crab12

People who have experienced ego death - why do you keep your money?

98 posts in this topic

Because if you want to play the game of survival you need money? 

Awakening doesn't mean you stop living, the opposite in fact. It's when you truly start living. 

Before enlightenment chop wood and carry water; After enlightenment chop wood and carry water.

People like to think when they awaken they will become 'above human' 'superhuman' or some other absolute BS. In fact, a true awakening is when you become more human than ever before. You realize that while you live as The Self, you still live as a unique expression of The Self as a human. And, as that human, you will have a personality, interests, likes, family, friends, a job probably etc and will be completely unique to anyone else. 

Awakening allows you to realize what you truly are is Natural Pure Awareness, The Absolute, God, whatever you want to call it and yes you abide as this. However, you are awareness experiencing itself as a unique human, so if you deny this you are literally denying life. If you try to become an emotionless robot who has no interests and no personality you are simply rejecting Duality. (In reality Duality and Non-Duality are literally the same thing but that's for another post) 

So, this whole money BS is basically people projecting that Enlightened people either are or see themselves as superior, which isn't the case, well some teachers do like to see themselves as superior. In reality, NOBODY is ever enlightened because a person can't become enlightened, and those that say they are, may well be, but are not fully Self-Realized. In reality, EVERYONE is merely The Absolute, however, 99.9% of people have no idea of this and are completely oblivious to it. You are not superior because you're awake, in fact, a true awakening is very humbling, as you realize literally everyone and everything is your very self, how could you be superior? 

Therefore, yes you are also still having a human experience, and unless you don't want to live in the society you will need money to function. 

It's also such a backward question, wouldn't you rather conscious, good people became millionaires/ billionaires by actually creating true value and weren't exploiting people, instead of the many unconscious wealthy individuals we have. The problem is a lot of awakened beings often ditch society and I don't blame them, however, it means those in power are far from awake or conscious and look what we have created. 

Imagine conscious people in politics, business, in normal jobs, sports, etc imagine how much better things would be. 

So, to answer your question after that rant, you could simply say, Awakening doesn't make me/someone special, in fact it shows how all humans are merely God/ The Absolute/ The Self, and it doesn't mean I'm no longer (Insert Name) or no longer a Human. I still have a personality and have what makes me human. However, it means I abide and operate from a place of truth and love, and from this place, I would be much more conscious in my actions and wouldn't con people out of money. Wouldn't it be better if we had, good and loving people who wanted to push humanity forward in charge of big businesses and in important positions instead of the corrupt, greedy and power-hungry people we see today?'

Also, please don't demonize money on your journey, all you will do is create a shadow issue around money that will prevent you from making money and create blockages in your life. Money is simply an energy, just because those that have the most are usually quite corrupt doesn't mean money itself is evil. Money is a tool that can be used for the greatest reasons or for the worst reasons. Be conscious earning and spending money, and always be grateful for what you have, when you buy something, and when you earn money, this helps create a welcoming environment where you can become wealthy. (you'll still have to work for it, I'm not saying you can simply magic up billions) 

Sorry for the long post, but this is a common issue and one that affected me for a while, I thought I couldn't be spiritual and run a business, it's complete BS! 


'One is always in the absolute state, knowingly or unknowingly for that is all there is.' Francis Lucille. 

'Peace and Happiness are inherent in Consciousness.' Rupert Spira 

“Your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world.” Ramana Maharshi

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Even if they did would you even know about it? Would they advertise the fact? 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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7 hours ago, crab12 said:

people who have experienced ego death, [...] why do you not give your money away to the needy or to some greater purpose? 

To be able to afford experiencing another ego death B|

 

If you gave away all your money you would, in that way, help other people and then starve to death. But if you use that money to further develop yourself, you will be able to add a lot more value in the future. 

But if one keeps money which one clearly doesn't need, then I guess that's because enlightenment hasn't been fully integrated and embodied yet. 

On the argument of everything is perfect and it doesn't matter what you do: That also means that it doesn't matter if you help others, live selfishly, or commit suicide. That might indicate that enlightened people should act totally randomly, but there is a guiding principle: If your awakening is total, than you are also aware of Love. And Love chooses to help others rather than to live selfishly or commit suicide. As I understand it, it's a matter of how deep your awakening and embodiment is and how well you understand the paradox.

As long as you eat meat and drive a car that costs more than $4 000 your embodiment is a joke.

