DefinitelyNotARobot

Is there an observer?

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I've been trying to find the observer of my thoughts lately. What I found kind of confused my mind, so I'd like to ask you about your opinions, since I'm not sure whether any of this makes sense or not. To my mind this doesn't sound very "logical" so I'm kinda unsure.

Somebody had suggested that I'd make "the one observing my thoughts" my point of meditation. So I tried doing that. I did that by simply observing. Direct experience, nothing else. I sat there when it suddenly hit me: In my direct experience there is no actual observer! All I could find was... awareness.

It's hard to explain. But I'll try anyways.

Quote

Awareness: Knowledge or perception of a situation or fact.

The idea of an observer is just that. An idea. A concept. Once I let my thoughts do their own thing, without paying any attention to them, this idea disappeared. I tried going with what was actual in that moment and all that was actual was awareness.

It's really hard to put it into words. But there was "nobody" being aware. There was just an awareness. My body. My mind. They just existed "within" this awareness. When I say awareness I am not talking about the human senses. Even those senses just existed "within" THIS awareness.

When I look at an apple, I can't know for sure, whether that apple is real or not. It might be real, or it might be a hallucination. But what I do know for sure, is that the awareness of seeing that apple is real!

What about physicality? How come you can't push your hand through a solid brick wall? Your hand and the wall seem to be aware of each other on a physical level! My hand should't be able to react to the wall if there was no awareness.

But I'm back to theory land. I guess my mind wants to make sense of it. I AM pretty confused.

For a second I stopped identifying with the mind and the body. Instead I identified with this awareness. I then snapped back into my egoic mind.

Every time I meditate there are multiple moments throughout the meditation where I get this... "vibe". It feels like I could go deeper into the meditation and reach some kind of realization or truth. Ironically this "feeling of being able to go deeper" then ends up distracting me... Same thing happened yesterday! It felt like there was a realization lurking right around the corner, but I got distracted. Is this just the ego trying to distract me, or is there actually some deeper realization that I just have to push through to? And how would I do that?

Anyways, all of this got me wondering: What the fuck was that? I feel pretty crazy right now. Can anybody help me with my confusion? I'd appreciate to hear your insights!

 

Peace!

 


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@DefinitelyNotARobot what is always interesting about this observer is the language we use when trying to describe any interaction with it. You said:

7 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

I've been trying to find the observer of my thoughts lately

Notice the highlighted words. I’ve been trying to find the observer. So, in one moment, there is observation of thoughts as this “observer” state is encountered, then in another moment, there is “you”, trying to be separate from this observer. So which is it? Are you the observer, or are you the one looking for the observer, or are you both, or are you neither? 

I am currently roughly at this observer stage as well, a dualistic form of awareness, where subject and object are seemingly separate. But then, you realise that somehow you know of this observer, so do you just know yourself, or, is what you are, looking for the observer?

like you, this kind of boggles my mind as well. I am still waiting for insight, and like you said, it’s a slippery practice.

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11 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

that I just have to push through to

Let go of. :)

Worrying in any way about any of this is the veil in a sense. “Push through” is more - completely relax, everything’s ok. 

11 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

When I look at an apple, I can't know for sure, whether that apple is real or not. It might be real, or it might be a hallucination. But what I do know for sure, is that the awareness of seeing that apple is real!

Notice there is perception.              And the thought “apple”.          Perception, is not an “apple”.     Apple is a thought, within “your” awareness.

11 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Your hand and the wall seem to be aware of each other on a physical level! My hand should't be able to react to the wall if there was no awareness.

In that same regard, “wall” is a thought.      Sensation, is not “a wall”.

 

11 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Every time I meditate there are multiple moments throughout the meditation where I get this... "vibe". It feels like I could go deeper into the meditation and reach some kind of realization or truth. Ironically this "feeling of being able to go deeper" then ends up distracting me... Same thing happened yesterday! It felt like there was a realization lurking right around the corner, but I got distracted. Is this just the ego trying to distract me, or is there actually some deeper realization that I just have to push through to? And how would I do that?

Let that go. Let every thought about, go. To see the empty canvas, every thought is a brush stroke. 


MEDITATIONS TOOLS  ActualityOfBeing.com  GUIDANCE SESSIONS

NONDUALITY LOA  My Youtube Channel  THE TRUE NATURE

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It's definitely a problem of language. Language has brainwashed us, specifically the English language in this case.

