This Forum (what it actually is)

[luckieluuke]

I do really think this topic is important enough to take some action upon. Updating the forum guidelines or whatever. Even thou it might not be picked up by newcomers it would plant a seed and shorten the time wasted drastically...and result in a higher quality of the forum overall.
Unfortunately @Leo Gura is gone for the moment and not sure if mods can do something. But it seems I am part of the minority here (?)

[Shadowraix]

On 3/10/2020 at 2:30 PM, Lelouch Lamperouge said:

Mods are overly dogmatic. Free thought is repressed. Whatever doesn’t fit into traditional nondual worldview is banned, repressed. All talks about love, yet tyranny prevails.

You wouldn't want true free thought. That let's in tons of nasty stuff contradictory for survival and growth. 

You call it tyranny, others call it sensible regulation. Depends which side of the fence you are on and who it benefits. 

But the fact of the matter is, Leo has a goal with this forum and its up to him and the mods to call out what they think is misinformation. It's not perfect, but trying to look out for us is a very loving act I'd say. Love does not mean you get a free pass to do whatever you want. 

Imagine if we just let all the conspiracy theorist rush in here to post their ideas. Oof a nightmare but I'm sure they'd claim tyranny too if they were suppressed. 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Shadowraix

[Inliytened1]

On 3/10/2020 at 1:30 PM, Lelouch Lamperouge said:

Mods are overly dogmatic. Free thought is repressed. Whatever doesn’t fit into traditional nondual worldview is banned, repressed. All talks about love, yet tyranny prevails.

There is a specific teaching here - and that is waking up to what you are.  Becoming conscious of the ultimate Truth.   The teachings are meant to point one in that direction and when bullshitters come onto the forum that are not awake and post misinformation it distracts others from this Truth.   Ofcourse, you don't need this forum to wake up.   Its an additional tool.  You can awaken by just putting in the work and listening to the enlightenment videos.  When the time is right awakening will happen.  And the effort being put forth here will all make sense.

[Milos Uzelac]

I will just add a part that I think is a useful pointer for this real concern from Chris Hedges's Statement of Faith that refers to Scripture but I in fact think it is meant for any text:

 ''The Holy Spirit opens us up to God’s truth.  It empowers us with God’s love when we despair.  Yet it is beyond our control.  We cannot invoke it.  It comes only when we surrender ourselves and open our hearts in contrition to God.  It is only through the Holy Spirit that the scripture, written by human beings, can be rightly interpreted and the Word of God can be correctly heard and understood''.  - Chris Hedges, Statement of Faith

[Roy]

This forum is a guide, a way to nudge people in a certain direction.

Not a scientific manual.

If anyone makes that mistake then they aren't equipped to do the work in the first place, which isn't the forums fault, it's theirs.

[TheAvatarState]

5 hours ago, Roy said:

This forum is a guide, a way to nudge people in a certain direction.

Not a scientific manual.

If anyone makes that mistake then they aren't equipped to do the work in the first place, which isn't the forums fault, it's theirs.

I see where you're coming from. However, I think we should do more to steer people away from mentally masturbating about enlightenment and nonduality on the forum. It's a real trap. What you're saying is like, "well people know to not get addicted to opiates right? If they get addicted it's THEIR fault." We know that's not entirely true. Show more compassion! We need to take responsibility... this is a resource for newbies. If people wanna bullshit here on the forum, that's totally fine. But more could be done to make it abundantly clear that conceptualizing post-rational states of consciousness won't get you ANYWHERE. Not even a little bit. Talking to newbies about nonduality will never get them closer to that realization of their true nature, precisely because language is relative to an individual's experience they've already had. It's impossible to communicate a higher state of consciousness. That wasn't made clear to me until I had this epiphany a couple years after the fact.

I've reflected on it more, and I don't think we should shut down this subforum. It serves a purpose in ways that may seem counter-intuitive at first. But I think it's a little too free-range as it stands right now. We encourage newbies to participate in discussions way outside their current consciousness... and that's honestly unconscionable if we really value their growth. Perhaps the resources need to be updated... made more concise and on-the-nose about the dangers and traps of such work. That's all I'm advocating for.

