Annoynymous

Rape and India

131 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Derek White said:

I have never hear of anyone performing suttee or heard of rape as a punishment. Hinduism is not a sexist religion. They literally worship goddesses and the ancient culture is very open about sexuality. Have you read Ramayana and the ancient scriptures like Kamasutra?

It is quite rare these days, but it does happen. Do a google news search and you'll find plenty of examples. Ditto for human sacrifice, which is again rare, but still happens occasionally.

 

2 hours ago, Derek White said:

If Hinduism is so bad then why is India, which is a majority Hindu country, secular and treats women as equals at least on paper? Look at the treatment of women in Bangladesh and Pakistan or any muslim country.

Obviously hundreds of years of Muslim and European rule has left a mark. What other country do you see that has been colonized and has kept it’s unity, culture, and is doing good?

Cut India some slack. It need to do better but it’s doing fine considering it’s history. India doesn’t need moral lessons from westerners.

Hinduism and India in general have many great and attractive qualities, but their treatment of women is not among them. Admittedly, women were better treated in ancient times and most of the misogynistic additions, to for example, the Ramayana, came later, in the middle ages. 

European rule did leave a mark in that Suttee was outlawed and the Thuggees were eliminated. The role of Islam is debatable, hard to tell from such a historical distance, since it has been the dominant religion of the ruling class for centuries. However, it is likely that before Islamic rule, women were treated better than they are now. An interesting snippet is that in South India (where I used to live) and Bali, women went topless before the arrival or European colonisers, which is understandable, given the climate. Christians and Muslims were however scandalised when they saw that and it went out of fashion pretty quickly.

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@Preety_India it’s really cool that you talk about it despite fears. i guess no woman is exactly safe of being harassed, but i realize that my fears of a single harasser who might attack me out of the blue in a country where most male  are more on the equality level, is a completely different situation than being in a severely openly threatening environment on a regular basis. the subtle hidden harassments in the west seem less strong in a sense facing a more severe situation for women in other countries - although if it’s happening the patterns are the same. 

the only thing you can do probably is trying to not frequent certain areas or places until it’s not dangerous to frequent them anymore. i guess the fingerpointing has to be done by foreign men - unfortunately i guess foreign women would not be as effective. but i wanted to give you some support and tell you to stay strong. 

there were some movements agains sexual harassment lately especially in south korea. but also women’s solidarity protests in other countries and world capitals especially on the 14. february, it’s a work in progress, one thing is more and more of society to be aware of these things happening and making it less and less possible, also making these protests not a strictly women thing - what guy would want their girlfriend, wife or daughter to be harassed? saying no to these kinds of attacks is of everybody’s interest, training civil courage through media is probably a good start. maybe doing self actualization ? - i guess the most guys here are on another level. thank you for talking so openly!

Edited by remember

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1 hour ago, Dumuzzi said:

European rule did leave a mark in that Suttee was outlawed and the Thuggees were eliminated.

... and the country was looted, women were raped, people were enslaved, cultural genocide, erosion of social fabric, govt. induced famines, massacres etc. God, Indians must miss the good old days under the Brits. People who fought the Brits must be so stupid.

1 hour ago, Dumuzzi said:

and most of the misogynistic additions, to for example, the Ramayana, came later, in the middle ages. 

Oh yes! The Ramayana! Having a woman as a main character and a husband who loves her so much that he risks his life to get her is soo misogynistic! It should learn from the bible and quran about how to treat women.

Indians should just accept western values because all the good comes from their only. 


“Many talk like philosophers yet live like fools.” — Proverb

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@Derek White I get the impression that you have not studied the history of the British Raj very deeply or read the Ramayana. Maybe I'm wrong, but then I don't know how you could have come to these conclusions.

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9 hours ago, Preety_India said:

 

I had decided to open a thread about rape in India but there are lot of Indian guys on the forum so I decided not to out of fear of being objected and demonized. 