We're conditioned into attributing actions (or things that happen) to an agent that either carries it out or makes it happen.  So for every action there is an accompanying "I" or "she" or "it" doing the action (and other pronouns).

Even when the agent isn't specified it's implied. When saying something like "the wind is blowing" what we really mean is "the wind is blowing itself". Or for another example "the volcano is exploding", again we really mean "the volcano is exploding itself" (i.e. the verb is reflexive). 

It's even worse for the words "consciousness" and "awareness", because they are really verbs in disguise that have been turned into nouns. But the words can't be easily turned back into verbs. To get around the problem we use language and say that "consciousness (a noun) is perceived (a verb) by something (the agent)" - and confusion reigns.

But you have clearly seen through the smokescreen of language. Consciousness and awareness are neither verbs nor nouns and don't require an agent  for them to "happen". In fact language sits "inside" consciousness, not the other way around.

 


All stories and explanations are false.

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Isness is.

Consciousness is.

You could say that is the observer. Just as long as you understand the observer and the observed are identical, and the observer exists but has no from or quality whatsoever.

You could also say the observer is God. And God is nothing. But it is a nothing which exists.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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8 hours ago, Spaceofawareness said:

So, in one moment, there is observation of thoughts as this “observer” state is encountered, then in another moment, there is “you”, trying to be separate from this observer. So which is it? Are you the observer, or are you the one looking for the observer, or are you both, or are you neither? 

Man that's tricky! The ego has been deceiving me for song long that I honestly can't tell. It's such an integral part of my life that I can't tell true from false. "I" am in fact the ego talking right now. And I will be for as long as I haven't found the true self. It's not that the true self doesn't already exist, it does, but the ego is really good at deceiving itself!

Isn't it funny that "I" am trying to find the true self, but the "I" that is trying to find it is just the ego? "I" am trying to find the truth, but the truth is the most dangerous thing to the "I" since it will dissolve all boundaries and concepts that the "I" has created, including the "I" itself! So maybe "my" search for the truth is the biggest deception there is? Maybe searching for enlightenment/happiness/freedom is the biggest obstacle that "I" have to face? I don't know. I don't even know what that "I" trying to find the truth is. WHO wants to dissolve the ego? Certainty not the ego itself. Perhaps it's the true self. Perhaps it's just the ego all over again. All I know is that "I" am really confused.

That being said...

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

Let go

... how does the "I" that does NOT want to let go, let go? Am I just overthinking it? I remember a trip where I was facing an ego death. My sense of "my" body had already dissolved. I was facing the dissolution of "my" mind. But I couldn't do it! I got overwhelmed with anxiety, fear and panic. In hindsight I know that all I had to do was to let go. But once you actually do face the possibility of the ego dying, the ego starts fighting back with all it got. Like an animal being cornered by a predator. The ego won't go out without a fight. The ego has nothing to loose at this point.

I think the problem is not "what" I have to do, but rather "how" I have to do it. Again, am I just overthinking it? Is the "how" even important, or is it something that you just do? 

I grew up around a lot of narcissistic people (both parents) and I'm starting to see "their" image whenever I look into the mirror... The ego doesn't like to admit this, but it's true. I was watching this video the other day, and it really resonated with me. I don't agree with everything he says, but the part from 0:39 to 6:22 where he talks about what letting go would feel like for a narcissist almost made me tear up. I don't like putting myself into a box like narcissism, but I can't deny how accurate this description is. That makes me wonder: How do I let go, if the "letting go" feels like hell? I DO know that all of this is just thoughts. But these thoughts are pretty damn convincing (which is just another thought lol)

I feel like my mind keeping making up a thousand problems for every problem I'm trying to face. How do I navigate through this fog of thoughts and confusion? I don't even know why I'm asking this to be honest. Maybe I have a genuine problem, maybe it's just yet another problem my mind has made up in order to actually distract me from the truth. All I know is that I don't know anything. I feel like a different person everyday. I don't even know what the "I" is at this point. I don't know who I think I am and I don't know who I actually am. Any advice would be appreciated!

 

3 hours ago, LastThursday said:

It's definitely a problem of language. Language has brainwashed us, specifically the English language in this case.