Edited by GreenWoods

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1 hour ago, GreenWoods said:

But if one keeps money which one clearly doesn't need, then I guess that's because enlightenment hasn't been fully integrated and embodied yet.

Yup, that's exactly what my intuition was telling me and where I wanted to lead this conversation.

1 hour ago, GreenWoods said:

but there is a guiding principle: If your awakening is total, than you are also aware of Love. And Love chooses to help others rather than to live selfishly or commit suicide.

Very nicely put, I also had love in mind when starting this thread. Since love means that you choose to take another as a part of you, which also means that you truly see their best interests as your own. Kinda like a mother does things for her child, not because she wants something back from the child, but because she loves her child and genuinely wants what's best for the child without seeing this as a self-sacrifice or a means to extract value back from the child later on.

Only that you would see everything in this light, including your own needs and your own body.

Edited by crab12

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@LfcCharlie4 That is solid advice. I hate it too when someone acts superior, especially with the spiral dynamics model.

2 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Also, please don't demonize money on your journey

Oh yeah I recognize this, I have done this. Especially asking people for pay in return of my service or making a business profit feels like its "bad" for whatever silly reason. It's very common, rich people are generally hated because of this, just on this fact alone that they made a significant amount of money. It's assumed they stole the money, while they are overlooking the fact that the most profitable business is WIN-WIN, meaning you create value, not just take it from others.

Edited by crab12

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It's hard to create without money.

Maybe Osho saw beauty in having 92 Rolls Royce cars. The notion that he did that has surely left its mark.


I am myself, heaven and hell.

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@crab12 Yeah, the SD thing is common around here lol. 

And yep I was the same when I was a hardcore seeker, I almost felt bad earning money from business etc, when in reality money is just an energy, and you can earn it consciously in a way that provides value for you and the customer. And, yes many businesses do exactly what you said, unfortunately too many don't but, in the long term (50+ years) it'll be the businesses that evolve to focusing on providing value and holding good principles that actually prevail. 

Profit/ Rich people aren't evil at all, I mean some are but it's not because they have money that they're bad people.

There's also amazing rich people and great businesses that make a profit by providing value, that's the kind of business that is actually fulfilling as well. I mean there's plenty of depressed and unhappy rich people because they simply never gave up chasing profit in either an unethical business or one they weren't at all passionate about. So, if you are going to create a business, create one that truly helps people, and that truly provides a form of value to their lives! Or, if you are an employee, ideally work for a company that is helping people, not like a PayDay loan company or something that aims to exploit it's customers. 


'One is always in the absolute state, knowingly or unknowingly for that is all there is.' Francis Lucille. 

'Peace and Happiness are inherent in Consciousness.' Rupert Spira 

“Your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world.” Ramana Maharshi

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@LfcCharlie4

13 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Because if you want to play the game of survival you need money? 

"Survival" of the physical body or of a selfish ego?

 

12 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

However, you are awareness experiencing itself as a unique human, so if you deny this you are literally denying life

And if you act in a way which favours this human more than another human, then you deny Oneness.

 

12 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

. If you try to become an emotionless robot who has no interests and no personality you are simply rejecting Duality. 

Does altruism equal "emotionless robot"?

 

12 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

)So, this whole money BS is basically people projecting that Enlightened people either are or see themselves as superior, which isn't the case, 

perhaps the exact opposite is the case.

If someone doesn't own a car because he rather donates that money because other people can't even afford enough food, then he sees himself as superior?

If you buy yourself nice luxus goods then that basically says "this body is superior to other bodies"

 

13 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

, it means I abide and operate from a place of truth and love,

The question is how well a body can translate that.

 

13 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

, I thought I couldn't be spiritual and run a business, it's complete BS! 

Of course you can be spiritual and run a business, the question is what you will do with the profit the business generates.

 

@mandyjw

12 hours ago, mandyjw said:

Even if they did would you even know about it? Would they advertise the fact? 

You don't see the money they donate, but you see the money they don't donate (in the form of expensive cars, etc.)

 

@crab12

10 hours ago, crab12 said:

. Kinda like a mother does things for her child, not because she wants something back from the child, but because she loves her child and genuinely wants what's best for the child without seeing this as a self-sacrifice or a means to extract value back from the child later on.

