Ibn Sina

Hi. I have a disagreement with Osho's teaching.

61 posts in this topic

The me is looking for a correct answer or a path to THIS....

There isnt a real path because there isn't a correct answer because there isn't an actual you that's asking the question... Lol sorry not trying to freak you out..

Liberation occurs when the separate sense of me has fallen away and is recognized to have never existed( that's why it's referred to as death sometimes) it's only an apparent death for No One ...because no one actually ever existed..

Osho is pointing to the truth that nothing arises out of the separate me because it isn't real.... everything real arises out of post Awakening...

I think this is mostly what he was pointing to ?


“Everything is honoured, but nothing matters.” — Eckhart Tolle.

"I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside." -- Rumi

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10 minutes ago, The observer said:

@Ibn Sina

i think you are partially correct and partially not. yes you cannot be enlightened with an agitated mind but if you put yourself in other peoples shoes you realize that the state of agitated mind is relative and some people experience more agitation than serenity due to forcing positive thinking. you experience peace of mind through positive thinking and thats great but from their point of view its extremely difficult to find peace of mind without letting themselves think that way even though they dont have to act that way and they usually dont. if i understand correctly your point is that everyone should only think positively but the reality is that not everyone is capable of that. also notice theres a distinction between thought and action. those people are not bad people we have to understand that thought is completely out of our control and by trying to force control over them we create resistance and therefore suffering. this is very different from acting on the thoughts. again people who experience those thoughts are genuinely good people so who are we to judge them. they need our help and understanding and thats what osho was offering.

Sorry but the psychologists ( Who write papers on- do x y z to feel good / conduct research on buddhism/ happiness) and my life experiences disagree.

But your point is also valid. Different things work for different people. 

It's not about labelling peope as good or bad, but basically seeking the truth.

Well, if people are violent or have bad thoughts because it is out of their control, it's okay, I am not saying they are bad or good people.

I am saying it doesn't help their meditation.

Yes, Osho was famous for not judging people, and that's good. 

All I am saying is such thoughts/actions (and doing nothing about it) do not corresspond to well being in the psychological sense/ buddhist sense, it's opposite to a peaceful mind so has hard time making progress in meditation.

Hate does not go away by hate, but love.

Edited by Ibn Sina

"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
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4 minutes ago, Meta-Man said:

I never mentioned ‘immorality’.

Immorality/Morality is a dualistic concept you are afraid to let go of. It is preventing you from realizing the Truth. 

Throw the Buddha in the dustbin for a second. You need to go back to the drawingboard.

I am saying the same thing that you are saying. 

In higher states there is no duality.

It's the same thing.

For the 11th time I am writing this.


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
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9 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Osho is pointing to the truth that nothing arises out of the separate me because it isn't real.... everything real arises out of post Awakening...

Yes, from the top down , at the highest level, of course this is the truth. But I am talking from the ground level.

Which means, you cannot be immoral, and practice meditation and make progress. 

At the highest level, there is no morality.


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
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Just now, Meta-Man said:

The way to realize non-duality is to destroy dualities. You are stuck.

I agree that  we have to destroy duality. (12th time)

So what are you disagreeing? 


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
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4 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

I am saying it doesn't help their meditation.

paradoxically i believe it does. love is all encompassing and must include negative thoughts too so only if they love them fully will they be able to transcend them.

7 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Hate does not go away by hate, but love.

of course thats what im saying they have to apply love on the negative thoughts for them to go away cause fighting will only create more negativity and suffering for them and us.

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Just now, The observer said:

paradoxically i believe it does. love is all encompassing and must include negative thoughts too so only if they love them fully will they be able to transcend them.

of course thats what im saying they have to apply love on the negative thoughts for them to go away cause fighting will only create more negativity and suffering for them and us.

 

Sure, Then we have nothing to disagree.

That is exactly what I am saying. 

What you are saying all alighns to the concept of Sheel + Samdhi.


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
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1 minute ago, Meta-Man said:

I am saying ‘give up dualities’.

You are saying ‘keep dualities’.

 

I am not. 

How many times should I go on? 

You first need to understand what I am saying. This is like the basics of buddhism, and you are saying I should go to the drawing board smh.