I was talking about this with a friend the other day! Language limits us in so many ways. Especially when you "think" in language. I was wondering: What if there was a word for "I", that didn't refer to "I" as a singular object separate from everything else? What if there was a word for "I" that included everything else? A word that made the "I" be relative/connected to everything else? What if there was no "I"? No "other"? Just more of the same thing? Would people have a different perception of reality? Would they think differently about life? Obviously that idea would be kind of difficult to manifest into a word, but you get the point. What if we stopped using language to separate reality and rather started using it to unify it?

I think a good example is music! Music can unify people of different ages, nationalities, races etc. Not only that but it can unify people and animals too! Just look at this video! The monkey understood what the guy was "expressing" with the song! Not only that, but WE can understand what the monkey was trying to communicate through its dance! Look at the monkey and try to see what the monkey was trying to "say"!

Edited by DefinitelyNotARobot
oops

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7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You could say that is the observer. Just as long as you understand the observer and the observed are identical, and the observer exists but has no from or quality whatsoever.

Like a dream dreaming itself?


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1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Like a dream dreaming itself?

Like reality being itself.

You can't create metaphors for reality because all things are reality.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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2 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Language limits us in so many ways. Especially when you "think" in language.

All language distorts reality.

It's perfectly possible to think without using "self speak". But you still have a (non-verbal) internal language overlaying raw reality: the world is carved up into objects, moving objects, animate objects, colours, intensities, relationships, people, animals and so on. It would be impossible NOT to use this tacit language.

But the internal language can be re-configured over time and as a consequence your view of reality changes. Encouraging that re-configuration is your best shot.


All stories and explanations are false.

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3 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

anxiety, fear and panic.

When it comes to the inward path, it’s more about looking at what you already did, than it is about what you do. 

You already labeled ‘your inner being’, the guidance that is unconditional love....as “anxiety”, “fear”, and panic.

What comes to mind, as why you did that? 

Those thoughts which come to mind...if you let them go, put them aside for just a minute...and focus only on the feeling, the sensation you feel, without the thoughts...how would you describe that sensation? Do you find any “problem” with it? 

You might notice how those thoughts “come back”....let them go again, and focus on sensation. 

 

3 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

I feel like my mind keeping making up a thousand problems for every problem I'm trying to face. How do I navigate through this fog of thoughts and confusion?

By doing what I described above. It is not at all well communicated through this typing. But it is indeed the complete & whole resolve. 

3 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

I don't even know why I'm asking this to be honest.

It’s because suffering, is suffering. 

3 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Maybe I have a genuine problem, maybe it's just yet another problem my mind has made up in order to actually distract me from the truth. All I know is that I don't know anything. I feel like a different person everyday. I don't even know what the "I" is at this point. I don't know who I think I am and I don't know who I actually am. Any advice would be appreciated!

We mislabel feeling, and thought goes round and round trying to resolve it, but never does. Please don’t underestimate the explanation above, or, don’t write off that a simple practice can change it all. It can, and it indeed will. If you are not knowing the worth / utilization of the emotional scale, let me know if you’d like to talk about it. :)

 


MEDITATIONS TOOLS  ActualityOfBeing.com  GUIDANCE SESSIONS

NONDUALITY LOA  My Youtube Channel  THE TRUE NATURE

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1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

But the internal language can be re-configured over time and as a consequence your view of reality changes. Encouraging that re-configuration is your best shot.

What exactly do you mean by re-configuring the internal language? How would you do this?

 

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

When it comes to the inward path, it’s more about looking at what you already did, than it is about what you do. 

You already labeled ‘your inner being’, the guidance that is unconditional love....as “anxiety”, “fear”, and panic.

Hmm, that makes me think: I once read that humans tend to act in accordance to their past decisions. I wonder why that is? I know it's the ego, but I don't understand the why behind all of it.

 

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

Those thoughts which come to mind...if you let them go, put them aside for just a minute...and focus only on the feeling, the sensation you feel, without the thoughts...how would you describe that sensation? Do you find any “problem” with it? 

Reminds me of something that happened a few month ago. I used to get anxious around people all the time. My anxiety bugged me for years. Then I started meditating.

I remember a specific evening 4 - 5 months ago, where I was out with my friends and I got really anxious. My heart started racing and so did my thoughts. Then a single thought appeared which kinda changed my life. "Why am I so anxious?" I didn't know, so I started breathing and I observing. And suddenly... I understood. This "anxiety" was merely a sensation in the body. It was neither a negative sensation, nor was it a positive one. It was just a sensations. Nothing but a "burning" sensation in the abdomen, followed by a racing heart. I just observed it and boom. Didn't have anxiety since.