Giving without expecting something in return is a good start but in most cases it's still not true Self-Love. For example that mother expanded her identiy to include her child, so she is still serving the self and not necessarily the Self (serving the Self would mean to act in such a way that it benefits as much parts of the Self as possible. So you don't favour one self/part over another). Her love is conditional. The condition is "my" child.  Parents buy their children expensive cars while children in other places starve (children who don't happen to be labeled "my" child by those rich people). Devilry?

 

I don't say being perfectly selfless is to give away all your money but to give away all the money which you don't need to create more value for others.

But being totally selfless and totally embodying Self-Love is pretty much impossible. God can't do that through a human form. The question is not whether you embody Self-Love or not, but how close you are to embodying it.

And I don't say to try to embody it as much as possible. I think it is fine to stay a little selfish and live somewhat comfortably. We don't need to be perfect. But just keep in mind that this means that we don't embody perfect Self-Love.

 

10 hours ago, crab12 said:

. It's assumed they stole the money, while they are overlooking the fact that the most profitable business is WIN-WIN, meaning you create value, not just take it from others.

That would be nice. Of course win-win deals can be very profitable too, but the most profits are made by exploiting and manipulating as much as possible, and living in stage orange times, that's what happens.

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@purerogue ,@wavydude

18 hours ago, purerogue said:

Depends what ego death you are talking about ,so called "Enlightenment" ego death does not mean ego death in literal sense, you as you are not ego any more, but body is still body , so it still does what it does. 

 

17 hours ago, wavydude said:

From my understanding enlightement has nothing do with the person ( your character ), it's realization that you are not the character. That said it doesn't change the fact that character still have to eat, sleep, have desires etc.

The body has access to this higher 'knowledge'. It is God's vehicle. The body can do what it wants, but it has poor embodiment unless it alignes its behaviour with its insights/knowing. 

 

@fridjonk

18 hours ago, fridjonk said:

. And the thing is, while giving and helping people might seem like the "right thing" to do; it's already perfect as is. You judge it from your human perspective. This creation is perfect.

Everything is perfect and it doesn't matter what you do also means that it doesn't matter if you help others, live selfishly, or commit suicide. That might indicate that enlightened people should act totally randomly, but there is a guiding principle: If your awakening is total, than you are also aware of Love. And Love chooses to help others rather than to live selfishly or commit suicide.

 

@Nahm

17 hours ago, Nahm said:

@crab12 You’re conflating. The absolute “perspective” can’t be deduced from the relative perspective. It’s important to note the mixing for the sake of clarity...noting the flip of the reference to “you” in the questions. It flips from “you all that is” to “you are a person” in your perspective, rather than “in the world”. The ego isn’t something ‘found in brains’, it’s the universe. It is like a riddle answered by there being no riddle.

Yes, there is no personal you, but that doesn't mean that the body can't decide how much in alignment with Truth it wants to live

 

@Lento

17 hours ago, Lento said:

 

  1. Because it doesn't matter what you do with the money.

Why?

 

@Serotoninluv

16 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

The squirrels in my yard collect and hoard nuts. These squirrels are egoless. Why don't they give all their nuts to the squirrels in my neighbor's yard?

Because they have a sense of self and are not conscious of Oneness, so they only care about their survival.

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18 hours ago, wavydude said:

From my understanding enlightement has nothing do with the person ( your character ), it's realization that you are not the character. That said it doesn't change the fact that character still have to eat, sleep, have desires etc.

+1


Love yourself into the person you want to become ❤

If you can see it in your mind, you will hold it in your hand.

Life is not a spectator sport. Wake up! -  HL 

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?
2
2 hours ago, GreenWoods said:
 
2 hours ago, GreenWoods said:

Everything is perfect and it doesn't matter what you do also means that it doesn't matter if you help others, live selfishly, or commit suicide. That might indicate that enlightened people should act totally randomly, but there is a guiding principle: If your awakening is total, than you are also aware of Love. And Love chooses to help others rather than to live selfishly or commit suicide.

 

The beauty of awakening is there are no guiding principles. ;) You can do whatever you want. Some of the most enlightened people choose to sit out in bliss and peace, that's their choice. But that's because they aren't evolved enough in the Integral stage department to realize they're the ones also suffering out there in the world. So after a certain point in development, when you've sat in bliss long enough, one might want to go out there and help others evolve their consciousness primarily.

