Roger Penrose Struggling To Explain Consciousness

[RendHeaven]

53 minutes ago, Razorback said:

Look at Megamind over here comparing Roger Penrose to a retarded child. Very big brain*, much enlightened.

*imaginary brain of course, brains aren't real dummy!

It's an apt comparison. Do you disagree?

[Razorback]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

It's an apt comparison. Do you disagree?

Of course I disagree, but nevermind my opinion, I'm just another dumb materialist, what do I know? Besides the concept of falsifiability...

[AtheisticNonduality]

23 minutes ago, Razorback said:

Of course I disagree, but nevermind my opinion, I'm just another dumb materialist, what do I know? Besides the concept of falsifiability...

Prove a physical world.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Roy said:

@Leo Gura Isn't it being turned on and off in the relative sense of being (literally) awake/asleep and then eventually in the ultimate sense alive/dead?

Is the misunderstanding making the distinction between the consciousness of humans/living things and the Consciousness of the Universe/God? A duality that of course has to collapse in the big picture.

Penrose doesn't grasp that reality must fundamentally be groundless. He is trying to ground consciousness is some other thing, like microtubules, brains, matter, quantum wave functions, math, or whatever else. But consciousness cannot ever be grounded in any such thing because consciousness is that which imagines those things.

That is the fundamental insight he's missing.

The reason consciousness is non-computable is because it is infinite and it imagines computation. Computation is a sub-set of consciousness, so of course consciousness itself cannot be computable. That notion is simply absurd. So he's got the right intuition but he's missing an awakening to Infinity.

[The observer]

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

The conflict is because your definition of Consciousness is "existence itself" whereas scientists define it as "perception of existence".  

Be careful not to blend science with scientists. I wish scientists would define consciousness as you are saying. That's the whole problem. They define consciousness as some particular brain activities, and they assume that that equals perception. That is scientists' key mistake. When did science ever say that brain activity = perception? That's simply deluded scientists, not science. Science states clearly that there are correlations, but never a causation. Deluded materialist scientists make the mistake and jump to conclusions very quickly without examining their assumptions.

[RendHeaven]

20 hours ago, The observer said:

Be careful not to blend science with scientists. I wish scientists would define consciousness as you are saying. That's the whole problem. They define consciousness as some particular brain activities, and they assume that that equals perception. That is scientists' key mistake. When did science ever say that brain activity = perception? That's simply deluded scientists, not science. Science states clearly that there are correlations, but never a causation. Deluded materialist scientists make the mistake and jump to conclusions very quickly without examining their assumptions.

That's very interesting. Do you have any scientific literature in mind, or are these ideas a synopsis you heard from a secondary source?

[The observer]

2 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

are these ideas a synopsis you heard from a secondary source?

You could say that.

[Scholar]

There are a lot of wonderful dynamics at play here.

We have to first make a distinction between Sentience and Consciousness. Consciousness is Existence, it is everything that Is and can Be. Sentience is a very particular form of Existence which we refer to as the mind or colloquially as consciousness

 

The universe is Consciousness, every particle is Consciousness, everything "material" is Consciousness. The wonderful thing is that it is not merely that there is a First Cause that is somehow Groundless. The miracle of Nature is that each element is truly embedded into Groundlessness, which allows the Illusion of cause and effect.

 

Fundamentally the question is what is the mind in terms of it's relationship to the world? Why is the rock not sentient, but the human brain is?

And more importantly, why is the human brain only at certain points sentient? Why is it only sentient in very specific configurations and states?

 

The concept of microtubules are a very important step into the right direction. There is a recognition that fundamentally sentience must somehow be captured by the physical world. This is essential. Each aspect of this universe is an expression from Infinite Potential. Infinite Potential contains every possible State of Being unmanifested. Once Infinite Potential is expressed into a limited manifestation it will lose it's potential. It will be limitation until it dissolves into Nothingness/infinite Potential.

 

What is the brain fundamentally doing, then? The brain is capturing States of unmanifested Infinite Potential. The microtubules in this way allow for the unstable Infinite Potential to be balanced in a very particular manner. This allows for that Infinite Potential to be guided to generate Sentience or every particular aspects of Infinite Reality. It can guide the Expression of Nothingness into particular States of Being, like Colors, Sounds, Feelings and all other specific dimensions of Reality even the Universe itself.

