Isn't it weird how "neo-advaita" speakers talk shit about other teachers?

[Consilience]

I wonder how many neo advaita folks get trapped in the no self self trap. I see that as a big limitation of these types of communications... if we deny the existence of a self, we can end up missing how self centered behaviors, thoughts and emotions continue to drive our experience of reality forward. Again to reiterate, no self does not mean no self survival. Very critical insight to understand how as one discoveries the lack of self, one can further become more human because being human is survival... and survival never stops. 

[Inliytened1]

16 minutes ago, Consilience said:

I wonder how many neo advaita folks get trapped in the no self self trap. I see that as a big limitation of these types of communications... if we deny the existence of a self, we can end up missing how self centered behaviors, thoughts and emotions continue to drive our experience of reality forward. Again to reiterate, no self does not mean no self survival. Very critical insight to understand how as one discoveries the lack of self, one can further become more human because being human is survival... and survival never stops. 

Indeed...notice the definition...its a religious movement.    To me that smells of a belief and not actuality.   Actuality is isness itself and awakening through the collapse of the self via mysticism.  Not through the ego realizing it.     Once that happens you as the Godhead tap into Infinite intelligence and get a full hit on what reality is fundamentally.   Thus these types of traps would be a non-issue!

Im not saying that some neo-advaita teachers aren't fully awake but it really makes me suspicious......

[VeganAwake]

15 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

From Wikipedia:

Neo-Advaita, also called the Satsang-movement and Nondualism, is a New Religious Movement, emphasizing the direct recognition of the non-existence of the "I" or "ego," without the need of preparatory practice. 

Ask and ye shall receive...❤ thanks

When I read this it completely reminded me of Osho... although I'm aware he was big on meditation.

Anyone in tier-2 would recognize that Awakening can occur in traditional advaita, neo advaita and everything all encompassing... there's no prerequisites it's just something that apparently happens. Tony Parsons mentioned a drunk bum that awakened after a long night of partying and doing drugs. (of course you could say the drugs were a practice in itself)

Anyone taking a left to right movement in these non dual descriptions would just be limiting themselves to one option.

I've had a couple drinky-poo so I hope that makes sense? ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

there's no prerequisites it's just something that apparently happens. Tony Parsons mentioned a drunk bum that awakened after a long night of partying and doing drugs. (of course you could say the drugs were a practice in itself)

Yes it can definitely happen spontaneously.   

[tedens]

8 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Indeed...notice the definition...its a religious movement.    To me that smells of a belief and not actuality.  

Look at it from a different perspective:
through the activities of such religious movements, collective knowledge of spirituality increases.

[tedens]

On 19.02.2020 at 0:50 AM, traveler said:

I've been watching Tony Parson, Jim Newman, Richard Sylvester and other "neo-advaita" speakers lately. Their main message is This Is It, which something resonate with. What I don't get is why many of these speakers often talk shit about other teachers like Rupert Spira, Eckhart Tolle and Adyashanti. They say that these teachers talk to an individual, while they themselves doesn't talk at all, there are just speaking happening. Alright, but in awakening it is seen that everything is saying the exact same thing, THIS IS IT. It is so obvious that there is nobody, there are only things happening, people aren't separate, there is only one. Everything literally is one. How then if there is "no me" in Tony, Jim and Richard there is story about how their message is coming more purely from oneness than the teachings of Rupert, Adyashanti and Eckhart Tolle? Seems very contradicting. There are infinite ways to describe the beloved, every single one of them falls short of the truth. 

Because ego operates in duality and in order to survive. Each of us is relatively full of shit. That is why it is said that ego is the devil.

[Esoteric]

On 2/19/2020 at 8:37 AM, Raptorsin7 said:

@VeganAwake This is nonsense. Practices are necessary for a lot of people early on the path. These neo-adavita guys seems like idiots imo.

I agree. This is the typical arrogance of the west. They think they can take a rich tradition and strip away centuries of deep work done and mold it into a new shallow system. It's extremely arrogant and elitist, thinking the culture they're from is superior and obviously more advanced. Voila now you got a spiritual system for lazy people.