But denying to help others is also a form of love. It's the love of not helping, love of selfishness. The homeless guy on the street is also homeless for the love of being homeless. He created that circumstance as the creator of his reality. God wants to experience every possibility, he loves being homeless. It's the ego that makes it look "bad" and that which creates the suffering. 

Edited by fridjonk

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Wow I've never seen such a messed up post - did not intend for that and it doesn't seem to work editing it either. 9_9

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@GreenWoods Yeah you can't embody The Absolute perfectly or you'd literally have no experience of a Human, just Infinite Awareness (which is absolutely what we are) bit that alone, with no body, human experience etc. Unless you plan on dropping the body, you will have to play the game of Survival, of course it can be done more consciously Post-Awakening, I thought I made that quite clear in my post. 

I'll go through each point numerically from your first point. 

1) Survival isn't merely a survival of the body, have you watched Leo's videos? That is beyond reductionist. Survival means your relationships, human psyche, personality and on on and on and on. It encompasses far more than just the body. Just because one has a desire for financial abundance does not necessarily mean they are 'Selfish', of course many Businessmen/women are, but that's another story. You can be an unselfish millionaire, just because you create wealth for yourself doesn't instantly mean Selfish, it should also be emphasized one person cannot save humanity by themselves in terms of altruism. Of course, we should donate to good causes, but just look at the Bill Gates foundation, throwing money at problems isn't the solution. These issues run way deeper and are far more systemic and require complex and nuanced solutions. 

2) You can never perfectly express oneness, that is a ridiculous idea. Otherwise, you'd never eat as your prioritizing your needs over someone else's. I'm not even sure what you're suggesting wth this comment, but it is impossible to perfectly embody oneness, I thought that was obvious? You are of course going to have to favour yourself slightly in situations, otherwise you would give up all your possessions to those less fortunate and go and live on the streets, that's not very practical is it? This is literally the kind of survival I'm talking about, to survive means you will cause issues elsewhere, it's about doing the best we can. A full awakening actually realizes the humanity of oneself, a lot of early awakenings subtly reject duality, I did for a long time. To me this is the easy way out and allows for spiritual bypassing in so many areas of life, and actually prevents shadow work and integration which can be tough at times. So, yes, sometimes you will make decisions that benefits you/ closest to you- If you buy a house it means someone else who was interested in it can't have it, if you eat food, it means someone else can't eat it.

3) Not once did I say altruism = emotionless robot. What I said is that those who don't embody their humanity can become like a robot, some spiritual circles actually say having no feelings and thoughts 24/7 is the highest state, it's complete bullshit and literally the definition of Psychopathy to have a lack/ no emotions lol. Being Altruistic tends to involve duality funnily enough (even though as I said Duality= Non-Duality but for purpose of this I will separate the 2) as you are helping 'others' who are yourself but you get my point. 

4) Never heard of spiritual ego then I see? Someone who gives away their possessions for the reason of being able to say, I gave away my possessions I'm so spiritual is as much ego as the Rapper boasting about how much money they make, it's all trying to act superior. Of course if one wishes to give away all possessions that' VERY different and that is just what they wish to do, however, it doesn't make one 'more spiritual' to do so. 

No, if one buys themselves luxury goods because they enjoy them and they are useful, why shouldn't they be allowed to? To me, this just seems like you have ideas of how Awakened beings must behave, but it just isn't the case, if an enlightened being wants a nice house does this suddenly mean they aren't awake? 

Again, I go back to that's basically saying if you eat that's saying this body is superior to others. Also, someone who doesn't buy nice things just because they're spiritual could also be operating from a Spiritual Ego standpoint as I said. 

And, sorry to break it to you a lot of 'Enlightened People' (don't actually exist, but at early stages of awakening they are often referred to) there is often a superiority complex of 'I'm enlightened, you're not' which can lead to issues. Look at the issues of Mooji and Bentino Massano to see this first hand. 

5) It is an ever-deepening process, but while you are alive you can never embody it 100% it's near impossible as we have both already discussed. However, love can be deepened in many different ways and not just through Philanthropy/ Donations. For example, any billionaire can give away a few million, but can they stop work for a week and spend good quality time with their Kids and Grankids, for them that would be a deeper example of embodying love. And, yes an awakening to love is a key part of a true awakening which many don't have. 