[Roy]

1 hour ago, TheAvatarState said:

opiates

I think that's a little bit of a stretch comparison lol.

1 hour ago, TheAvatarState said:

That's all I'm advocating for.

I agree with you. Perhaps it's in the works for the future to make things a little more concise. Leo does seem to be cracking down a bit more on bullshit lately.

[TheAvatarState]

@Roy opiates was an extreme example, but it was not structurally different than the potential trap of this forum. They both create a pattern of behavior that's delusional and harmful, just to varrying degrees. 

[SOUL]

Spirituality, 'enlightenment', awakening and consciousness are very subjective experiences so how they are perceived and interpreted can be quite varied and diverse. It would be an unfortunate circumstance if this forum became a place where the infinite variety of expressions were stifled so that they were limited to select interpretations.

I understand this forum is the property of nobody...wait I mean the no self called Leo and he has a vision for it. There is a difference between people who are coming here to purposefully disrupt or mislead for whatever reason they may have and people who may have a differing experience of awakening so share another perception and interpretation.

Let's hope this place doesn't become one where only the interpretations and teachings that are 'authorized' by the 'supreme leader' as 'truth' are allowed to be spoken and every one that doesn't fit in are called 'false' with the people who are espousing them 'devils' are shut down and silenced. That would be joyless and unloving situation.

 

[Lento]

2 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Spirituality, 'enlightenment', awakening and consciousness are very subjective experiences so how they are perceived and interpreted can be quite varied and diverse. It would be an unfortunate circumstance if this forum became a place where the infinite variety of expressions were stifled so that they were limited to select interpretations.

I understand this forum is the property of nobody...wait I mean the no self called Leo and he has a vision for it. There is a difference between people who are coming here to purposefully disrupt or mislead for whatever reason they may have and people who may have a differing experience of awakening so share another perception and interpretation.

Let's hope this place doesn't become one where only the interpretations and teachings that are 'authorized' by the 'supreme leader' as 'truth' are allowed to be spoken and every one that doesn't fit in are called 'false' with the people who are espousing them 'devils' are shut down and silenced. That would be joyless and unloving situation.

I love this! I'll share it in my thread if that's okay because it fits very well there.

[TheAvatarState]

21 hours ago, SOUL said:

It would be an unfortunate circumstance if this forum became a place where the infinite variety of expressions were stifled so that they were limited to select interpretations

1. You will not find infinite variety of expression here. It's already quite limited. 

2. ANY interpretation is delusion, that's my point. I'm not saying that one true selection of words is the way, I'm saying it's all bullshit. The no-interpretation, or the riddle/koan gets you closer to the realization. Everything you find here about consciousness, enlightenment, and nonduality is in fact misleading. It may or may not be coming from a deluded place, but the act of poor translation through language to another, less experienced reader is the delusion. That being said, I have no problem with people bullshitting, but I feel like we need to let newbies know that they must experience it first before they mentally masturbate about it. We kinda do that already, but as it stands now I wouldn't recommend this forum to a seeker. If I'm not mistaken, that's the purpose of the forum. 

[SOUL]

4 hours ago, TheAvatarState said:

1. You will not find infinite variety of expression here. It's already quite limited. 

Actually, no two people experience, perceive, interpret and believe identically so each one of differs in expression. It's as varied as dna is, in fact, it's even more varied than dna because identical twins share the same exact dna but they won't share experience, perception, interpretation, belief or expression.

Very many including Leo teach about about the infinite potential but when it comes to expression it's quite limited? I'm now going to have to ask what do you mean by 'quite limited' and what is your definition of limited because ours must differ quite a bit. Wait, don't tell me because the answer itself will prove my assertion, it's all varied.

I'm of of the few here who does speak about the psychological priming that goes on in people's minds with regard to spirituality and mystical experience. How all of this expression is influenced in our imagination through the books we read, the people who listen to and everything we are exposed to that corrals us into the similar ideas.

