Are green people really cognetively superior to blue people?

[Nivsch]

Lets say we have two persons - one is (mainly) blue and one is green.

On average, their values of the both are a result of their family, environment and education, and were given to them with a spoon directly to their mouth.

So, Why that the green one will be superior cognetively? He is not. He has not built by himself any more complex neurological pathways because of his values, he was not sweating more, he just has given its values as a content or as a story.

Yes, in both sides there are people who are more autodidact and may have superiority in cognition because they develop their brain by themselves, but than can happen pretty equally (statistically) with the both colors, so this parameter offsets itself.

[hamedsf]

you can't easily compare and contrast these two things together!

cognitively superior in which terms? mathematics? chemistry? solving problems? social? or finances? which one?

we could even imagine a scenario which a stage blue person can gain upper hand on a stage green person in every day mundane life activities.

but all in all, we could say that stage green person has more open-mindedness than the others below him/her who could break out and think outside the mind/intellectual boxes.

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by hamedsf

[Forestluv]

@Nivsch I wouldn’t use the term “cognitively superior”. I think a better term would be “cognitive development”. 

For example, we wouldn’t say a professor that understands calculus is “cognitively superior” to a 12 y.o. student learning algebra. The professor has a higher level of cognitive development, yet I wouldn’t call him “superior”.

[savior]

I agree. Spiral Dynamics is more of an openness/awareness scale. It should not measurecompare to cognition, nor does it.

Cognition has to do with conveying ideas in an understandable, accurate form.

Spiral Dynamics has to do with identifying and categorizing all cognitive forms as extensions of expanded/limited self.

Edited April 3, 2020 by savior

[Roy]

It's not about cognition, it's about values. Spiral Dynamics is for understanding, anticipating, and then categorizing values.

Green values are superior to Blue values >

Because as one moves up the Spiral the values become more encompassing and compassionate to greater parts of humanity and the world as a whole.

If you've studied history in any capacity you'll notice a trend of things becoming increasingly more Liberal over time.

The Liberals of today are the Conservatives of tomorrow.

The most hardcore Conservatives of today would be considered crazy nutcase hippies by the Conservatives of 1920.

Realize this, embrace it.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

He has not built by himself any more complex neurological pathways because of his values

Actually he has. Green is able to think more perspectivally, independently, relativistically, more compassionately than Blue. The Blue mind in some cases literally cannot compute Green's way of thinking, while Green can compute Blue. Although Green can struggle to understand Blue's inability to compute.

This does NOT make Green superior in any absolute sense, but yes, relatively superior at the cognitive level.

If you just compare a stage Blue thinker to a stage Green thinker, it's like a Toyota Corolla vs a BMW.

Compare someone like Ben Shapiro vs Sam Seder. Totally different caliber of thinking. But that doesn't make Sam Seder always right or superior as a living being. There are much higher levels.

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura but if I grew in a realively green city and family, and cause of this - I'm very green. How does it makes me more neurologically sophisticated than blue?

I didnt developed my brain flexibilty independently more than blue had. I just absorb a story (content) of flexible values, but didnt necessarily developed structural flexibility 

And if I did, how?

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Leo Gura How does it makes me more neurologically sophisticated than blue?

Only baecause the environment i have? But i didnt do anything to make my brain more sophisticated than Blue

Environment is a huge factor.

Yes! Just the mere fact of being born in a developed part of society makes you more developed. If you were born in the Congo or the Amazon rainforest, you would certainly be less developed. Because humans are not merely individual brains. We are a herd species with hive minds. You cannot survive as an individual at all.

So-called Western values do have some advantages. In developed countries people are taught how to think more independently and skeptically. The education systems of each color are very different. A stage Blue Islamic school is not the same as a stage Green Montessori school. The first one indoctrinates, the second one teaches students how to think for themselves. Of course it's not perfect, Green can still have lots of indoctrination, but it's way better than Blue, which basically just enslaves your mind.

A lot of educational development is about infrastructure, which is both physical and intellectual. It takes thousands of years of intellectual infrastructure to produce high quality thinkers. This is not an individual accomplishment. You can't have an Einstein without the entire system that created him.

[Derek White]

I would say they are more “cognitively developed” because they are able to see more perspectives and be more open minded. But that doesn’t mean it’s arising from genetics or biology necessarily. That should be obvious.

A stage blue person can have a higher IQ than a stage green or yellow person. I’m sure Ben Shapiro has a high IQ. So does Jordan Peterson. IQ is something separate but I think it does play a small part.

It has to do with environment mostly but genetics on an individual level can play a part. It’s no secret that many folk like Sadhguru were more aware than your average child but that’s on an individual level. You can clearly see this in immigrants and children of immigrants. Some coming from blue countries change over to orange or green very rapidly, in a sense they have an advantage, being rased in two cultures helps you understand them better. 2nd and third generation immigrants tend to be very green. They would be blue if they had stayed in their countries of origin.

