang said:

I know there is no one for all Solution but I think it's crucial to think about this. As we go on in life we will progress far beyond, so we will be in a prot-leader position because not many see this far. This is how I see it unironically and this isn't coming from Arrogance. One should not think of themself as superior by default but if you more advanced... isn't it harmful to conceal it?

that’s a really difficult topic. it probably depends. although an advanced leader mostly tries to neither impose on others nor probably likes it to be looked down upon. sometimes we have to decide what kind of struggle it is worth fighting and what kind of fight is lost. this does not mean evaluating the value of the other person and if the other person is worthy. it more asks a question about human resources. if you are in a dialogue and flow state you don’t have to constantly struggle and react to ego attacks, its easier to expose your thoughts and feelings and ideas than if you have to be careful. if you are a good leader you probably know how to create a situation of reciprocal trust and understanding. but at the same time you need a good nose to detect hidden conflict and estimate probable outcome. a good leader does not play despicable games, at least as far as truth reaches (sorry that last sentence is a little bitterness).

Edited by remember

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

@remember @Consept

I keep asking me that Question: Is it better to expose people to truths than to let them envolve it naturally? It feels like I have the Answers to Questions that aren't even ask at this point by several people in my life. And people don't like to get these truths. But I received 'Breakpoints' from people who showed me how wrong my point was and I digested it (for example about Vegetarianism and how our Food is bad). But this may not the most effective way.

I know there is no one for all Solution but I think it's crucial to think about this. As we go on in life we will progress far beyond, so we will be in a prot-leader position because not many see this far. This is how I see it unironically and this isn't coming from Arrogance. One should not think of themself as superior by default but if you more advanced... isn't it harmful to conceal it?

Yeah ive thought about this a lot as well, and to @Loving Radiance point it can be frustrating and i do also feel that urge to enlighten them and expand their view, i think ultimately it comes from a somewhat loving place in the sense that it looks like theyve missed something that you can see, im sure there is some kind of ego need to be right in there as well lol. 

But in terms of how to expose people to truths, we have to appreciate that people are entrenched in their beliefs and a lot of their identity is built up around them, we also have to appreciate that others with opposing beliefs have also probably challenged them in the past in which case theyve worked out defensive tactics to defend this belief, a lot of the time using cognitive bias' and logical fallacies, but either it allows them to hold onto beliefs.

So i think one way is to just counter intuitively not talk about it, if theyre a friend maybe understand where they and only really address whatever truth it is, if it comes up in conversation or if they specifically ask your opinion. In this way a seed will be planted even if theyre not aware of it and then you become a part of their journey rather than trying to completely change the course of it. If youre into producing content, i have done in the past, then its an easy way to put information out there and contribute to the resources available. Like the saying says, when the student is ready the teacher will appear. But pushing them toward is just something that doesnt work, there has to be at least a bit of willingness on their part, and from a non-dual perspective its like we are trying to enforce our will on converting people and it just doesnt flow. If you can convert them just like that chances are their mind is not ready and its unlikely they would want the 'truth' when there are so many more exciting narratives out there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

@Serotoninluv

Now as I think of it.. you are right. It's sad to me that the politics forum is realtively low.

The politics forum is green on steroids a lot of the time as well. And just general tribalism from any stage. If one were to point out the relative and illusory nature of politics there, you'd be met with a mechanical response of defensiveness. I have a feeling that people have tried to mimic Leo's mindset of not tolerating bullshit, but it doesn't really work. 

Spiral Dynamics is being uniformly and haphazardly applied to as many things as possible in discussions on the forum, not really a good thing either. It becomes another form of discrimination and hierarchy.  It's especially present in politics and self-actualisation sub-forums. 

This is the problem when a model is too good. People lose faith or investment in their own faculties and defer responsibility of their opinions to an outside authority. I don't know about you guys, but I can say that for myself that my responses to people which involve lots of spiral dynamics talk are more mechanical and more mindless. I'm just regurgitating ungrounded memory. 

Edited by lmfao

Hark ye yet again — the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would it be a good idea to have a stage yellow sub forum where we could discuss any topics in a meta way? I would love that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lmfao said:

The politics forum is green on steroids a lot of the time as well. And just general tribalism from any stage. If one were to point out the relative and illusory nature of politics there, you'd be met with a mechanical response of defensiveness. I have a feeling that people have tried to mimic Leo's mindset of not tolerating bullshit, but it doesn't really work. 