The demonization of women in India is intense almost to the point of Dehumanization. 

Any woman who wants to speak up is easily called and branded a feminist and put away. 

I cannot even talk about it in public because if I did I will face serious consequences like physical violence. 

Here is a link that describes the situation that happened to an Indian woman who decided to fight against rape by starting a campaign called "Shame the rapist" and the moment she did it, her car was vandalized and she received death threats. It's that serious. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN0LA2FA20150206

 

The fact that I'm responding to this thread is in itself a courageous move. Most Indian girls wouldn't talk about it out of shame and fear instilled in them by the patriarchal society. 

You will also observe a remarkable phenomenon online. You see a lot of Indian men but you see very few Indian women. That's because Indian men are notorious at chasing off Indian women out of the online space. Most Indian women are scared to upload personal details about their location as a result. 

I never tell people online the city I live in. Because there is the ever present threat of being stalking by Indian men online. 

Indian women are just told to disappear by their family in order to have some basic protection because the law doesn't protect women enough. So if I complained about a stalker to the police, they will tell me that it's my fault that I allowed it or just tell me to suck it up. 

I'm kinda glad you brought it up. 

The most common question that most Indian men ask me regularly is "where do you live?" "which city do you come from?" and I always remember to avoid that question and never answer it. For security reasons. 

But like I said awareness is not a solution because Indian women are well aware of the problem. And so are men. 

It's the law that needs to be strict towards bad behavior of men. There needs to be proper punishment and enforcement of laws and rules and make sure that victims of assault, rape and harassment get justice. 

 

 

I dont think Indian men in this forum are that low. Rest of things i agree 100%.


I will be waiting here, For your silence to break, For your soul to shake,              For your love to wake! Rumi

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10 minutes ago, Dumuzzi said:

@Derek White I get the impression that you have not studied the history of the British Raj very deeply or read the Ramayana. Maybe I'm wrong, but then I don't know how you could have come to these conclusions.

For that i have a question which Ramayana did u study?  Ramayana is not like Quran or bible. It is different different in the sense there are many variety of Ramayana from spiritual ramayana to a Ramayana where Sita is Rama's sister. From my limited knowledge sati was practiced only by certain community which where ruling class that to during Persian mughal era and in South of India there where no Sati. But South had its own issues during that period. I come from Nair community (caste) where women practiced polyamory that to till early 1950's. Women had the power and had property's right, childrens where iherited from mother. Nair men found this matrilineal system disadvantage and used victorian laws to control women and bind them in monogamy.


I will be waiting here, For your silence to break, For your soul to shake,              For your love to wake! Rumi

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3 hours ago, Dumuzzi said:

 Christians and Muslims were however scandalised when they saw that and it went out of fashion pretty quickly.

Khajurao temples was hidden till 1830. 


I will be waiting here, For your silence to break, For your soul to shake,              For your love to wake! Rumi

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1 hour ago, Harikrishnan said:

Nair men found this matrilineal system disadvantage and used victorian laws to control women and bind them in monogamy.

Right, I was about to point this out. A lot of misogyny in India is a result of left over Muslim and British Victorian prudishness. There are instances where Hindu scriptures have been used to justify oppression in economically backward regions, I’m not denying that.

It’s hard to use Hindu scriptures to justify misogyny. Firstly, no one in their right mind would take them literally and fundamentally. Then there are goddesses everywhere, there is Kali dancing naked on Shiva’s body while she holds heads of men, Kamasutra, one half of Shiva is female and so on. And even if  earlier Hindu’s had misogynistic practices, today’s Hindu’s don’t have to practice them. Hinduism is read a lot more abstractly, it is known as “sanatana dharma” which means “eternal law”, so stuff like sati and even casteism are not considered to be the core of Hinduism and can be changed according to my understanding. It’s hard to even call Hinduism a religion, it’s more like a culture or as some like to call it “a way of life” It’s hard to distinguish Indian culture from Hinduism, sometimes one can’t tell if a certain practice comes from a local legend, culture, or scripture. Many Muslims and Sikhs have a caste in India even though Islam and Sikhism don’t have casteism. 