I am saying practice sheel.

I am saying destroy dualities.

Now if you cannot understand this then it is your problem. 

If you understand this, it can lead to spiritual progress and peace.


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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1 hour ago, Meta-Man said:

So the ego is doing good deeds to feel good about itself. 

You should be clear about what you mean by ‘meditation’.

Are you meditating to ‘calm your mind’, feel good for a short while etc, like the kind that has become popular in mainstream culture, or are sitting down in silence, contemplating seriously what you truly are, deeply questioning the nature of Reality?

It is important to know when we are truly meditating.

Ime Until you have a glimpse that you might be "the unconditional" , is comprensible to go ahead into meditation for the ego/mind beneficial purposes, and i think that´s totally allright. Most people start from a place of egoism , not of truth seeking.

When glimpses of truth start to appear, then the drive/motivation to do meditation can start going from somewhere else, but I think its totally common and normal to not approach meditation in a truth-seeking mode, basically because people already assume that they know 100% what reality is and who they are.


A thought is never true

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6 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

What you are saying all alighns to the concept of Sheel + Samdhi.

it does essentially but it also transcends it aswell. sheel is only one way of being it does not acknowledge other ways while samadhi or enlightenment does. the teaching is very simple. accept whatever is the case without force if its negative thoughts accept them if its positive thoughts accept them if its no thouths accept it. simply be who you are love and accept yourself. for you its sheel + samadhi accept that. for others it might be something else accept that too. its all about you cause you are unique you dont have to make your uniqueness universal cause then it will lose its meaning.

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9 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

When glimpses of truth start to appear, then the drive/motivation to do meditation can start going from somewhere else, but I think its totally common and normal to not approach meditation in a truth-seeking mode, basically because people already assume that they know 100% what reality is and who they are

 

I think morality , and positivity, is mainly for calming the mind, as opposed to meditating with psychologically harmful behaviour, from there one can have the mental ground to realize non-daulity.

Of course, everyone starts with duality, but when choosing duality, one should choose the one that makes you calm, and eliminates agitation, from there the realm of positive and negative is removed and one reaches non-duality. That's what I am saying.

So this doesn't mean it is not a truth seeking mode. It is. It is just choosing one duality and slowly moving towards nothingness.

 


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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2 hours ago, Ibn Sina said:

Hi. I have this question, which is like a disagreement to Osho's teaching ( I hope this is allowed :P ) . I was reading the book " God is dead zen is the only living truth" and at one point Osho says that sheel (moral conduct) is not important but only pragya (wisdom) is important.

 If you go inwards the sinner will find the buddha just as much as the saint. And after you have found your enlightenment, the radiation of the enlightenment becomes your character, your sheel. - Osho

 

Heres the key.  If you go inwards.  

 

What is going inwards?  It is becoming completely selfless.  See God created the ego so that form could survive as a form.  To do that it needs to be selfish.  However if you notice honesty and love are facets of selflessness.  

So when you turn inward who is going to be there to sin?  One can be a devil there entire life and still wake up - but to do that they need to stop being a devil long enough to awaken to Truth.

Post awakening its really counterintuitive to allow yourself to become a devil again.  You would literally have to deny God again after you became God directly.  Hard to do but possible as God can turn a blind eye to itself eternally if it wishes

Yet it is more common that they can align their lives with Truth and it will happen naturally.  The ego may flare up every now and then but eventually one becomes so conscious that it just ends up dissolving because it was realized that it never existed.  It was exposed and the game is up.  Peace and happiness are found in Being and Truth - it is found within.  When the ego realizes it has been an illusion it ultimately becomes powerless.


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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23 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Yes, from the top down , at the highest level, of course this is the truth. But I am talking from the ground level.

Which means, you cannot be immoral, and practice meditation and make progress. 

At the highest level, there is no morality.

Within the dream there seems to be all kinds of ways to improve the me's situation.... more meditation more peace, more practice more progress...

What this subtly suggests is that what is here and now is not good enough...

When the resistance to whatever shows up in life gets dropped the suffering ends.

Before Enlightenment chop wood and carry water after Enlightenment chop wood and carry water what has changed is the resistance to what is...


