5-MeO-DMT Awakenings: From Naïve Realism to Symmetrical Enlightenment

[Razorback]

@Consilience

Interesting.

I agree that the only thing one can be absolutely sure of is that... something is happening. In other words, the fact of consciousness.

All other assumptions must be derived from that fact and as you say, require infinite regression of axioms and reasons for them. You seem to be pointing to Godel's incompleteness theorem, I wonder if you are familiar with it?

That said, you did mention that I was technically correct (the best kind of correct) regarding how in the hypothetical material universe, you would be unable to tell the difference as to which was more fundamental, consciousness or matter. From the point of view of the observer, both are indistinguishable. And yes, there is no proof as you say. But Godel's incompleteness theorem shows how such kind of proof is impossible.

So is absolute proof the best or only way to make one's own beliefs correspond to reality?
Wouldn't that lead directly to solipsism?

You have no proof that behind these words you are reading there was a conscious agent having the experience of writing them. You have no certainty but there must be some level of confidence that tells you yes, you are talking to some other node of experience somewhere beyond your current perception.

We must all make assumptions. If both worlds I described are indistinguishable,  it is only a matter of looking at which explanation has the most evidence to make a choice. And not a binary choice of either true or not true. My beliefs fall on a spectrum from probable to improbable. I hold no certainties.

[Razorback]

@Leo Gura

Quote

Don't disagree.

Sorry, can't help it.

[Consilience]

@Razorback you’re right Im pointing to something along the lines of his incompleteness theorem although in my humble opinion, it’s a fairly basic observation of logic. I havent studied the theorem in depth.

The thing, absolute truth does not require axioms. Even if there were a material universe, what grounds the existence of material? In other words, what is it that is allowing there to be the existence of material at all? That is Truth. That is Enlightenment. Find that, but not as an intellectual notion, find it in your direct experience. Materialism, even if true, has nothing to do with Absolute Truth. 

But please understand materialism is just a belief. The manifestation of perceptive experience is not and the “truth” in which existence itself is derived “out of” is not a belief either. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Consilience

[The Lucid Dreamer]

4 hours ago, Razorback said:

Saying consciousness is what reality is, leaves us without knowing what consciousness is. We know it's this immaterial experience thing, but it seems like a rather complex system to be the ultimate fundamental building block. Math, on the other hand, is self-sustaining. It is the rules of logic themselves, from the simplest possible bit of information to infinity in complexity. You can't make a model of it using something else, but you can use It to model anything you want (computation).

Sorry, I forgot to respond to this part.

Consciousness being a “complex” system is a projection of the mind. Reality does not see anything as any more or less “complex” than anything else, and further, there isn’t even a cause and effect “system” or process that is taking place that could be complex to begin with.  It is just infinity being itself, and the human brain is part of it. The only one who is deciding it is any more complex than anything else is you.  

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Razorback said:

@Consilience

Interesting.

I agree that the only thing one can be absolutely sure of is that... something is happening. In other words, the fact of consciousness.

All other assumptions must be derived from that fact and as you say, require infinite regression of axioms and reasons for them. You seem to be pointing to Godel's incompleteness theorem, I wonder if you are familiar with it?

That said, you did mention that I was technically correct (the best kind of correct) regarding how in the hypothetical material universe, you would be unable to tell the difference as to which was more fundamental, consciousness or matter. From the point of view of the observer, both are indistinguishable. And yes, there is no proof as you say. But Godel's incompleteness theorem shows how such kind of proof is impossible.

So is absolute proof the best or only way to make one's own beliefs correspond to reality?
Wouldn't that lead directly to solipsism?

You have no proof that behind these words you are reading there was a conscious agent having the experience of writing them. You have no certainty but there must be some level of confidence that tells you yes, you are talking to some other node of experience somewhere beyond your current perception.

We must all make assumptions. If both worlds I described are indistinguishable,  it is only a matter of looking at which explanation has the most evidence to make a choice. And not a binary choice of either true or not true. My beliefs fall on a spectrum from probable to improbable. I hold no certainties.

You're totally lost in the ego mind man.

Drop all that bullshit and start doing serious spiritual practice and you will become conscious of the ultimate nature of reality.

You are God so you are capable of being completely conscious of yourself.

All your assumptions about people having assumptions are themselves just bullshit assumptions. Spirituality is not about assumptions, it's about direct access to Absolute Truth.

Stop playing games and get to work.

Start by opening your mind to the possibility that you are full of shit and you know less than nothing.

[AlwaysBeNice]

Acedemia perfectly prepares on how not to get enlightened

[Member]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Drop all that bullshit and start doing serious spiritual practice and you will become conscious of the ultimate nature of reality.

You are God so you are capable of being completely conscious of yourself.

If you become conscious is anything you can do out of the ordinary other than standing passive like a tree? What's the purpose of searching for a higher understanding through mind altering substances if consciousness is all there is? It smells like hypocrisy here.

[Bittu]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You're totally lost in the ego mind man.

Drop all that bullshit and start doing serious spiritual practice and you will become conscious of the ultimate nature of reality.

You are God so you are capable of being completely conscious of yourself.

All your assumptions about people having assumptions are themselves just bullshit assumptions. Spirituality is not about assumptions, it's about direct access to Absolute Truth.

Stop playing games and get to work.

Start by opening your mind to the possibility that you are full of shit and you know less than nothing.

I just read this last statement "Start by opening your mind to the possibility that you are full of shit and you know less than nothing"

And it hit me. I am Leo.

[The Lucid Dreamer]

@Member Awakening transcends pragmatism.  
 

The purpose is Love, to remember your true identity as God and to bask in the full beauty of existence. 

A metaphysics of materialism will never give you that. 

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Bittu said:

I just read this last statement "Start by opening your mind to the possibility that you are full of shit and you know less than nothing"

And it hit me. I am Leo.

[Dilusuality]

On 5/20/2020 at 7:03 AM, The Lucid Dreamer said:

Donald Hoffman is an example of a stage orange/green materialist starting to see the writing on the wall, but who is still clinging to certain scientific dogma.  He claims he thinks that consciousness is fundamental, but then turns around and says in order to confirm that, he should be able to create a mathematical model of consciousness. This is laughably naive.  Is consciousness fundamental, or is mathematics? You can’t have it both ways. He doesn’t understand that mathematics arises out of consciousness. Consciousness does not arise out of mathematics. 

But can't you have it both ways? If its consciousness all the way up and around, it's all, then mathematics is synonymous with it.

Also, I don't believe he's ever stated that it arises from consciousness but that they go skin and bone. He definitely seems to be allude to the idea that consciousness is fundamental, right?