Love will then express itself naturally in one's life as we embody this, but that doesn't necessarily mean we give up all our possessions and spend all of our days feeding the poor, it can be expressed in a number of ways. Always doing the best we can in any situation and always deepening our love, this never ends. Awakening is only the beginning of life. 

6) As I have just mentioned, a Body/Mind can only do it's best in any situation and love is an ever-deepening process, we can't be perfect but we can always deepen love further, it literally has no end. 

7) Here I guess you're suggesting all profits should be donated/ spent in an altruistic manner. However, I feel differently. I believe, if one creates a profitable business that is built on helping people and providing value, why shouldn't one enjoy the fruits of this in terms of material benefit. Of course, I am not saying to NEVER be philanthropic or donate, but I'm just saying you don't have to give away 100% of the profits to be 'Spiritual.' That is a complete fallacy in my eyes. 

In terms of my plans, yes I own my own businesses and yes I wish to create complete financial freedom for myself (sorry) and no I don't believe this makes me less spiritual or suddenly less awake lol. I will be very generous with my money of course and have plans to help my family very much so financially speaking, as well as eventually raise children and a family in a happy, healthy environment. 

Of course, I will also donate to charities and great causes, and may eventually even look to personally help causes I believe strongly in, or who knows to start my own. But, I will not deny money sorry. The Buddha actually has some good teachings on prosperity for 'Laymen' and says those who aren't monks should actually go out and earn as much as they can! Of course he also advocated being generous with this money, and also being sensible in terms of saving and investing. Maybe the Buddha knew that money is simply energy hey ;) 

I just want to make it clear, I believe embodying love and kindness and altruism to the greatest of our abilities is a huge key on our journeys, and being generous with money is also essential (counter-intuitively this creates more abundance in one's life) and receiving for the sake of sharing is something I live my life by, without sharing what would life be? Whenever something happens, we want to share it as much as possible. Just because one creates abundance does not been they are instantly 'Selfish' in fact it could be the very opposite, that you get there by helping people, how is that in any way selfish? Philanthropy isn't the only way to show love, but is, of course, an incredible way. 

I just don't agree that you can't be both wealthy and 'spiritual' I have tried to answer your questions in as much detail as possible, but if you have any more please do ask and I'd be happy to answer :) 

Also, I would be really careful to not create money issues that end up in your shadow by conflating selfishness and greed with Money, this will actually prevent you truly understanding the energy of money and abundance and lead to more issues further down the line. 

 

I have just read all your other responses also, and yes I agree with The Self itself is the Guiding principle post-awakening and integration, and this pretty much means you live from a place of love and truth, although nobody is perfect. However, it doesn't mean you have to give away all of the money that you don't need always, it means you live a life full of giving and helping 'others' when in reality you are only ever helping, talking or seeing yourself. Therefore, knowing everyone to be your brother and sister how could you then act in any other way? Why would you want to hurt yourself? 

Also, in terms of giving away money, I agree hoarding beyond a protective amount is pointless. But, you could also invest money in a conscious way to help businesses/ things you believe in grow and in return create even more value for the world. While I agree that philanthropy is important, I feel you're looking at things in quite a reductionist manner in terms of how we can express love and The Self, there is an infinite amount of ways we can embody infinite love. 

In regards to your stage orange comment YES! That is the issue, I am literally saying to create a business FIRST that is built on helping people, not a stage orange Profit only business, these are the sorts of businesses that will also outlive Stage Orange, that's my point and are actually benefiting humanity!

 


'One is always in the absolute state, knowingly or unknowingly for that is all there is.' Francis Lucille. 

'Peace and Happiness are inherent in Consciousness.' Rupert Spira 

“Your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world.” Ramana Maharshi

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31 minutes ago, fridjonk said:

The beauty of awakening is there are no guiding principles. ;) You can do whatever you want.

There are no guiding principles and it doesn't matter what you do. But you have to do something. Be it meditating, helping others, buying 10 cars, eating or killing yourself. But how do you decide what to do? Either your actions will be 100% random or you artifically create guiding principles. So the question is what kind of guiding principles you create. Is your artifically created guiding principle "maximising happiness and pleasure for this body/character/mind" which is ego-based or "maximising happiness and pleasure of other people" which is based on awakening insights like Self-Love and Oneness and therefore I would call that embodied enlightenment.