“Everything is honoured, but nothing matters.” — Eckhart Tolle.

"I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside." -- Rumi

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4 minutes ago, The observer said:

it does essentially but it also transcends it aswell. sheel is only one way of being it does not acknowledge other ways while samadhi or enlightenment does. the teaching is very simple. accept whatever is the case without force if its negative thoughts accept them if its positive thoughts accept them if its no thouths accept it. simply be who you are love and accept yourself. for you its sheel + samadhi accept that. for others it might be something else accept that too. its all about you cause you are unique you dont have to make your uniqueness universal cause then it will lose its meaning.

Of course, it's all about transcendence. Sheel is not the goal. Pragya is.


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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1 minute ago, VeganAwake said:

Within the dream there seems to be all kinds of ways to improve the me's situation.... more meditation more peace, more practice more progress...

What this subtly suggests is that what is here and now is not good enough...

When the resistance to whatever shows up in life gets dropped the suffering ends.

Before Enlightenment chop wood and carry water after Enlightenment chop wood and carry water what has changed is the resistance to what is...

I agree 100% . Nothing to disagree here.


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
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6 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Heres the key.  If you go inwards.  

 

What is going inwards?  It is becoming completely selfless.  See God created the ego so that form could survive as a form.  To do that it needs to be selfish.  However if you notice honesty and love are facets of selflessness.  

So when you turn inward who is going to be there to sin?  One can be a devil there entire life and still wake up - but to do that they need to stop being a devil long enough to awaken to Truth.

Post awakening they can align their lives with Truth and it will happen naturally.  The ego may flare up every now and then but eventually one becomes so conscious that it just ends up dissolving because it was realized that it never existed.  It was exposed and the game is up.  Peace and happiness are found in Being and Truth - it is found within.  When the ego realizes it has been an illusion it ultimately becomes powerless.

I agree.

"So when you turn inward who is going to be there to sin?  One can be a devil there entire life and still wake up - but to do that they need to stop being a devil long enough to awaken to Truth."

Yup, that's what I was also saying.


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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14 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Within the dream there seems to be all kinds of ways to improve the me's situation....

There is no me - yes.  It is just an appearance or an idea of a me which is false.  That said - the dream is pure creativity and God in finite form should still practice proper nutrition and physical fitness to keep the form it is in healthy and avoid physical suffering of the form.  Its not ego and its not seeking. It's just love for oneself as God.

Certain things are ego - such as wanting more and more money - more than what you need.  Or taking steroids to achieve some look.  That would be buying into the false ego.


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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@Ibn Sina Meditation is about realizing that you are not your thoughts. You can have negative thoughts during meditation, but the important part is realizing that those thoughts are not you. You do not reject negative thoughts, but rather, you let them pass through and spectate them from your true self.


"God is not a conclusion, it is a sudden revelation. When you see a rose it is not that you go through a logical solipsism, "This is a rose, and roses are beautiful, so this must be beautiful." The moment you see it, the head stops spinning thoughts. On the contrary, your heart starts beating faster. It is something totally different from the idea of truth." -Osho

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10 minutes ago, Osaid said:

@Ibn Sina Meditation is about realizing that you are not your thoughts. You can have negative thoughts during meditation, but the important part is realizing that those thoughts are not you. You do not reject negative thoughts, but rather, you let them pass through and spectate them from your true self.

 

I know that .

And it connects Moral conduct with meditation.

If you are really meditating, then you cannot act out of pure unconscious reaction because your  mind is watching. 

While if you are not in meditation, you can loose your peace of mind and become violent etc which is what happens to people.

So it's connected and one helps the other.

I am just emphasizing both the facets of this equation.

While in Osho's books only one side is more emphasized.

Like right now I am watching my own mind, I see a range of emotions as opposed to if I acted without any mindfulness.

And at the same time my moral discipline can protect me from having a lifestyle where such negative thoughts is encourage in my mind.

which gives the ground for higher spiritual states of no duality.

Edited by Ibn Sina

"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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2 hours ago, Meta-Man said:

In Hitlers own eyes, he was a savior and an angel. 

Really interesting point.

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