The sensation in my body caused my mind to go wild, which caused my body to react even stronger, making my thoughts go even wilder.There still seems to be a believe for thought and bodily sensation, but I'm able to see through it more often now!

I hope that the next time I have an opportunity to let go of the ego, I'll be ready!

 

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

By doing what I described above. It is not at all well communicated through this typing. But it is indeed the complete & whole resolve

So really what I have to learn is to step outside of these "thought-stories"? Sometimes I don't seem to be aware of the fact that I even have that option. I get so involved in how I feel and what I think about the way I feel, that I forget to actually just take a step back and observe! I will try to keep your advise in mind! Thank you very much!

 

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

We mislabel feeling, and thought goes round and round trying to resolve it, but never does.

Why does that happen? Why do we mislabel these feelings? And why do we always try to use our thoughts to solve problems that can't be solved by thought alone? It's like trying to operate a computer using a hammer. We know it won't work, yet we keep doing it.

 

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

If you are not knowing the worth / utilization of the emotional scale, let me know if you’d like to talk about it. :)

I'd appreciate that! I am not too good at managing my emotions... I used to be in a kind of "rational stage orange" state throughout my teens and I grew up without any appreciation for my emotions and my intuition. It has been only recently that I have learned that they are an integral part of life and that I should pay more attention to them! I still have a lot of work to do, but I feel like I've opened up a really important dimension.


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Some enlightened people believe there isn't an observer at all. 

They believe Conscious awareness is the dream of the illusory individual.

Basically Just Energy experiencing itself...no creator.. Just pure Boundless Energy. No, meaning or purpose.

 

 


“Everything is honoured, but nothing matters.” — Eckhart Tolle.

"I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside." -- Rumi

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@VeganAwake Interesting! I wonder what kind of deep states they must have experienced to arrive at this "conclusion" if you could call it one.

What is your personal opinion if I may ask?


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11 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Some enlightened people believe there isn't an observer at all. 

They believe Conscious awareness is the dream of the illusory individual.

Basically Just Energy experiencing itself...no creator.. Just pure Boundless Energy. No, meaning or purpose.

 

 

Indeed there is no observer.  All is Truth from the Absolute POV


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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30 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

@VeganAwake Interesting! I wonder what kind of deep states they must have experienced to arrive at this "conclusion" if you could call it one.

What is your personal opinion if I may ask?

It feels unknowable, but at the same time so simple. Real and unreal.

An infinite unlimited energy with no agenda but pure potential.

Nothing and everything. 

Too crazy... The trick is to embrace the unknown craziness of it all. ?

 

 

 

 

Edited by VeganAwake

“Everything is honoured, but nothing matters.” — Eckhart Tolle.

"I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside." -- Rumi

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12 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

It feels unknowable, but at the same time so simple. Real and unreal.

An infinite unlimited energy with no agenda but pure potential.

Nothing and everything. 

Too crazy... The trick is to embrace the unknown craziness of it all. ?

 

 

 

 

Well said sir.


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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@VeganAwake Beautifully said!

Is it just me or does the fact that it's unknowable create a certain sense of peace?

We are constantly caught up in trying to understand... "this". We are constantly caught up in trying to know what the hell is going on. We are constantly trying to dissect, decipher, label and analyze everything around us. The fact that it's unknowable takes a lot of weight off of my shoulders! I know that I can just lay back and enjoy "its" beauty without having to understand it. Without having to think about it. It's already beautiful even if I don't know what "it" is.

Oh man, those 4 lines of text got me in my feels xD


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Yeah, it's like you get the solution to the question by unknowing it...? 

True paradox.


“Everything is honoured, but nothing matters.” — Eckhart Tolle.

"I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside." -- Rumi

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6 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

What exactly do you mean by re-configuring the internal language? How would you do this?

Sorry, I was trying to be fancy.

I'm going to be lazy and suggest you watch this episode for some background first:

 

 


All stories and explanations are false.

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On 11.2.2020 at 2:17 AM, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

When I look at an apple, I can't know for sure, whether that apple is real or not. It might be real, or it might be a hallucination. But what I do know for sure, is that the awareness of seeing that apple is real!

Is a hallucination unreal?

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