Even with all that priming there is no two exact expressions, people would have to try really hard to mold their understanding to mimic another's and it's virtually impossible to accomplish such a thing. It's too complex to even be fully aware of own understanding let along transform our understanding to be identical to another's.

4 hours ago, TheAvatarState said:

2. ANY interpretation is delusion, that's my point. I'm not saying that one true selection of words is the way, I'm saying it's all bullshit.

So if any interpretation is delusion and it's all bullshit then how can anyone say to another 'this is false', call something misleading, that someone has 'incomplete; understanding or awakening and then *lock* thus silencing their expression? How can one teach truth let alone 'absolute truth' if it's all delusion and bullshit?

Wouldn't this also be the blind leading the blind? Can we dilute the delusion with more delusion? Does the bullshit become less bullshit because it is anointed acceptable bullshit and the other become even more bullshittier if it is not? How do we teach or even speak any interpretation and expression in the context of it's all delusion and bullshit?

If the mods want to intervene in obvious trolling and abusiveness then that makes sense. If they want to contribute in threads that have obvious traps and pitfalls which can lead to people experiencing real harm so they fill in the gaps stuff that fills out the teaching in hopes it doesn't lead people that way then this also makes sense.

Although, if this forum becomes a place where only sanctioned by the authority delusion and bullshit is allowed to be taught calling it 'truth' and 'god' with everything and everybody else being silenced as 'false' and 'devils' it will become more and more like what it's critics have suggested it is....you know the word, I don't want to justify it by using it.

I have encountered very many communities that have fallen into this behavior through my decades of exploration and it is one of the reasons why I choose to be compassionate about differences in discussion. I also emphasize a key benefit of any teaching is in it's leading to the cessation of self suffering, to liberation and not as much it's 'truthiness'.

I don't know what the purpose of the forum is but in that context I hope whatever 'purpose' it serves in the minds of those who create and contribute to the discourse it also leads to the cessation of self suffering. Otherwise it's just deluded bullshit.....so you say.

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by SOUL

[Inliytened1]

There isn't a lot of variation that i have found to the facets of awakening.   Because awakening is not conceptual it is actual.  It is the collapse all duality or a collapse of self and other.  It is a non-dual state of consciousness.  Not preaching, but a non-dual state is a mystical state in which you become pure Consciousness itself.  That which you always were but were separated by the imaginary self.  So In becoming it - you also instantaneously become conscious of various facets of what you are.   This is because Consciousness is becoming conscious of itself - waking up to itself so to speak.   And those realizations were provided in Leo's video on the facets of awakening.  And during my awakenings i have directly validated all facets.   And it feels like waking up from a dream.    It's so freaking radical and hard to fathom that i can understand why there is so much criticism or demonization of Leo here.  Because this stuff is soooo damn radical.

We are talking about literally becoming God and becoming aware that you are God.  And becoming conscious of the nature of how you work.   There is nothing bigger and sometimes i myself cannot believe what i became conscious of.    Its something that i feel whether you are meditating or taking psychedelics that it will only happen when you are already at a certain baseline of consciousness and not before.  

So with all of that being said when posts saying God is not the Absolute or Nothing Matters are spotted by guys like Leo what do you expect - these types of posts are either false or incomplete.   But it can't be known until after awakening.  Leo is working on streamlining his teachings and these types of messages in fact will only distract from that.

Additionally, when users also come on and mock Leo in subtle ways that is also a huge distraction as well as being false.  Again due to how radical this stuff is,  i totally get it.   But at the same time that is why radical open mindedness is required.

 

[TheAvatarState]

8 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Very many including Leo teach about about the infinite potential but when it comes to expression it's quite limited? I'm now going to have to ask what do you mean by 'quite limited' and what is your definition of limited because ours must differ quite a bit. Wait, don't tell me because the answer itself will prove my assertion, it's all varied.

Let me ask you this: can I answer this question an infinite number of ways?

31 minutes ago, SOUL said:

So if any interpretation is delusion and it's all bullshit then how can anyone say to another 'this is false', call something misleading, that someone has 'incomplete; understanding or awakening and then *lock* thus silencing their expression? How can one teach truth let alone 'absolute truth' if it's all delusion and bullshit?

