Community is the key for psychedelics to start working their magic

[Vladimir]

https://evolvingearthpodcast.com/2019/11/21/10-benjamin-de-loenen-on-ancestral-wisdom-ayahuasca-and-remembering-who-we-are/

"ICEERS is dedicated to transforming society’s relationship with psychoactive plants. We do so by engaging with some of the fundamental issues resulting from the globalization of ayahuasca, iboga, and other ethnobotanicals"

This is the most intelligent conversation I found that actually proposes solid Stage Yellow solutions for addressing the root cause of humanity's suffering . They talk about reviving of plant medicine ceremonies within a community, together in a group. Community is the key ingredient, you can't separate individual health from public health and environment, we all know these are interconnected. 

"Plants are connections to ancestral wisdom that still lives on in the cultures around Amazon and abroad."

I think this is one point actualized.org seems to miss. These are not just "psychedelics pills" to be swallowed by yourself in a closet. There are entire cultural / ancestral wisdom systems that allowed the Shipibo shamans of Peru, for example, to preserve that wisdom, when most cultures have failed.

We need ancestral wisdom in order to be a flourishing community on the planet - this is the condor (the heart) and the actualized.org is the eagle (the mind). This is an ancient prophecy that when the two come together there will be peace on Earth. And the catalyst here is "psychedelics / plant medicines in a community."

I'm surprised this isn't much talked about here at actualized.org, I think this is the most important thing for helping humanity to raise consciousness and creating flourishing communities that care about the environment.

[Preety_India]

A very important post. 

Thanks for sharing 

 I need more ayahuasca for my retreats and experiences. 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Community is a very tricky thing. Easily turns into a cult and devilry.

Any system created to spread awakening will be corrupted.

[GodDesireOnlyLove]

@Leo Gura there is degree and layer of corruption but Indeed.

To me being under tier1 looks like a corruption.

At this point pushing green is the best move I guess

Edited April 20, 2020 by GodDesireOnlyLove

[Vladimir]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Community is a very tricky thing. Easily turns into a cult and devilry.

Any system created to spread awakening will be corrupted.

The point is not to "spread awakening". It's to remind people about their humanity and develop a sense of belonging. We are disconnected from our bodies, the Earth and we're destroying our home. There needs to be a coming together of ancient ancestral wisdom and modern technology. This is not an easy thing, and a tricky thing for sure.

If you listen to the podcast Benjamin mentions that they have to work "in-between the worlds":

"Indigenous world - everything is interconnected, plants are spiritual teachers. Psychedelic medicalization - psychedelics, therapy, integrating psychedelics into modern health care system. United nations - ivory tower, people are deciding how the world will be handled. Grassroots - drug monitoring authorities. Different worldviews and knowledge. In this space, uncomfortable clashes happen."

I'm really inspired that something like this actually exists and I can vouch for the importance of the ceremonial approach to plant medicines like Ayahuasca as I have spent 5 months in the jungle last year, dieting plants and building relationships and learning medicines songs of 6 different master plants.

[Leo Gura]

Whatever the community, it's gonna get ideological and political.

[Vladimir]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Whatever the community, it's gonna get ideological and political.

Leo, just listen to the podcast please. The point is to develop healthy relationships with people that you live around and have ways to share wisdom with other communities.  Integration, as you probably know, is the most important thing, having a supporting community is key to integrating these "peak" mystical experiences. 

"A community model for ceremonial use of plants. Where people can come together, have ceremonies, celebrate life together, grief together, connect, bond, laugh. Having accountability in all directions of the members that participate. This approach can avoid a lot of the problems that can come with globalization of plant medicines."

 

[Leo Gura]

@Vladimir I get your point. Just adding the other side of that coin.

[Forestluv]

@Vladimir I did an Aya retreat in a small community in the mountains of Peru. There was a very high conscious level within the community, similar to what you describe. I would say it was even higher than yellow into Turqoise. Yet I have a hard time seeing this manifest on a larger scale, like within a city. As well, I wasn’t in the community long enough to pick up on subtle unhealthy dynamics. 

[remember]

this is an internet forum - there is not anything nor is there no thing to expect. 

@Vladimir you better protect these tribes by not even talking about them. that’s the harsh truth - because what ever methods you try people are egos, in spiritual online forums more so than anywhere else. the need to explore anything knows no respect for traditions, no respect for the fragility of their belief system or way of living or their survival, nor their love – that’s the effect of globalization. its all just about their technology, the rest to be left to rott.

@Leo Gura its not becoming anything it has been political from the start without ideology attached, ideology is what you make of it by denying that.

Edited April 20, 2020 by remember

[UrbanS]

@Vladimir  In my eyes, this very forum a step in the direction you are talking about. Communities in the age of internet does not have to look the same as they once did.

We all gather here to learn and get support from eachother.