If you are enlightened you can live a life that embodies enlightenment or one that doesn't embody it. If you live a life that doesn't embody enlightenment then that seems to me like a contradiction to your awakening insights. Of course you can live a life with that discrepancy, nothing wrong with that. I just want to contrast embodied enlightenment from not embodied enlightenment.

53 minutes ago, fridjonk said:

.But denying to help others is also a form of love. 

Yes, it is a form of love, but a very constricted one. It is likely very close to self-love and very far away from Self-Love. =no embodied enlightenment.

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a few resources that helped -

https://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/treat_everyone_and_everything_as_they_truly_are_224

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nondualityamerica.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/nonduality-teachers-and-money/amp/

 

@GreenWoods  also regarding your last post, why not do both maximise your own happiness and so called “others” who are literally your very own self’s happiness? I don’t see why it has to be one or the other. In fact, sharing and loving and helping others often leads to greater levels of happiness and abundance, so in fact doing both is actually beneficial. 
 

I don’t see an issue with someone wanting to live a comfortable life and help others simultaneously. You can never perfectly embody enlightenment 100%, if you look at modern teachers such as Rupert Spira, Adyashanti, Francis Lucille, all of these earn money be deservedly so. Are they not embodying their awakening as a result? 
 

an embodied awakening doesn’t have to mean you go feed the poor, you could work at Starbucks and live an embodied Self-Realized life :) 
 

Also, do you have a problem with teachers earning money? 


'One is always in the absolute state, knowingly or unknowingly for that is all there is.' Francis Lucille. 

'Peace and Happiness are inherent in Consciousness.' Rupert Spira 

“Your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world.” Ramana Maharshi

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@Keyhole Who is to decide what someone 'needs' though, why can't a teacher enjoy nice holidays and things though? Don't they deserve a nice house and car? 

I see your points though and it shouldn't be taken to extremes, either way, however, post-awakening one can still enjoy luxuries in life, we don't have to live in poverty for example. 

After all, they are literally guiding people towards absolute peace and happiness, isn't that better than some Oil Company CEO taking your money? 


'One is always in the absolute state, knowingly or unknowingly for that is all there is.' Francis Lucille. 

'Peace and Happiness are inherent in Consciousness.' Rupert Spira 

“Your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world.” Ramana Maharshi

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@LfcCharlie4 First of all, thanks for taking so much time to answer to my post :)

My responses to your post are in cursive

58 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

 

1) Survival isn't merely a survival of the body, have you watched Leo's videos?

Yes I watched them. With survival of the physical body I meant those aspects of survival which are necessary to keep the physical body alive. With survival of a selfish ego I meant those aspects of survival which don't threaten the physical body. Like for example the belief that christianity is the one true religion. If that belief is shattered, that part of me who was a christian and identified with christianity dies, but the physical body (and thus it's survival) is not directly affected.

That is beyond reductionist. Survival means your relationships, human psyche, personality and on on and on and on. It encompasses far more than just the body. Just because one has a desire for financial abundance does not necessarily mean they are 'Selfish',

whether they are selfish depends on what they want to do with that financial abundance

of course many Businessmen/women are, but that's another story. You can be an unselfish millionaire

Can you?

, just because you create wealth for yourself doesn't instantly mean Selfish, it should also be emphasized one person cannot save humanity by themselves in terms of altruism. Of course, we should donate to good causes, but just look at the Bill Gates foundation, throwing money at problems isn't the solution. These issues run way deeper and are far more systemic and require complex and nuanced solutions. 

I used donations just as an easy example. Solving a problem and adding value is more effective (though these things might require donations)

 

58 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

2) You can never perfectly express oneness, that is a ridiculous idea. Otherwise, you'd never eat as your prioritizing your needs over someone else's.

If you don't eat (in order to give that food to someone else) and then starve to death, then you are not perfectly expressing oneness. How much value can you give when you are dead. So, some apparently selfish acts are actually selfless from the bigger picture.

I'm not even sure what you're suggesting wth this comment, but it is impossible to perfectly embody oneness, I thought that was obvious? You are of course going to have to favour yourself slightly in situations, otherwise you would give up all your possessions to those less fortunate and go and live on the streets, that's not very practical is it? This is literally the kind of survival I'm talking about, to survive means you will cause issues elsewhere, it's about doing the best we can.