We are not interpreting the meaning of Shakespeare's plays. Your arguments hold up when concerning relative, ambiguous works like poetry, but the beauty (and downfall) of this sub-Forum is that we try to grapple with the Absolute. What THAT is cannot be communicated in any way. What language CAN do is serve as a pointer, and pointers have relative levels of accuracy in pointing to an object. "Hate is the metaphysical root of reality, so we should further Nazi ideas" would be removed from the forum because it's a pointer in the opposite direction of Truth. Truth is metaphorically the object towards which we want to point. Of course Truth isn't an object. 

A pointer is relative, limited, and has no substance. Notice that an expression of language does not contain meaning within itself, rather, it produces images and ideas within you that you then relate to create webs of meaning. These images are based on your own body of experience. So, You cannot communicate a novel experience or idea. You cannot communicate a higher level of consciousness. So if you're not already awake, all pointers towards Truth, no matter how "accurate," will not get you closer to It. This is because IT is something outside your body of experience... It is a novel experience way beyond words. 

In this way, all interpretations of enlightenment, nonduality, and the Absolute are by definition misleading. *An interpretation through language brings up images in your mind, all of which are finite, 2-D or 3-D. ANYTHING you can say or think about it is NOT THAT.* Truth cannot be taught. Leo's videos on these subjects can be helpful, but only because I awakened already. Ultimately it's just more story that separates you from truth. 

In essence, a pointer only becomes visible when you have the necessary body of experience. And because each word reflects on your own unique experience, any one interpretation will have a slightly different meaning to each person that reads it, but the general direction is there. Language is such a crude tool. Infinity of experience, not of expression through language. 

[TheAvatarState]

17 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

There isn't a lot of variation that i have found to the facets of awakening.   Because awakening is not conceptual it is actual.  It is the collapse all duality or a collapse of self and other.  It is a non-dual state of consciousness.  Not preaching, but a non-dual state is a mystical state in which you become pure Consciousness itself.  That which you always were but were separated by the imaginary self.  So In becoming it - you also instantaneously become conscious of various facets of what you are.   This is because Consciousness is becoming conscious of itself - waking up to itself so to speak.   And those realizations were provided in Leo's video on the facets of awakening.  And during my awakenings i have directly validated all facets.   And it feels like waking up from a dream.    It's so freaking radical and hard to fathom that i can understand why there is so much criticism or demonization of Leo here.  Because this stuff is soooo damn radical.

Thanks for this great example. 

@SOUL Notice that while this is a potent explanation of the Absolute, and it can't be said much clearer than this, even still it is utterly meaningless and confusing to you or to anyone who hasn't experienced it. Any explanation can only reflect on your own direct experience, so, we can deduce that this explanation cannot bring any seeker closer to It. If you're awake: "cool story bro." If you're a genuine seeker: "huh that sounds interesting what the fuck?" 

You're trying to use duality to... Cut duality? Can a knife cut itself? You're seeped in the very thing you're trying to rid yourself of. Leo understands this deeply, and yet leaves open lines of debate and inquiry into the Absolute, and he seriously answers them. My question is... Why?

Let me give an example. "What is nonduality?"

My answer: "I can tell you what it is not. It is not anything that you can imagine, write, speak, watch, smell, feel, or think about."

"Ok... So what is it?"

"....silence*"

"I'm serious, what is it?" 

"...Now you see our little predicament." 

 

 

Even to say, "nonduality means that everything is one and all distinctions are imaginary." Is already painting a dualistic picture and not getting you any closer to it. The number "one" will be interpreted as an integer, distinct from zero or two. It will most likely be visualized as a sphere. Are you getting the picture? Everything that is said about nonduality on this forum daily is a fruitless fucking game. Now, go back and re-read this thread. Thank you for your time and understanding. ?

[Inliytened1]

30 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

Thanks for this great example. 