2 hours ago, Dumuzzi said:

@Derek White I get the impression that you have not studied the history of the British Raj very deeply or read the Ramayana. Maybe I'm wrong, but then I don't know how you could have come to these conclusions.

My knowledge of India comes for growing up there and going to school there. I haven’t read Ramayana but I know the story. Never have I seen it used as a tool for sexism or as justification for sati. Most of sexism I have seen comes from prudishness, bad Bollywood movies, and outdated traditional practices that are more cultural than religious. A lot of it comes from the girl’s family having to pay dowry, it’s probably the number one reason.


“Many talk like philosophers yet live like fools.” — Proverb

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@Preety_India  Get a gun and learn how to use it.

Also read the bible and come back here telling us how good christianity is with women.

 

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8 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Christianity might have many dogmas but in reality it is a religion that offers greatest respect, freedom and love to women. It doesn't degrade them.

WOW! Oh my goodness! Pretty what are you doing? Stop please!

Go read the bible first. 

 

 

 

Arc

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@Arcangelo hehehe if I used a gun, I'd be in jail. India is not that simple. 

I know what you're saying about Christianity and the Bible. But this is also true that compared to Hindu culture the Christian culture treats women better. 

I have no idea how Hindu culture evolved to treat women badly but ancient Hinduism was about protecting women. Probably misogynistic men changed the scripture and the culture to suit their needs. 

 

 


INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

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@Harikrishnan yea it's cool. I thought the guys here would really downarrow me. 

Apart from a few disparaging comments {hinting that I could be a slut to deserve the harassment} everything went pretty fine. But then again this is online. Offline situations are always much worse. 

Also this is a spirituality website so many the good Indian guys hang out here hahaha. But in reality in India, only a handful of Indian men have respectful attitude towards women. Most everyday men are very perverted and disrespectful to the extreme. You would need to be a woman to experience that. 

 


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7 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Currently in India, women compose 78 of the 542 seats in the lower house of parliament = 14.4% women. This is a record number, reflective of changing attitudes - yet still below global averages.

Yes, that's what I was saying but people called it toxic nationalism. Also keep in mind that currently India is under an extreme religious right wing government which I consider to be similar to Nazis (explains people's fear of nationalism). The situation is very dangerous for Muslims and minorities and this government as little regard for women. I think Indians are doing relatively good (both at home and abroad) considering their history, geography, and neighbors. They could and have to do a lot better. India is not even 100 years old as a country. Give India at least 200 years to compensate for the 200 years of British rule and 1000 some years of Muslim rule and invasions.

7 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

 And easy way to see someone's level is how they react to progressive positions.

I do advocate for women's rights. When it comes to progressive positions it depends which ones. I like Bernie but there are the extremes ones which I don't agree with. For example, black separatism was a movement in the 70s which might be considered progressive at the time but I would not have advocated for it. I don't support progressive who make racist jokes about whites which even I feel uncomfortable with. I think we need to respect ideas we disagree with and I feel bad when progressives don't respect conservative ideas. They don't realize that if they grew up religious in rural country side, or saw immigrants take their jobs, they would have different views. 

I don't agree with how feminists and progressive go about spreading their message. I think they need to do some introspection because their mistakes are why someone like Trump gets elected. Many of them put ordinary people in a box called stupid, which is not the best way to get people on your side. Use love not hate. The Joe Rogan episode with Darl Davis, the author of "Klan-destine Relationships: A Black Man's Odyssey in the Ku Klux Klan", shows that to change people you need to talk them properly. I know this thread is about sexism but the same dynamics apply to racism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGTQ0Wj6yIg

(Oh the Sadhguru video was a bit of a joke, he titled it "Stop Talking About Women's Rights" and released it on Women's day. it seems he is attracting a specific audience.)