I agree

A full awakening actually realizes the humanity of oneself, a lot of early awakenings subtly reject duality, I did for a long time. To me this is the easy way out and allows for spiritual bypassing in so many areas of life, and actually prevents shadow work and integration which can be tough at times. So, yes, sometimes you will make decisions that benefits you/ closest to you- If you buy a house it means someone else who was interested in it can't have it, if you eat food, it means someone else can't eat it.

 

58 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

3) Not once did I say altruism = emotionless robot.

True, my mistake. 

What I said is that those who don't embody their humanity can become like a robot, some spiritual circles actually say having no feelings and thoughts 24/7 is the highest state, it's complete bullshit and literally the definition of Psychopathy to have a lack/ no emotions lol.

I agree

Being Altruistic tends to involve duality funnily enough (even though as I said Duality= Non-Duality but for purpose of this I will separate the 2) as you are helping 'others' who are yourself but you get my point. 

 

58 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

4) Never heard of spiritual ego then I see? Someone who gives away their possessions for the reason of being able to say, I gave away my possessions I'm so spiritual is as much ego as the Rapper boasting about how much money they make, it's all trying to act superior.

Sure. But it's still better to help others even if it's for selfish reasons than not to help at all.

Of course if one wishes to give away all possessions that' VERY different and that is just what they wish to do, however, it doesn't make one 'more spiritual' to do so. 

That depends on how you define "spiritual" Does spiritual only mean that you are conscious of your true nature or does it mean that you also act in alignment with that realisation

 

58 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

No, if one buys themselves luxury goods because they enjoy them and they are useful, why shouldn't they be allowed to?

It's of course allowed but is it in alignment with one's spiritual insights/knowing?

To me, this just seems like you have ideas of how Awakened beings must behave, but it just isn't the case, if an enlightened being wants a nice house does this suddenly mean they aren't awake? 

They are awake but don't embody it

Again, I go back to that's basically saying if you eat that's saying this body is superior to others. Also, someone who doesn't buy nice things just because they're spiritual could also be operating from a Spiritual Ego standpoint as I said. 

And, sorry to break it to you a lot of 'Enlightened People' (don't actually exist, but at early stages of awakening they are often referred to) there is often a superiority complex of 'I'm enlightened, you're not' which can lead to issues. Look at the issues of Mooji and Bentino Massano to see this first hand. 

yes I know, that's kinda funny

5) It is an ever-deepening process, but while you are alive you can never embody it 100% it's near impossible as we have both already discussed. However, love can be deepened in many different ways and not just through Philanthropy/ Donations. For example, any billionaire can give away a few million, but can they stop work for a week and spend good quality time with their Kids and Grankids, for them that would be a deeper example of embodying love

It might be better for them (and their kids) to spend time with their kids rather than to work and then donate that money but from the larger perspective, more people are helped if they work and not spend time with their children (given that work doesn't harm someone). I'm not saying they have to. 

. And, yes an awakening to love is a key part of a true awakening which many don't have. 

Love will then express itself naturally in one's life as we embody this, but that doesn't necessarily mean we give up all our possessions and spend all of our days feeding the poor

That depends whether you are talking about Love or love.

, it can be expressed in a number of ways. Always doing the best we can in any situation and always deepening our love, this never ends. Awakening is only the beginning of life. 

 

58 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

6) As I have just mentioned, a Body/Mind can only do it's best in any situation and love is an ever-deepening process, we can't be perfect but we can always deepen love further, it literally has no end.

yes

 

7) Here I guess you're suggesting all profits should be donated/ spent in an altruistic manner.

Or used in a different way to provide value

However, I feel differently. I believe, if one creates a profitable business that is built on helping people and providing value, why shouldn't one enjoy the fruits of this in terms of material benefit.

There is nothing against enjoying these fruits. But it tells how embodied your awakening is

Of course, I am not saying to NEVER be philanthropic or donate, but I'm just saying you don't have to give away 100% of the profits to be 'Spiritual.' That is a complete fallacy in my eyes. 

In terms of my plans, yes I own my own businesses and yes I wish to create complete financial freedom for myself (sorry)

Financial freedom/independence is a great thing. It allows you to be most creative

 

 

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2 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

 

@GreenWoods  also regarding your last post, why not do both maximise your own happiness and so called “others” who are literally your very own self’s happiness?

Because these 2 are often at odds

2 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

? I don’t see why it has to be one or the other. In fact, sharing and loving and helping others often leads to greater levels of happiness and abundance, 

Yes. The more we help others the more happy we become. But once a certain point is reached helping more will decrease your happiness. I guess that could be a realistic sweet spot.