@SOUL Notice that while this is a potent explanation of the Absolute, and it can't be said much clearer than this, even still it is utterly meaningless and confusing to you or to anyone who hasn't experienced it. Any explanation can only reflect on your own direct experience, so, we can deduce that this explanation cannot bring any seeker closer to It. If you're awake: "cool story bro." If you're a genuine seeker: "huh that sounds interesting what the fuck?" 

You're trying to use duality to... Cut duality? Can a knife cut itself? You're seeped in the very thing you're trying to rid yourself of. Leo understands this deeply, and yet leaves open lines of debate and inquiry into the Absolute, and he seriously answers them. My question is... Why?

Let me give an example. "What is nonduality?"

My answer: "I can tell you what it is not. It is not anything that you can imagine, write, speak, watch, smell, feel, or think about."

"Ok... So what is it?"

"....silence*"

"I'm serious, what is it?" 

"...Now you see our little predicament." 

 

 

Even to say, "nonduality means that everything is one and all distinctions are imaginary." Is already painting a dualistic picture and not getting you any closer to it. The number "one" will be interpreted as an integer, distinct from zero or two. It will most likely be visualized as a sphere. Are you getting the picture? Everything that is said about nonduality on this forum daily is a fruitless fucking game. Now, go back and re-read this thread. Thank you for your time and understanding. ?

Excellent points.  You really hit it on the head.  From my POV he seriously answers them and then advises one to use the practices and tools available to discover for themselves.   A conceptual framework was good in helping me -  ie the videos.  So the forum is kind of like a supplement to the teachings in the videos.  Why answer them at all? Well why make the videos at all?  For a base framework.  That said i totally get what your saying.  We are in a bind because ultimately the Absolute cannot be spoken so thus it cannot be taught.

[TheAvatarState]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

For a base framework. 

Are you ready to take this leap? You may not want to hear this. 

His videos did not provide a base framework. The forum did not provide a base framework. Really contemplate what you mean by "base framework." It's a concept, or web of concepts. That you created. The words Leo and others said to you were interpreted by you, and you created a complex series of images and stories to make sense of it. And you think your experience is built on that? Do you think anything in your life is enriched by having a base framework? If that's the base framework, it's time to throw it out the fucking window. 

Any conceptual framework is delusion, nothing fundamental or "base" about it. There's nothing more true about your base framework compared to a stage Blue religious fundamentalist's framework. I mean, I'm having trouble swallowing that pill...

Leo's work is nothing more than a crude pointer that points toward that which is beyond words or labels or images or symbols. Beyond framework. Groundless ground, mate. 

[Inliytened1]

23 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

Are you ready to take this leap? You may not want to hear this. 

His videos did not provide a base framework. The forum did not provide a base framework. Really contemplate what you mean by "base framework." It's a concept, or web of concepts. That you created. The words Leo and others said to you were interpreted by you, and you created a complex series of images and stories to make sense of it. And you think your experience is built on that? Do you think anything in your life is enriched by having a base framework? If that's the base framework, it's time to throw it out the fucking window. 

Any conceptual framework is delusion, nothing fundamental or "base" about it. There's nothing more true about your base framework compared to a stage Blue religious fundamentalist's framework. I mean, I'm having trouble swallowing that pill...

Leo's work is nothing more than a crude pointer that points toward that which is beyond words or labels or images or symbols. Beyond framework. Groundless ground, mate. 

So i guess we should just toss out all the videos and the books on the booklist?

Understanding the difference between actuality and concept didn't help you with becoming actuality?  

That's all i meant by framework.  I am not suggesting such framework is outside or greater than the Absolute, more metaphysically fundamental, or that it replaces the Absolute.  But you can use a subset of the Absolute to help along the path.  The key is that the subset won't GET you to the Absolute, as we both know.

 

 

[SOUL]

@Inliytened1 @TheAvatarState So both of you validate your own experience, of course you do otherwise you wouldn't view it as valid. You trust your experience is true, that it is what it is, you believe it because that's what the word means.

Although, are you suggesting it is 'valid' for everyone? That if they don't experience and perceive as you do it's invalid? That it's 'false'?

[tedens]

@TheAvatarState I think you should get Leo's answer to your question.