Spiral Dynamics is being uniformly and haphazardly applied to as many things as possible in discussions on the forum, not really a good thing either. It becomes another form of discrimination and hierarchy.  It's especially present in politics and self-actualisation sub-forums. 

This is the problem when a model is too good. People lose faith or investment in their own faculties and defer responsibility of their opinions to an outside authority. I don't know about you guys, but I can say that for myself that my responses to people which involve lots of spiral dynamics talk are more mechanical and more mindless. I'm just regurgitating ungrounded memory. 

Yea I wrote some things a month ago about the limits of spiral dynamics closely related to this. To be truly open minded you have to be able to be at ease with any paradigm without resistance coming up in the body - one which is that spiral dynamics is completely wrong, or that stage red is higher than turquoise regardless of whether or not it is true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, andyjohnsonman said:

Yea I wrote some things a month ago about the limits of spiral dynamics closely related to this. To be truly open minded you have to be able to be at ease with any paradigm without resistance coming up in the body - one which is that spiral dynamics is completely wrong, or that stage red is higher than turquoise regardless of whether or not it is true.

this is kind of funny because if spiral dynamics is wrong is because it’s the way someone interpretes it and if spiral dynamics is right is the way how someone interpretes it. if spiral dynamics was upside down, then beige, absolute survival without hesitation, would be the highest goal on earth and in space regardless of outcome or other existence. but then this would probably not be the forum i would want to join. because that’s already how most of the world works.

@andyjohnsonman thank you for that perspective!

i guess if spiral dynamics was completely free from labels it wouldn’t be a map, it would be a blank page.

Edited by remember

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, supremeyingyang said:

 

@andyjohnsonman

I thought about a Yellow Subforum. Who could write there? Everyone? What is a 'Yellow' meta Topic? Who is to say?

Any topics can be discussed but instead of being tied down to the content they would be analysed through a stage yellow lens. Yea that would be a problem establishing whether the people talking in it were yellow and moderating how yellow conversations would occur. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The channel? Yellow. I expect more from Turquoise.

The forum is a mix of everything, literally. 

Edit: I take that back because the last videos of Leo after he healed have really touched me. The channel as a whole is Yellow but the last few videos where Turqouise.

Edited by Aquarius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@andyjohnsonman

It would be a big accomblishment to establish such a culture in a sub forum. Yellow exists in the few, there seem to be no Yellow Cities and very few Communities.. It would be a hard work and we had to create new community rules.

It could be the case that Yellow Conversation are so deep and dedicated to outcome that few other will enjoy it. But! I forsee some harsh people will come, that should be there if you look at their stage of development, that'll take the lead if there isn't a security system in place.

Another Point. I expect that a gathering of state Yellow type Individuals would need a common goal to work together. Something like: Invent a Yellow Communication Praxis to help future Generations to move into that OR Someone brings a big problem in and asks for Yellow counsel. Like a Yellow all topics allowed Stackoverflow.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

just general tribalism from any stage. If one were to point out the relative and illusory nature of politics there, you'd be met with a mechanical response of defensiveness. 

Be aware that pointing out the relative and illusory nature of anything can itself be an excellent tool for tribal warfare. You can apply it to any argument or opinion you don't like, no need to even taylor it to the topic of a specific discussion. This sort of weaponisation is quite common on the forum. Also, if you go to a politics forum and say that all politics is illusory, it can come off as a preacher who is not interested in a productive discussion.

 

4 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

It would be a big accomblishment to establish such a culture in a sub forum. Yellow exists in the few, there seem to be no Yellow Cities and very few Communities.. It would be a hard work and we had to create new community rules.

It could be the case that Yellow Conversation are so deep and dedicated to outcome that few other will enjoy it. But! I forsee some harsh people will come, that should be there if you look at their stage of development, that'll take the lead if there isn't a security system in place.

Another Point. I expect that a gathering of state Yellow type Individuals would need a common goal to work together. Something like: Invent a Yellow Communication Praxis to help future Generations to move into that OR Someone brings a big problem in and asks for Yellow counsel. Like a Yellow all topics allowed Stackoverflow.

The vibe I get from this post is like:
- There is us (the yellow people) and them (the less developed). The property of being civilized is hardwired to the person and does not depend on context or state of mind.
- We need rules.
- We need to secure our civilized space by building wall and gatekeepers to keep the keep the forces of chaos out.
- We need to specify a goal in advance (top down organization).