[LfcCharlie4]

I'll get pushbacks for this, but to me, they say this because they only have partial awakenings, they're definitely awakened and have had awakenings but tend to get stuck at the whole 'No-Self' rap, however, they help a lot of people and that's what matters most. 

To me, you could say these guys are the League 2 of Spiritual Teachers, and teachers like Francis Lucille, Rupert Spira, Adyashanti, Ramana Maharshi and Nisgardatta Maharaj are the Premier League. Shit analogy but can't think of a better one really. 

The funny thing is if they actually truly practiced Self-Inquiry they'd realize No-Self is simply not the final answer, and is in fact the I-Thought clinging onto a new Identity that very subtly rejects 'Duality.' 'There is nobody there, nothing to do' is a great teacher in certain situations and for certain people, but when used as a blanket message is hugely reductionist. 

That said seeing through the illusion of self is a HUGE step on the path, and one many won't take, and as I said IS a genuine awakening but stopping here is like running in an 800M race and deciding the finish line is only after 200M. Basically your selling yourself short. Once you start to teach, you also rarely develop further and 'crystalize' (Leo seems a rare exception but he's not exactly a full time touring speaker and is more focused on his own growth)

Like I said all teachers are amazing in that they are trying to help people awaken and that is beautiful. But, this doesn't mean all teachers are created equal, although saying someone has had a deeper awakening is like a crime in some circles of Non-Duality. 

Also, saying practices aren't worthwhile is reductionist. In some cases people may benefit from dropping certain practices, as Practices in a Non-Dual sense are meant to take you into the silence and experience the truth for yourself. (Ramana literally invented Self-Inquiry for this purpose) But, practices can have other benefits for people- Meditation/ Breathwork can help with sleep, anxiety, healing etc, much of this isn't necessarily related to Non-Duality but clearly practices benefit many people. 

Then you also have the issue of past lives, (if you believe in past lives/ karma) you could look into these guys past lives and see decades or lifetime of spiritual practices for example to prepare them for awakening, and most would have done some form in this lifetime, they may not benefit them now but that doesn't mean they never have. For example, those who had spontaneous awakenings could have had lifetimes of practice e.g. Ramana and Eckhart Tolle, or they're just super lucky. Practices may not benefit everyone, but benefit many and help many realize the True nature of reality.

Neo-Advaita is actually quite dangerous imo, when embodied as a belief system it can be very toxic and confusing, they are talking from a place of understanding but their listeners are unlikely to actually get it experientially so may go home and tell their children 'There's nobody here to take care of you anymore' etc, extreme example but we have to be careful of the ramifications these things can have. 

Many more developed teachers have written on the modern issue of Neo-Advaita, so I'll link some articles below. All I'll say is take what you can from these teachers, but don't become dogmatic about the message, they never really talk about Love, The Absolute, The Self etc and to me miss many facets of awakening. 

Also, suggesting no work needs to be done is incredibly appealing right? What would you rather do, be told there's no work to do, or actually put in the effort to grow yourself and work on your shadow. Even if there is a spontaneous awakening, there is still embodiment and shadow work to be done, which these teachers forever miss out on. 

The neglection of teachers like Adya and Rupert could be as realizing deeper truths would involve deep inquiry and put their current livelihoods at risk, we have to remember awakened beings aren't always free of self-bias. I personally went through this crisis as was an Eckhart Tolle addict, and realizing his teachings weren't the be-all and end all was hard for my 17 year old self to take! 

You could say they are at the Neti, Neti Stage (Not This, No Self, Nobody here) but have failed to embrace the path of Inclusion in that I am everything, I am love, I am The Absolute, which is a much more complete teaching. 

This is it, as it is right now, but not in the Neo-Advaita use of the word. I used to love Rupert Spira and read most of his books and posts, he for one wrote on this subject: 

https://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/suicide_and_awakened_behaviour230 

https://non-duality.rupertspira.com/watch/suffering-and-neo-advaita

 

[LfcCharlie4]

@Esoteric Yep. It is perfect for westerners though, It's like seeing things- 'Lose weight without exercise and while still eating Bacon and Candy' or 'Lose Weight by moving more, eating whole foods and reducing Inflammation in your body!' what one sells more? 

