Raphael

Why is health care for all a human right?

28 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, SOUL said:

It's in the US constitution..... allowing a corporation, group or individual to deny health care to someone because of belief, race, gender, nation of origin, creed or even profit violates their rights as a citizen. So to ensure the general welfare it is the government's duty and imperative to establish and protect the citizen's rights and to promote the general welfare of all it's citizens.... that includes but isn't limited to health care, clean water, safe food, safe housing, education, a safe working environment, living wage, fair market practices, preserving a clean environment, a stable currency and others all of which contributes to their general welfare.

Healthcare is a responsibility, our responsibility, not someone else's responsibility.  Government's duty is to protect you from me, me from you, and us from them.   insuring domestic Tranquility, such as civil rights within the nation, and promoting (encourage) the general welfare is protecting the food and drugs so they are safe for consumption and protect the people as you have mentioned.  However, government's responsibilities regarding healthcare and living wages are only for protecting the people from bad medicine and poor work environments, not implementation of means and methods.  Are you advocating that government give out toothbrushes, soap, and shampoo as a right?  To secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity is to help protect the people's rights for liberty, unjust laws, and freedom from tyrannical governments.

IMO traditional healthcare in the U.S. is narrow minded and basically drug dealing.  I have had serious illnesses and injuries in this life and I have found more help in books, church, the web, people, prayer, and meditation thanks to Leo and this website.  For over 20 years I have watched my parents take more prescribed pills in volume than I have for breakfast.  Is this living or are they walking around in a pickled body.  I thank this Government for being there to protect me, not care for me, this is on the part of the collective and I am grateful to be a part of this collective.

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21 hours ago, Bodigger said:

Healthcare for all is a force onto the people, and does not empower people to care for one another.  Which is more conscious?  I will say the latter.

the problem is that people are not conscious enough - they think they are but it’s a form of denial to not see what then is really going on. if the concept of awareness would work for everybody everybody would be aware. therefore the latter is a delusion. 

and even if there is health care for all, there is still a lot to what people could get empowered working towards. you guys just don’t understand that most countries who have some kind of public health care system would take this with a handkiss. some of these countries had to fight that they could keep public health care. and you get this on the silver tablet.

Edited by remember

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I mean, when you look at any means of production as a system, you can think of it like this?

Should I have to plant my own food to survive?
Should I have to build my own electronics?
Should I have to pay for a new car if I get into a crash, or can we each get insurance, and the majority of people that don't get in accidents?
Should I have to go and farm plants and grind them up to produce generic drugs?
Should I have to build my own road? My own house?

Can't I just structure my life in a way where I can do some work to provide some type of universal accumulated value, and others who specialize in other things can sell a portion of their accumulated value for a portion of the value I accumulate?
Oooh, we can all use money for things!
That's amazing. And look, if we just have hundreds of thousands of people each producing different sets of things, we can get the cost to be low!
 

So that applies to healthcare as well. Look, Bernie is trying to set a standard and a precedent for the United States that as a resident, you have healthcare as a human right. If you come to the US, this will extend to you. This can continue to trickle down to capitalist societies that haven't streamlined this government payment model for healthcare. It's a service, but we're entitled to it at a fair cost. We pay into it, through our citizenship or through being a civil person who has a Visa or applied for US citizenship or is vacationing here. You have the right to use public transportation in Japan, at a cost. You could call it your birthright or rights of citizenship, and maybe it will make more sense to you that yes, we are entitled to some basic rights. We have rights to education, civil rights, we've abolished federal segregation of businesses and schools, etc.

So, we have the right to have a system that's optimal for the impoverished. We may have to make some concessions. Initially, hospitals in certain areas may be full. Some people may abuse the use of prescription drugs, and certain regulations may have to be tightened. We may be short staffed, in need of more doctors, and hybrid roles may arise. We could see alternate tracks to become a "Doctor Lite" with 6-8 years instead. A lot can happen.

 

I mean, at the current rate we're going, more people in Africa will have healthcare than US within the next decade or so.

Edited by Vladz0r

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21 hours ago, Bodigger said:

Healthcare for all is a force onto the people, and does not empower people to care for one another.  

Healthcare for all is not "forced onto" anyone. Everyone wants healthcare. Nobody would not say "no thanks, I don't want healthcare. Don't force healthcare onto me. I'd rather suffer in pain and die". Nobody thinks like that. Ask Canadians what they think about having "healthcare for all forced upon them". They would look at you oddly. It's like asking an American "How do you like having your fire department forced onto you?". . . Huh??. . . Everybody wants healthcare and deserves healthcare.

Last year, I had an UTI and kidney stone that was extremely painful and would have been life threatening without healthcare. I needed health care to survive, not "people to care for one another". I needed a urologist, a surgeon, an anesthesiologist and a nurse. Are these healthcare providers the "people" you are referring to? Because my friends, family, coworkers etc. couldn't do jack squat. They gave me emotional support, yet I would have been screwed without healthcare. I am fortunate to have access to healthcare. Yet, what about the tens of millions of people that don't have healthcare in a similar situation? They're screwed. The people around them will not be able to to provide healthcare to them. As well, the millions of homeless people don't even have a social network for emotional support. Do we just deny them healtcare and let them suffer, while billionaires are making hundreds of billions of dollars profiting in healthcare? Should millions of people suffer in illness so a healthcare executive can make his billions and buy his third yacht that he doesn't even use, yet looks great sitting in a harbor?