Like Leo said, we have a hive mind. You can see the hive minds (cultures) evolving around the world. You can see cultures in history which were high consciousness then devolved into low  consciousness (parts of middle east, Indian culture, fall of Roman empire)  or cultures which were low consciousness evolve into high consciousness (American culture, Western culture, Chinese, Japan etc). These things keep oscillating.

 

[Hello from Russia]

This one is pretty obvious. I think what more often overlooked is how undeveloped typical green is vs yellow. Cognitively, emotionally and in other aspects. Green is really a pretty lame stage for creating results\making a real difference in people's lifes. I think it's more important to get conscious of limitations of green to go further than to bash on blue.

Talking about blue is like beating a dead horse now, everyone is pretty much aware how limiting it is and there is no real point into talking about it very much. These people will die soon and get replaced by orange\green folks. We only have to make sure to not get influenced by them very much intellectually due to our childhood traumas and prepare some nursing homes so they can die in peace and get some compassion (which they deserve or not deserve).

Edited April 3, 2020 by Hello from Russia

[Cocolove]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Leo Gura but if I grew in a realively green city and family, and cause of this - I'm very green. How does it makes me more neurologically sophisticated than blue?

I didnt developed my brain flexibilty independently more than blue had. I just absorb a story (content) of flexible values, but didnt necessarily developed structural flexibility 

And if I did, how?

 

Ken Wilber talked about exactly this on his youtube channel. In this case, someone could act like they are green, hold green values, but really be blue. They will enact green but be at blue cognitively. 

Also what Leo said. I don't think there's a contradiction.

[Leo Gura]

There are many levels to Green. Many people's Green runs only skin deep, as beliefs and ideology. It's like a Green veneer. It takes a lot of inner work to reach solid Green. You can't reach solid Green merely through adopting liberal beliefs.

Few Democrats are solid Green. They are mostly Orange with a Green veneer. But most people don't know any better. So we get this wolf in sheep's clothing effect -- as seen with the corporate Dems.

Never forget, there are always devils around who will try to convince the world that they are one color when they are actually a few colors lower. This makes understanding Spiral Dynamics a bit tricky. You have to really develop a keen eye.

For example, Trump seems Orange, but he's got a solid Red foundation with a bunch of Orange veneer. And it fools A LOT of smart people, not to mention the dumb ones. So watch out for fakers.

To be at solid Green requires not just beliefs but an opening of the heart. You have to really empathize with other beings around the world. This cannot be faked. It's an honest signal. And yes, good education in a highly developed society can help you to open your heart. Good education is not merely book-smarts.

[electroBeam]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Environment is a huge factor.

Yes! Just the mere fact of being born in a developed part of society makes you more developed. If you were born in the Congo or the Amazon rainforest, you would certainly be less developed. Because humans are not merely individual brains. We are a herd species with hive minds. You cannot survive as an individual at all.

So-called Western values do have some advantages. In developed countries people are taught how to think more independently and skeptically. The education systems of each color are very different. A stage Blue Islamic school is not the same as a stage Green Montessori school. The first one indoctrinates, the second one teaches students how to think for themselves. Of course it's not perfect, Green can still have lots of indoctrination, but it's way better than Blue, which basically just enslaves your mind.

A lot of educational development is about infrastructure, which is both physical and intellectual. It takes thousands of years of intellectual infrastructure to produce high quality thinkers. This is not an individual accomplishment. You can't have an Einstein without the entire system that created him.

fighter pilots and secret service agents are highly intelligent yet are stage blue

[Nivsch]

On 3.4.2020 at 7:27 PM, hamedsf said:

but all in all, we could say that stage green person has more open-mindedness than the others below him/her who could break out and think outside the mind/intellectual boxes.

?

 

On 3.4.2020 at 7:34 PM, Serotoninluv said:

@Nivsch I wouldn’t use the term “cognitively superior”. I think a better term would be “cognitive development”. 

For example, we wouldn’t say a professor that understands calculus is “cognitively superior” to a 12 y.o. student learning algebra. The professor has a higher level of cognitive development, yet I wouldn’t call him “superior”.

Yes developed is more accurate you are right

[Nivsch]

On 3.4.2020 at 8:53 PM, Leo Gura said:

So-called Western values do have some advantages. In developed countries people are taught how to think more independently and skeptically. The education systems of each color are very different. A stage Blue Islamic school is not the same as a stage Green Montessori school. The first one indoctrinates, the second one teaches students how to think for themselves. Of course it's not perfect, Green can still have lots of indoctrination, but it's way better than Blue, which basically just enslaves your mind.

Ok now I understand. its actually imprinting the way of thinking (and neurological patterns) into students minds through education rather than just tell a story.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Nivsch