As I said in my post there is value and elements of truth to these teachings, The Small I is a fiction, however stopping at No-Self is reductionist and part of the path of Exclusion, to me the fun really began after realizing I am Everything, I am Love, This is it etc, any form of negation no matter how subtle is a form of rejection and therefore can not be the final answer. Even Non-Duality is simply medicine for Duality. 

You can't eat a Non-Apple can you? 

Just to be clear I have great respect for these teachers and they in fact help so many people, but that doesn't mean they're perfect

[VeganAwake]

"This is a communication which illuminates the paradoxical nature of non-duality and exposes the deluded idea that it is something that can be acquired and experienced.

It is so obvious and simple that the grasping of it obscures it. Never found, never lost, never knowable, being is the consummate absence that is beyond measure.

It seems that in the boundless energy that is oneness there can also arise a contracted energy which brings about apparent self-awareness. A powerful and convincing sense of self-identity seems to arise together with a belief in personal free will and choice in what is experienced as a real life story. All of these personal experiences can only apparently arise in what seems to be a very real but dualistic reality in which everything appears to be separate. This sense of separation can bring with it a sense of loss and a need to seek guidance, an understanding or a path or process that can promise fulfilment. There are attempts to seek unity which are totally futile because the separate seeker is apparently the very dualism from which it is trying to escape.

Looking for being is believing that it is lost. Has anything been lost, or is it simply that the looking obscures? Does the beloved dance constantly just beyond our focus?

This dilemma is illuminated in this unique communication which makes no demands, has no expectations and does not cater in any way to the seeker’s need for answers, processes or a path to follow. This uncompromising message can be both confronting and liberating.

"Life is not a task. There is absolutely nothing to attain except the realisation that there is absolutely nothing to attain."

The whole personal investment in making spiritual progress, becoming more aware, more still, more open or more anything at all can simply unravel in this radical revelation. The whole perception of “the self” or “the world” it seems to live in, can be transformed and leave nothing to support the illusion of personal separation, control and continuation.

Suddenly, the absence that was feared is the absence which is unknowable, but paradoxically is also the very fullness, the freedom that was longed for"

- Tony Parsons

[LfcCharlie4]

I think you often think I'm then talking about separation or some form of an individual that gets enlightened, I'm really not. What I'm saying is the first glimpse of truth, The experience of No-Self is the beginning, not the end. I stated that the separate Self is an illusion, the Little me is a fiction, and all that exists is The Absolute, the 'world' is simply The Absolute, the world as we know it doesn't actually exist as anything except Presence, The Absolute or whatever you want to call it. 

'To move from the belief, I am something, to the understanding that I am nothing is a path of exclusion - I am not this, not this, not this. To move from the understanding that I am nothing to the all-embracing feeling-understanding that I am everything is a path of inclusion - I am this, I am this, I am this. The first is a path of understanding, the second a path of love.' 

Rupert puts it well. No Self, is the path of exclusion, and not the end of the path, but the beginning. 

True Advaita/ Non-Duality takes us to Absolute Peace and Happiness without any cause. 

I like you @VeganAwake but honestly, a lot of what you say sounds very much like Neo-Advaita, 6:27 - As he says it's fine for people who are already at peace and happiness, however telling people who believe there is a Personal Entity that there is 'nothing to do' is such a shitty teaching, for starters that belief needs to rid off, there is something to do! As I said this is about the seeing through of separation and the separate entity, and the recognition of the true nature of our beings that brings this absolute peace and happiness. 

These teachers are speaking from the 'other side' and most listeners are not there, therefore, the teachings simply are not helpful in most cases. So, if someone is unhappy and there is nothing they can do is that just it? Does this person not deserve happiness then, as there's nothing they can do about their unhappiness?

I always say the deepest teaching is that of a transmission of presence and being in the presence of awakened beings. 

However, when that is not possible, and even on top of that, practices are very beneficial for a number of reasons. 

Most of the people listening to Neo-Advaita teachers are NOT happy, are NOT at peace and have Zero/Little experiential understanding, therefore, saying there is 'nothing' one can do is literally a pointless teaching in MOST Cases. Of course, in some cases, it is the EXACT teaching they need if they've been seeking for decades and are still stuck, but as a blanket teaching, it is very unhelpful. 