[remember]

@UrbanS yes but you don’t even have experience with this forum yet. it sadly turns out to be more selfexploitative than helpful for anyone - if you have anything to give you will be on the loosing end.

[Vladimir]

11 hours ago, remember said:

@Vladimir you better protect these tribes by not even talking about them. that’s the harsh truth - because what ever methods you try people are egos, in spiritual online forums more so than anywhere else. the need to explore anything knows no respect for traditions, no respect for the fragility of their belief system or way of living or their survival, nor their love – that’s the effect of globalization. its all just about their technology, the rest to be left to rott.

If this is true, then how is it possible that I care and respect their traditions, belief systems, their survival and their love? 

Of course this is tricky, it's never been done before and that's why the guy in the podcast created his organization, to try to offer solutions for these very challenges and that's why I feel hopeful that somebody is actually taking steps for making this happen. 

Globalization of plant medicines is inevitable, it's the medicine our world needs and we need to learn from people that have preserved the wisdom of working with them properly and efficiently. The key part of it all being the return of a living community, not virtual.

10 hours ago, UrbanS said:

@Vladimir  In my eyes, this very forum a step in the direction you are talking about. Communities in the age of internet does not have to look the same as they once did.

We all gather here to learn and get support from eachother.

This place is fine for starting a dialogue, but not building a real community. We need to see, hear and feel each other in person to bond and remember what it means to connect with other people.

 

[remember]

1 hour ago, Vladimir said:

If this is true, then how is it possible that I care and respect their traditions, belief systems, their survival and their love? 

pretty simple, because you do. but you also have a direct connection. its possible because they are a part of you – even though you are not a part of them. but how much would you protect their rituals and ceremonies if it was about a discussion about them. how holy are their sacred ceremonies to you?   it already starts with that.

it sounds nice and ethnological truths are probably all welcome here - but for example ayahuasca was never meant for the sick it was meant for the healers – good luck telling that to people around here. 

the more people who want to explore it ethnobotanically the more there will be exploitation. in some sense its good if only shamans learn it there who have the ability to respect the traditions and then create experiences for the average psychonaut.

it can’t be close to the same it originally was used for, because its not the same – people use it to find themselves they are not as deeply rooted in nature as these cultures are. themselves does not include these people. they awaken to solipsism.

i once watched some video where alan watts talked about how they searched for some kind of mushroom in the i think seventies because they heard of a sacred plant ritual. it was not a respectful approach towards the traditions of the tribes who used these plants since generations. its a jackass approach – and that’s what you will mostly find around here. 

there will be some who are respectful and others who would behave like the spanish when they discovered paradise.

Edited April 20, 2020 by remember

[Vladimir]

28 minutes ago, remember said:

pretty simple, because you do. but you also have a direct connection. its possible because they are a part of you – even though you are not a part of them. but how much would you protect their rituals and ceremonies if it was about a discussion about them. how holy are their sacred ceremonies to you?   it already starts with that.

it sounds nice and ethnological truths are probably all welcome here - but for example ayahuasca was never meant for the sick it was meant for the healers – good luck telling that to people around here. 

the more people who want to explore it ethnobotanically the more there will be exploitation. in some sense its good if only shamans learn it there who have the ability to respect the traditions and then create experiences for the average psychonaut.

it can’t be close to the same it originally was used for, because its not the same – people use it to find themselves they are not as deeply rooted in nature as these cultures are. themselves does not include these people. 

i once watched some video where alan watts talked about how they searched for some kind of mushroom in the i think seventies because they heard of a sacred plant ritual. it was not a respectful approach towards the traditions of the tribes who used these plants since generations. its a jackass approach – and that’s what you will mostly find around here. 

there will be some who are respectful and others who would behave like the spanish when they discovered paradise.

And that's exactly what they talk about in the podcast and what the ICEERS has been created for - to attempt to solve the issues that will inevitably come up with the globalization of these medicines.

I was never intending to present this as an easy solution. But at least, we know what the right direction is to restore the balance.

Knowing the value of ceremonial approach, community and ancestral wisdom comes from direct experience. It took me more than 3 months to understand what "dieta" is and that's actually possible to connect with "master plants" for healing and guidance - try explaining the value of "connecting with master plants" to somebody who never had that experience, I had very big resistance to this myself even though I've had many mushroom trips before doing a dieta.

Also, the most important component of healing with Ayahuasca are the medicine songs which shamans learn from dieting different master plants. They are then able to channel these energies of love and harmony through singing to align and harmonize people on physical, mental, energetic and spiritual levels.

So it's not just Ayahuasca, it's the intention of using Ayahuasca for healing and that comes with mastery of plants that you build relationships with over years which all have unique properties to heal different illnesses.

Making people understand the importance of connecting with plants and the power of medicine songs is the difficult part.