Healthcare for all will improve health for everyone. It will improve the health of the communities we live in. 

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Lool "healthcare is a force onto the people"
This guy must think he'll be paying 102% in taxes so that poor minorities can get their opioids and medical marijuana or something.

Look, we live in a individualistic society. Capitalism has destroyed the idea of a neighborhood. Our school system has been stripped of its power to deliver discipline and have high standards for social studies and civil understanding. Our people have become cold and distant. And you're saying that by providing healthcare, one of the few instances where you can actually get help from practitioners who actually care enough to stay in that rough of a field, you're forcing it onto the people?

I mean, what's the solution? People go to hospitals because of falls, injury, and pain.
Did you ever think about how healthcare actually functions for people with disabilities? My aunt is disabled and her son is able to take care of her full-time thanks to the healthcare system. She's on medicare (government). My grandpop is disabled and soon they're going to be improving our electrical appliances for ease of use, through federal aid, and he may see some form of home healthcare in the future. My sister serves as a nurse in a local public hospital and takes care of a lot of minority people. If anything, a robust healthcare makes caring for our own people in our communities a viable win-win scenario. Currently it's a win for the people at the top, and a win for those at the middle who can afford healthcare. There are public clinics where people can go to get essential things like bloodwork, vaccines, TB testing, and even dental work done in my area.

I had a fall and the private healthcare I had active tried to charge me to take me from my home to a hospital, and get transferred to another hospital. They had me doped out on drugs, mishandling me in the process, and causing another injury and the hospital transfer. They tried to charge me $80,000 during this few days of "healthcare" because my insurance was shit and they were trying to avoid paying the hospitals. I had to beg to 3rd party organizations to cover my cost, and they're still coming after me for thousands that are trying to be negotiated.

So no, having healthcare is not oppression. Not in the slightest. Private insurance companies are oppression.

Edited by Vladz0r

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@Raphael It's a good question, but in my opinion the reason it is a right is very simple. 2 reasons: 1: if healthcare isn't a right, do we have a right to life at all, to water, to food, to education, to air? 2: Everyone feels like healthcare isn't a right until they themselves have a horrific near death experience or know someone who has, when you are in that moment, which I have had the misfortune of being in, wondering whether you are going to survive through the next 10 mins, you will know why you and everyone else needs free and easily accessible healthcare and emergency services. 

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Because in America it's not considered a right. Same goes with education and housing. These are basic rights in a democracy and yet they are not respected in America. 

It's time they realize that the government is actually for the people. Everyone deserves a free system and a fair system equal to all regardless of their income or taxes paid or their productivity. It's nazi psychology to be divisive and allow for social and financial disparity. 

 

America has a long way to go to resolve economic disparity there.. 

So if we truly consider a group of people to be equal in terms of all privileges then by that law or principle, everyone automatically deserves the same level of health care and this has to be constitutional not a handout. 

 

Thats why free Healthcare is a basic right 

But don't assume that just because it becomes free it will be great and awesome and fair. For example take the NHS in the UK. Since it's free it does a lot of prioritizing sometimes in an unfair manner. So they cut off a lot of people who were actually deserving of disability payments and told them to go back on the payroll. Thus a lot of people who should have received benefits didn't get them since the NHS can't handle the load. This is what happens with free care. Everyone scrambles for it causing the system to become ultra strict with prioritizing and thus ignoring a large chunk of people.. 

Even recently NHS is trying to prioritize critical care for those affected by the Coronavirus. 

This means that you are lucky if you make it to the white list and unlucky if you make it to the blacklist. It's more like World War 2 rationing system. Early bird gets the bread, rest suffer. 

So really not sure if a socialist system is totally operable because the flexibility is low. But if the flexibility is high, then nothing beats the benefits of a socialist system 

 

 

Edited by Preety_India

INFJ-T,ptsd,BPD, autism, anger issues

Cleared out ignore list today. 

..

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5 hours ago, Bodigger said:

Government's duty is to protect you from me, me from you, and us from them.

Well, when industries, the health insurance and pharmaceutical,  are responsible for about 100k deaths a year and more than 500k bankruptcies, many had insurance, due to their influence on the market then yes, the gvmnt needs to step in and prevent this predatory and abusive behavior.

We cannot.... I repeat cannot rely on the capitalist corporations or the nonsensical concept of the 'invisible hand of the market' to do the right thing, they only seek their self interest profits at every turn.

So letting the Medicare system that doesn't seek profits, operates at almost a tenth of the cost, will be able to negotiate lower costs and can ensure to the health care providers that they will get paid to be the single payer system is the only sensible thing to do.

Every other modern country and a few developing ones have proven that it is possible and works. It's not a 'take over' of the whole industry either if that's going to be your rebuttal. Most of the providers are private, it's just a single payer system funded by the money we pay anyway.

Why doesn't a 'public option' or 'if you want it' work? Because it still puts the health insurance industry at the middle of pricing the system and they will push the sickest off on medicare after they milked them dry of funds.

I don't agree with 'banning' private insurance either, though. Rich people want special treatment and privileges so private insurance could work between the more basic clinic providers and 'medspa' upscale providers or cover expedited/electives but the payment Medicare would pay would be the same with the ins making up the difference.

Capitalism creates a system of false scarcity and limited access to drive up their profits but health care should not be treated the same as other commodities....that runs against the general welfare of it's citizens the Government is constitutionally bound to promote and protect.

 

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