 

This article by Rupert is beautiful and a great reminder for those on the path, I forget how eloquent his writing is  

https://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read/the_disentanglement_of_the_self

[VeganAwake]

Yes, it is constantly pointed out by Tony that this communication has no expectations and does not cater in any way to the seeker’s need for answers, processes or a path to follow. This uncompromising message can be both confronting and liberating.

It basically points out there's no help here for the individual, because it's recognized that the individual is an illusion.

This message isn't received by the individual. The goal is to toss it over the head of the illusory individual to resonate in the court of being.

"there is no hope here for the individual, because that's the illusion"

Yes climb back onto the hamster wheel and continue seeking for this is all the separate self can do anyways. But there is nothing wrong with THIS because it is THIS...?

Edited February 21, 2020 by VeganAwake

[LfcCharlie4]

@VeganAwake I don't think you get it. That literally is Neo-Advaita and also quite an unhelpful and uncaring message? 

'I'm extremely unhappy' 

'There's nobody to be unhappy, there is no individual that's unhappy.' 

Yes to us, that makes sense. Still just because nobody is there, does not mean the feeling of unhappiness disappears for someone who BELIEVES in the separate self, in fact it probably only makes it worse. 

What would be much more beneficial would be to go to the root of the issue, experientially understand the Separate self is a fiction, and deal with it that way. (As well as many other lifestyle alterations if one has suffered from depression for a long time and it is not a 'spiritual' depression) 

To me, Neo-Advaitans are just very reductionist in their teachings, if it resonates with you and has helped you find an absolute sense of peace and happiness that has no cause, then great. 

However, for the majority of seekers, such a blanket, a simple approach will not be very beneficial and will likely do more harm than good.

Anyways, different teachers and approaches resonate with different people, and I wish you nothing but peace and happiness   

[VeganAwake]

I'm sure you are aware of this already but I don't adhere to any one communication or belief system or whatever...

I've just spent a lot of time listening to their communication and I wanted to make sure it got portrayed accurately... as I also have much respect for their work.

I do agree that their communication is unique in that it goes straight in for the kill.

I get what you are saying but it almost sounds like you are also saying people need to be fed a load of BS before they will stumble upon the truth for themselves. 

This is a no beating around the bush or running on the hamster wheel approach..

Anyways yes there's a lot of good material here in this thread and this is exactly why these things are discussed in my opinion... there's a kernel of Truth in everything.

Have a good afternoon as well my brother...❤

I'm Coming For That vegan Festival next year he he..?

 

 

 

[LfcCharlie4]

@VeganAwake I agree about the hamster wheel comment, Rupert& Francis belong to the 'Direct Path' so that kind of tells you what it's about. 

Defo don't need to fed a load of BS at all, just saying practices can be effective, and often have psychological work- E.G. someone who has traumas needs to deal with these either Pre or Post Awakening, it won't just go away if you get what I mean  

I have great respect for all teachers, as anyone helping to awaken someone is, of course, doing amazing work!  

I'm all for the Direct approach hence why I love RASA, Transmissions, Direct Teachings etc as well as direct practices like Meditations, Self-Inquiry, we are very lucky compared to the old days of decade long Guru/ Disciple relationships and needing to go to India for the teachings!

[VeganAwake]

@LfcCharlie4 very true...❤ we are standing on the shoulders of giants

[VeganAwake]

 

[purerogue]

That is just silly , it is still mind, just instead of regular logical intellect, he is using emotional intellect.

Only thing you must fear is people like these, ones who think that they got the answer and preach others that it is where it ends. 

From one delusion into another. 

 

 

[VeganAwake]

I know these messages don't leave a leg to stand on or anything for the seeker so It can feel very frustrating. I get it!!

Unfortunately there's nothing this seeking energy can do to get rid of itself because it isn't real to begin with.

The very act of seeking perpetuates the belief in the illusion and on and on the hamster wheel turns.

The trick is to get off the hamster wheel and put the illusion out of a job...❤

 

 

 

 

[purerogue]

Be careful that life does not go and bite you back on your words, it is no different that someone who is depressed saying that life is meaningless and suffering then being in ecstasy in next day saying how everything is perfect, same thing , just different states, with different setup.