This is crucial to understand, because this means Minds in general can literally Understand anything possible if the structures allow for that particular Expression. The Mind is tapping into Infinite Potential and can therefore Reflect anything in Existence, any Form possible. This is because the brain is basically using Infinite Potential to express very certain outcomes.

 

But here is another crucial part. What the brain does fundamentally is completely miraculous. The fact that a certain Expression can be Guided can only be due to the Will of God. There is no other way, because no limited Structure could possibly chose from Infinite Potential for something particular to manifest. This requires the Free Will and Infinite Wisdom. After all, there is truly Infinite Potential and for any lmiited form to chose from that Infinite Potential, it would required to dissolve into Infinite Potential.

What the brain is is a machine which simply limits the expression of Infinite Potential. It's an Infinite Potential Limitation machine. So it might very well be that Quantum Physics is important in this, because at some point it will reach Nothingness. That Nothingness is what is being Limited by the brain.

This is the mindblowing thing about this, you can Frame this in Infinite ways. You could say that there are Infinite pieces of Nothingness or Infinite Potential which themselves contain All of Existence, and each one of them is manipulated by a Manifested piece of Infinite Potential to manifest into a particular form of Limited Potential. And every single one of these Infinite Potentials contains literally every possible combination of Infinite Potentials manipulating each other into the expression of certain Finite Potentials. This is how you could look at reality.

This means there is no beginning and end. There is no fundamental thing. The universe does not cause the brain which causes sentience. Everything causes everything equally. Everything contains everything.

Your Sentience contains the Universe, all Universes, all of Existence, every possible form of manifestation and intercombination of manifestation.

 

So in "reality", there is no brain causing or capturing anything. Everything simply is a miracle manifested into Reality so directly it is simply unfathomable to grasp. But yet there is consistency to it, and Illusion of Cause and Effect. And all of this can theoretically be Understood directly, by manifesting literally All of it within a single Mind. Your mind could literally manifest the entire universe, if God's Will deemed it so.

The miracle is not Unlimited Potential, the miracle is Limitation. This is fundamentally what science does not grasp yet.

 

So the right question in this context would be:

How can the brain limit Infinity into a particular, consistent and guided way? This would, however, assume that it is not Infinity itself that creates the limitation and therefore the illusion of the structure of the brain.

 

Science is not creating or discovering anything. Rather Infinity is allowing for the Illusion of Science discovering and creating things. Science is fundamentally the Mercy of God, as everything else in Existence is.

Science is the Impossible deemed Possible. Yet Science today is so arrogant as to assume to be the arbitrator of the Possible and Impossible, when infact it itself is Impossible and only Possible becaused Free Will deemed it so. Scientists should be on their knees crying in gratitude for Science having been allowed to be made possible.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Scholar

[Adamq8]

On 5/25/2020 at 0:13 PM, Scholar said:

There are a lot of wonderful dynamics at play here.

We have to first make a distinction between Sentience and Consciousness. Consciousness is Existence, it is everything that Is and can Be. Sentience is a very particular form of Existence which we refer to as the mind or colloquially as consciousness

 

The universe is Consciousness, every particle is Consciousness, everything "material" is Consciousness. The wonderful thing is that it is not merely that there is a First Cause that is somehow Groundless. The miracle of Nature is that each element is truly embedded into Groundlessness, which allows the Illusion of cause and effect.

 

Fundamentally the question is what is the mind in terms of it's relationship to the world? Why is the rock not sentient, but the human brain is?

And more importantly, why is the human brain only at certain points sentient? Why is it only sentient in very specific configurations and states?

 

The concept of microtubules are a very important step into the right direction. There is a recognition that fundamentally sentience must somehow be captured by the physical world. This is essential. Each aspect of this universe is an expression from Infinite Potential. Infinite Potential contains every possible State of Being unmanifested. Once Infinite Potential is expressed into a limited manifestation it will lose it's potential. It will be limitation until it dissolves into Nothingness/infinite Potential.