This sounds like the kind of solution that Blue would build. Yellow is more about openness and self organization. So I would see points like
- How to create a space that attracts open minded people? Everyone should be able to find it, but it would not look particularly interesting to a dogmatic person. A big part of that is not to form a new ingroup. Green example: yoga classes do not need gatekeepers for keeping hooligans out, they just don't attract them.
- How to cultivate an ambience of good faith and trust in that space? That needs more subtle things than rules and guards. For example: the police is there to keep me safe, but the presence of many officers usually means an unsafe situation.
- What's the best medium? For example something that rewards long texts over bite-size memes. Or maybe prefer a zoom-call with video over an anonymous chat for more personal vulnerability.

Edited by Wordless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Wordless said:

Be aware that pointing out the relative and illusory nature of anything can itself be an excellent tool for tribal warfare. You can apply it to any argument or opinion you don't like, no need to even taylor it to the topic of a specific discussion. This sort of weaponisation is quite common on the forum. Also, if you go to a politics forum and say that all politics is illusory, it can come off as a preacher who is not interested in a productive discussion.

This is true but would depend on the context of the situation as well as the person conveying that message and the person receiving it, for example if someone is saying naturally we are selfish and therefore we should be right leaning, then it would be important to point out that the idea of right or left is illusory and created therefore it cant inform our human nature and you should research into human nature which itself is constantly evolving. 

I do take your point that it could be used as a weapon but that would depend on where you are on the spiral, all positions cant be held onto tightly as then it will lead to a fruitless debate so politics should be seen as illusory but worked on within the awareness of that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Wordless

Hey Wordless, thanks for you criticism. It is appreciated!

1 hour ago, Wordless said:

Be aware that pointing out the relative and illusory nature of anything can itself be an excellent tool for tribal warfare. You can apply it to any argument or opinion you don't like, no need to even taylor it to the topic of a specific discussion.

That is so. We may have a tendency as humans to tribalism if we are under pressure. This is something very tricky, something that I find in myself often.

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

The vibe I get from this post is like:

- There is us (the yellow people) and them (the less developed). The property of being civilized is hardwired to the person and does not depend on context or state of mind.

Well, this is not something to brag or be arrogant about. If you really Yellow, then you are a Elite in a very meritocratic Way. From Consciousness follows some kind of duty. I like the metaphor of a Park Ranger who is the middle man between nature, Native Americans, the Government, the people who visit the Park... and he brings everything into a harmony not by forcing his opinion onto everyone but because he is able to understand them good enough to talk so that they can understand each other - like an Interpreter.

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

The property of being civilized is hardwired to the person and does not depend on context or state of mind.

 

I unironically don't understand what that you want to say in THAT context.

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

- We need rules.

Yes.

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

- We need to secure our civilized space by building wall and gatekeepers to keep the keep the forces of chaos out.

It's like an World Class Orchestra, take the Berlin Orchestra as an Example. They don't only take the best musicians but also only that ones that are in harmony with the rest of the orchestra. Everyone has a Veto and I believe if someone says no, that candidate can't be in there.
Don't be afraid. There would be enough Chaos left;)
This does NOT mean that one should be disrespectful toward those one perceives as from lesser stages. This does NOT mean that one should not talk to them. But if, and only if a given group would like to have a Yellow Discussion Forum, it would be NOT open for everyone. This what I think at at least. Most likely you would need a bailsman to get into it.

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

- We need to specify a goal in advance (top down organization).

I think it is crucial to specify a goal. I read the Yellow Archetype as someone who is, beneath other things, Green + the desire to accomplish a higher, rather non-egotistical, goal. This goal here could be simply to have high Quality Discussions. But you need a shared goal, a vision if you will is maybe a better word.

I do NOT want a top down Organization, that would be not quite the sense of a gathering of Yellow people if you just say them what they have to think, eh?

 

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

This sounds like the kind of solution that Blue would build. Yellow is more about openness and self organization

I'm not that sure that Blue would build that. It's not Blue just because there are rules, a vision and it's closed. It's just that these Discussions need a care and protection like a garden. I lost count on the green Projects I was in that went South because one Individual forced itself into a Dictator Position. I also lost count on the Green Projects that amounted to nothing,  because there was NO organization.