My intention was to contrast embodied enlightenment from not embodied enlightenment. Because I think that answers the original question of this thread. Or actually, I think it has two answers. The first is a lack of embodiment, but then the question is why isn't there perfect embodiment. And this question was already answered by other forum members.

And I don't say embodied enlightenment is better than not embodied enlightenment. But relatively speaking, there are pros and cons.

2 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Also, do you have a problem with teachers earning money? 

Definitely not. They provide value and have to live from something 

Edited by GreenWoods

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I feel we may never agree on this, but I do feel one can fully embody awakening and still have a nice house, car, basically enjoy material things such as nice food and drinks. 

Also, isn't creating a business that provides huge value already part of an embodied awakening as you are actively helping people find solutions to their needs. A famous wealthy individual was asked what's the best way to earn money- 'Get outside of yourself and why you want money. Learn to get in your customer's shoes, understand their needs and their problems and then solve them and help them.' To me, that sounds like a very loving and fulfilling way to run a business! And, I agree Stage Orange isn't always like this, but those exploiting and benefitting from loopholes in our society will not prevail forever, a business that fulfills needs and helps people will. To me, running a business like that is part of an embodied awakening. 

The family comments- Yes but one needs balance, that's what I mean you can't work 24/7 and neglect your family, that isn't expressing love in your closest relationships at all in my eyes, it's hard to strike a balance! 

I don't agree ALL money made from a business should be used to create value, SOME can also be used in one's own life, of course, I'm not saying hoard excessive amounts like millionaires do, but enough so you can effortlessly live the lifestyle you desire for the rest of your life. 

I agree our lives should be devoted to helping others and service, however, this doesn't mean we should neglect our own lives and needs as a result. I watched an amazing Satsang on Loving Without Living recently, and it said about 'Receiving for the Sake of Sharing' which means literally what it says. But, to me it kind of feels you're slightly rejecting the receiving part, but, the Universe is constantly allowing us to receive absolutely everything it wants to share with us. So you receive lots of money from work say, you then share this with your loved ones (Nice House, material benefits, good schools etc) and then you also share beyond that and with those in need etc. 

I guess I'm trying to look at things in a slightly more balanced approach that doesn't negate your own needs and enjoyment but incorporates it all, and by increasing your own abundance you can also help increase others' abundance! 

You could call it 'Enlightened Greed' but by simply Receiving for the sake of sharing, you are working in allignment of the Universe and allowing yourself to benefit from what the Universe is giving you and the many joys of life, while always looking to share this with 'Others' which is yourself of course. 

To me, living in abundance is actually living in alignment with the Universe, and that living in poverty is actually not helpful at all, we all deserve abundance and as long as you are generous with the abundance we have been given, how are we not embodying Awakening? 

For me, post-awakening I have developed my business massively to focus more on helping people before profits and developing love in all areas of life. I still want to receive whatever the Universe gives me and enjoy these gifts :)

'Because these 2 are often at odds' 

I couldn't disagree more, living a life that helps others is the most fulfilling life possible, so you are actually benefitting from this without even knowing it potentially and there is no end to the depth of love we can give! 

'

Yes. The more we help others the happier we become. But once a certain point is reached helping more will decrease your happiness. That's the sweet spot in my opinion.

My intention was to contrast embodied enlightenment from not embodied enlightenment. Because I think that answers the original question of this thread.

And I don't say embodied enlightenment is better than not embodied enlightenment. But relatively speaking, there are pros and cons.'

 

 Nope, there is no end to how deep you can love or how much you can help, of course you have to take care of your own needs (I think I've said enough on that xD) but there is no end to infinite love, how could there be? 

Embodied enlightenment to me means abiding as The Self, and knowing everyone is your very own self. Of course it goes way deeper, but that's an easy summary. You can live like this in various ways like I said whether it's as an athlete doing your best in your sport and doing what you love, or helping the poor, everyone's path of spreading love and living this understanding is different, there is no one path. I used to struggle with this topic, so will link a few videos from Rupert Spira that helped me in particular. 

gm

 

 


'One is always in the absolute state, knowingly or unknowingly for that is all there is.' Francis Lucille. 

'Peace and Happiness are inherent in Consciousness.' Rupert Spira 

“Your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world.” Ramana Maharshi

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