Edited by Derek White
Sadhguru's video

“Many talk like philosophers yet live like fools.” — Proverb

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1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

@Arcangelo hehehe if I used a gun, I'd be in jail. India is not that simple. 

I know what you're saying about Christianity and the Bible. But this is also true that compared to Hindu culture the Christian culture treats women better. 

I have no idea how Hindu culture evolved to treat women badly but ancient Hinduism was about protecting women. Probably misogynistic men changed the scripture and the culture to suit their needs. 

 

 

electro shocker ? 

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@Preety_India

 

6C75C810-C7EB-4F02-A45A-39539F4F5A31.jpeg

it gives the offender an electronic shock - usually sometimes you still need some kind of government arm license, depending on the country. you can’t use it against verbal attacks though, unfortunately.

Edited by remember

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@remember omg no... I will never do that to anyone

That's why law enforcement should exist. 

Nobody should have to defend themselves with such violent means. 

Even if someone threatened my life, I wouldn't use any thing on them. I care about human life. I have never been violent in my life. I just can't do that 

Not trying to moralize here. But I don't believe in any kind of violence. 

People should be penalized or jailed for misdemeanor. The same thing can be dealt with without violence. 

Peace

 

 

✌️


INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

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@Preety_India in some sense it was a joke. but well yes no one should need to use sth like that. it’s not about running around and shocking every man who talks to you. it’s about the serious cases, it’s self defence in case of people jumping at you with a knife or wanting to rape you. the person will not die from sth like that but gives you the time to run away. it’s not about the threat it’s about severe situations.

the moment the law can enforce anything it’s already to late. and what do you think would police use to get someone off off you? not doing anything is waiting for others to do sth.

although there are also self defence courses where you can learn how to hit someone if they attack you - then you can still decide in the situation if you want or want not to use force. in some sense you would even do them some good, to prevent them from doing harm to someone else - in the sense of karma this would be caring.

(not believing in any kind of violence is a good one ✌️)

Edited by remember

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@remember  I think they can use physical force. Isn't that what the police is trained for? 

Sorry I can't use physical force or join military or karate to fight off an attacker. It's not in my nature. I know a lot of women. 

That's why we need law enforcement. We need armies. We need a jail cell with a lock and key. 

What you're trying to imply is good for cavemen times when people used sheer force to defend themselves. 

But we live in civil societies with law and order. 

A guy earlier in the thread told me that I should Empower myself 

There is this theory circulating in India especially by actors like Akshay Kumar that women should take up defence classes, learn karate and stuff to defend themselves and fight off a rapist!! 

Isn't it easy to just put all the responsibilities on the woman's shoulder to defend herself. And what are men gonna do, sit and watch, while a woman fights for her life? 

I'm not in favor of such a system where a woman is left to defend herself 

Can you use the same logic for a 10 year old girl. Can she become Hulk Hogan and fight against a strong muscular 35 year old man? 

It's absolutely ridiculous to even suggest such a thing. 

You should understand that a lot of the rapes that happen are gangrapes where there are usually a bunch of 5 men assaulting a woman. It's impossible for her to defend herself. 

You guys undermine the power of a strong government and a strong law enforcement. 

In a highly evolved society, people are disciplined, well mannered, graceful and they cannot be expected to aggressively defend themselves with physical violence or force. They should not have to do it. This is not a jungle where you are to live on your own. It's called society for a reason. 

Sucks when people suggest that women should go around fighting every attacker and spend her every day fighting. What a load of crap 

 


INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

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@Preety_India

Do you think just enforcing a strict law would work?

Especially when the law enforcment agencies are rotten and corrupt to their core.

The rich and the powerful always get away with the law.

It needs a much more nuanced solution.

Have you read about the Unnao case.

It's a perfect case study about what's wrong with the system.

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