Well, could be my personal bad Experience - I give you that;)

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

- How to create a space that attracts open minded people? Everyone should be able to find it, but it would not look particularly interesting to a dogmatic person. A big part of that is not to form a new ingroup. Green example: yoga classes do not need gatekeepers for keeping hooligans out, they just don't attract them.

If Yoga Classes would be as disruptive as I think a Yellow Archetype really is you may would have Hooligans of some kind there. But what you said works greatly as long as no one comes there to disrupt it, I just think that a high Quality Forum on the Internet wouldn't be in such a luxurious Position. It's like Stackoverflow: You gotta follow strict rules to post there. This is their way to maintain Quality and usefulness.

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

- How to cultivate an ambience of good faith and trust in that space? That needs more subtle things than rules and guards. For example: the police is there to keep me safe, but the presence of many officers usually means an unsafe situation.

Exactly! The creation of that faith and trust would be the kernel of that space - and the hardest, most demanding work that would need to go into it.

2 hours ago, Wordless said:

- What's the best medium? For example something that rewards long texts over bite-size memes. Or maybe prefer a zoom-call with video over an anonymous chat for more personal vulnerability.

I think of a Variety of Modes. 1. A  Gladiator like mode about a Topic between 2 or more Individuals plus Spectators who Comment is, 2. One Person writes an Essay and other People critic and discuss it from several Points of View (or not if it is bad written^^), 3. An Expert, for Example In Football or Psychology or whatever, gets Questions from the People and Answer them, discuss with them..., 4. Roleplay. You have a Domain like 'the State' and everyone in the Groups takes a role like Politics, Administration, Police, Lower Class, Middle Class, Upper Class, Economy, judiciary... and then they discuss for some time ....

...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stage rainbow of course. 

aaafgh.jpg


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

I unironically don't understand what that you want to say in THAT context.

I tried to argue that the ability to fit in might be highly context dependent. So I propose that there is a large group of people who are prone to fall into tribalism when there is already a fight, but are wise enough not to throw the first stone.

The image that just came to my mind is people entering a cathedral. You might think that very extroverted people are just not fit for that place because they are always so loud and agitated. But when they enter they can sense that their usual patterns are not a good match to the environment, and are able to adapt.

I guess my main point is that attracting and transforming those who are ready seems more important than building a gated community where the elite can do its thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Wordless

I boy, i really craved for an Answer.

7 minutes ago, Wordless said:

I guess my main point is that attracting and transforming those who are ready seems more important than building a gated community where the elite can do its thing.

That Picture of the Cathedral, not kidding, is beautiful. With such an Atmosphere it would be good to let people in. Now, a Cathedral is not just there. You have to build it, fill it with Art and Meaning. Then you have to maintain it and even renovate it. It's a Ideal. It's Inspiring. It's not purely Reality, but the Manifestation of a Vision. I think in the Middle Ages in Europe the People could physically feel the Inspiration when they entered and it changed them if they where from a little village or so. Nowadays Cathedrals are not that bit, not that special. Maybe it's the Inspiration that Cathedrals once had (or maybe for other than me still have) that would be needed for such a Yellow Forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Wordless said:

I tried to argue that the ability to fit in might be highly context dependent. So I propose that there is a large group of people who are prone to fall into tribalism when there is already a fight, but are wise enough not to throw the first stone.

The image that just came to my mind is people entering a cathedral. You might think that very extroverted people are just not fit for that place because they are always so loud and agitated. But when they enter they can sense that their usual patterns are not a good match to the environment, and are able to adapt.

I guess my main point is that attracting and transforming those who are ready seems more important than building a gated community where the elite can do its thing.

Yeah nice analogy, so in theory you'd want to create a space that if people enter they could learn and improve from. The only issue being that space would have to be majority let's yellow people on this case. If any others hold the majority yellow will be labelled within that context and any nuance yellow points have will be missed. 

In practice what happens is that if a thread is mainly green and yellow and even orange, when someone who is blue or even red comes in they can't grasp that its not a binary situation of people that agree with me and people that don't. They think because everyone doesn't agree with them that those people don't get it and are just liberals for example or have been brainwashed by some opposing movement. What makes it worse is that they believe themselves to be yellow so they think their opinion is completely independent. It's this unawareness which makes it hard to talk, if everyone comes in willing to learn there's no problem no matter what stage they're at 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now