 

What is the brain fundamentally doing, then? The brain is capturing States of unmanifested Infinite Potential. The microtubules in this way allow for the unstable Infinite Potential to be balanced in a very particular manner. This allows for that Infinite Potential to be guided to generate Sentience or every particular aspects of Infinite Reality. It can guide the Expression of Nothingness into particular States of Being, like Colors, Sounds, Feelings and all other specific dimensions of Reality even the Universe itself.

This is crucial to understand, because this means Minds in general can literally Understand anything possible if the structures allow for that particular Expression. The Mind is tapping into Infinite Potential and can therefore Reflect anything in Existence, any Form possible. This is because the brain is basically using Infinite Potential to express very certain outcomes.

 

But here is another crucial part. What the brain does fundamentally is completely miraculous. The fact that a certain Expression can be Guided can only be due to the Will of God. There is no other way, because no limited Structure could possibly chose from Infinite Potential for something particular to manifest. This requires the Free Will and Infinite Wisdom. After all, there is truly Infinite Potential and for any lmiited form to chose from that Infinite Potential, it would required to dissolve into Infinite Potential.

What the brain is is a machine which simply limits the expression of Infinite Potential. It's an Infinite Potential Limitation machine. So it might very well be that Quantum Physics is important in this, because at some point it will reach Nothingness. That Nothingness is what is being Limited by the brain.

This is the mindblowing thing about this, you can Frame this in Infinite ways. You could say that there are Infinite pieces of Nothingness or Infinite Potential which themselves contain All of Existence, and each one of them is manipulated by a Manifested piece of Infinite Potential to manifest into a particular form of Limited Potential. And every single one of these Infinite Potentials contains literally every possible combination of Infinite Potentials manipulating each other into the expression of certain Finite Potentials. This is how you could look at reality.

This means there is no beginning and end. There is no fundamental thing. The universe does not cause the brain which causes sentience. Everything causes everything equally. Everything contains everything.

Your Sentience contains the Universe, all Universes, all of Existence, every possible form of manifestation and intercombination of manifestation.

 

So in "reality", there is no brain causing or capturing anything. Everything simply is a miracle manifested into Reality so directly it is simply unfathomable to grasp. But yet there is consistency to it, and Illusion of Cause and Effect. And all of this can theoretically be Understood directly, by manifesting literally All of it within a single Mind. Your mind could literally manifest the entire universe, if God's Will deemed it so.

The miracle is not Unlimited Potential, the miracle is Limitation. This is fundamentally what science does not grasp yet.

 

So the right question in this context would be:

How can the brain limit Infinity into a particular, consistent and guided way? This would, however, assume that it is not Infinity itself that creates the limitation and therefore the illusion of the structure of the brain.

 

Science is not creating or discovering anything. Rather Infinity is allowing for the Illusion of Science discovering and creating things. Science is fundamentally the Mercy of God, as everything else in Existence is.

Science is the Impossible deemed Possible. Yet Science today is so arrogant as to assume to be the arbitrator of the Possible and Impossible, when infact it itself is Impossible and only Possible becaused Free Will deemed it so. Scientists should be on their knees crying in gratitude for Science having been allowed to be made possible.

This was really an awsome explaination!!?

[gettoefl]

On 5/25/2020 at 11:13 AM, Scholar said:

 

So the right question in this context would be:

How can the brain limit Infinity into a particular, consistent and guided way? This would, however, assume that it is not Infinity itself that creates the limitation and therefore the illusion of the structure of the brain.

 

Science is not creating or discovering anything. Rather Infinity is allowing for the Illusion of Science discovering and creating things. Science is fundamentally the Mercy of God, as everything else in Existence is.

Science is the Impossible deemed Possible. Yet Science today is so arrogant as to assume to be the arbitrator of the Possible and Impossible, when infact it itself is Impossible and only Possible becaused Free Will deemed it so. Scientists should be on their knees crying in gratitude for Science having been allowed to be made possible.

i believe the scientist Donald Hoffman has written books trying to answer these questions ... check him out on youtube and twitter

 

https://twitter.com/donalddhoffman?lang=en