geddie212

Enlightenment and self-actualisation is bullshit and a waste of time.

10 posts in this topic

2 weeks ago I had a non-dual experience. I firstly had a non-abiding non-dual experience in the middle of the night where my outer senses collapsed and then there was no point of origin anymore, object and perceiver didn't exist anymore, everything in my field of awareness was me and it was full of life/energy/consciousness. Suddenly fear rushed in, and it was so strong that it identified with me strongly and instantaneously and i almost had a panic attack. I wrote about the experience on reddit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/eluzm9/help_need_some_advice_from_someone_about_my/

Next day i saw a reply with a video from Rupert Spira, i looked in his eyes, then my vision blurred, and the consciousness which i thought was me (the part that's behind the eyes) was super focused and it inverted itself and then I had an experience where I was everything, I could visually feel and see my thoughts and they were super rapid. The best metaphor I can come up with is sperm cells going super fast and flying towards the field of awareness. Everything in the field awareness was super crisp and alive and extremely intense. It was almost too beautiful and strong. Reality didn't look like it was made of matter and particles anymore (what i was taught in school), reality existed because of consciousness, without consciousness there's no reality. Objective reality is just a made-up concept by a collection of human ego-minds and we just simply believe in this delusion without ever having experienced objective reality in the field of consciousness by being aware.

So why do I think enlightenment is a bunch of horseshit? please read on:

The way which I achieved enlightenment is observe fear as a sensation and see how fear embodiment has been running my whole life. Nearly all my life decisions were based on fear. People don't realise this but fear is the main driver for most of their decisions, it's so subtle that most people don't even realise it. Fear embodiment is probably the biggest stumbling block to a non-dual experience. 

So anyway, yesterday I was held up at knife point just outside my house and all this enlightenment bullshit went straight out the fucking window. I think what i realised being in such a position fear and vulnerability when someone has a knife to your neck, has shown me that even if you have some non-dual experience that you will have fear operating. What did all those years of meditating, dis-identifying with fear do in that situation? FUCK ALL that's what! FUCK ALL. I was terrified, I had constant fucking dreams about it, waking up in the middle of the night. What has my enlightenment experience taught me from this situation? That i would have acted and been full of terror and fear whether i did have the non-dual experience or not.

This experience just proved to me this: God or whoever the fuck it is running this whole show has deluded humans and animal beings on purpose. I have a special place for Rupert Spira in my heart (Leo Gura also) but Rupert Spira is chatting out his fucking ass when he says that pure God/Consciousness doesn't know evil/fear. This is absolute bullshit. God knows fucking fear and evil, the fucker invented it. Where the hell do you think your ego and conceptual thought identification comes from, out of nowhere? It's created somewhere! Even animals have conceptual thoughts, they identify with other dogs, if they got hit as little puppies by a belt, they will be scared of belts. My dog is scared of bin bags because she got trapped in one as a puppy, so she runs away every time i change the bin bags in the house. That's FEAR using conceptual thought of having the image of a bin bag in her dog-ego-mind.

God has deluded all of us on purpose, why else is enlightenment so fucking hard? Maybe God/Reality doesn't want you to experience it that's why, maybe enlightenment is a bunch of bullshit. Maybe non-duality is just an altered state of consciousness and is meaningless. When push comes to shove, it's your ego-mind that will save you. That nirvanic state of non-duality will not save you, it's a fucking hindrance. And when you have a horrific experience happen to you, it will be your ego-mind and fear which will be operating you and saving you and making you relive the experience.

And Leo constantly bashing survival and all this, to me it's fucking nonsense. Why do I have the ability to produce children if survival is pointless? It's fucking built by the same God who's saying that survival is bullshit? absolute fucking nonsense.

Honestly the only thing i want to do, is actually forget this enlightenment and spiritual fluffy bullshit, forget this non-dual awareness, Also fuck DMT, I don't want to do that either, just another altered state of bullshit, speaking to "aliens" which are probably your own fucking thoughts in the first place.

I'm going to live my fucking life, get a security camera outside my house, get a German shepherd and try to raise children in this hostile fucked up world. This spiritual nonsense did nothing for me, I pursued it for no fucking reason. And as I said, spiritual pursuit is stupid anyway, why else is it so difficult to even experience it in the first place?

 

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Yeah it's bullshit of course. Embrace the aspect of you that's afraid. You are totally justified to be afraid. This part of you just wants your attention don't push it away!

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This is the result of an orientation toward an outcome. We can create a destination called "enlightenment" that is peaceful and lacks fear. We can create an imagine in which this peaceful, fearless place is permanent. This is a relative construct: a place without fear is relative to a place with fear. This is conditional. Enlightenment is conditional on being happy, joyful and peaceful. This is a super common orientation and leads to seeking. This orientation will limit potential. If I am seeking a peaceful, joyful state of being, I am avoiding a non-peaceful, non-joyful state of being. When potential insights involve fear and discomfort, I will recoil and say "This is awful! This isn't what enlightenment is about!". . . Notice the mind-body's reaction to the fearful situation. The mind and body recoiled away yelling "Enlightenment and self-actualization is bullshit and a waste of time!!". . . According to the meaning you give "Enlightenment and self-actualization", I would agree it's bullshit. Yet, I would say the bullshit is the meaning that enlightenment is an experience of perpetual peace and bliss. That meaning doesn't resonate with me. 

Now that you have decided the your old construct of enlightenment is bullshit, a couple options have opened up. We can say that the idea enlightenment is a never-ending feeling of comfort, peace and bliss is bullshit. We can put that idea aside and allow space to open up. . . At this point, we can maintain our orientation toward seeking never-ending feeling of comfort, peace and bliss. Since we trashed our old, outdated idea of enlightenment, we would need to seek this in new ways. Perhaps we could seek never-ending feeling of comfort, peace and bliss by making a lot of money, buying an island and living there. There are many other ways to seek perpetual comfort/peace/bliss. 

Trashing our old idea of "enlightenment" also allows an opportunity for an energetic shift. This is a deep/advanced shift that is very difficult for a person because the person is no longer the source of energetic motivation. At a personal level, we are motivated to find a place of "enlightenment" in which we no longer personally feel fear and other negative feelings. What if there was an energetic shift in which the source of motivation is to discover Truth for it's own sake. This is a radical shift. Now we are unconditionally seeking truth, regardless of whether it benefits us at a person level. With this orientation, the mind would not reject an experience of fear. There would be space for insights to be revealed within that fear. The ISness of fear and fearful situations has deep insights of truth, just like the ISness of a peaceful meditation retreat in a forest. . . . At a personal level, I have experienced terror and panic so intense that I wanted to kill myself. I couldn't make it stop. The only way I could regain control and make it stop was to kill myself. Yet I couldn't make it stop that way either. There was no escape and that made the terror/panic even worse. . . These experiences were among the most "enlightening" in my life, because there was space for deep truth to be revealed. Those moments of terror/panic were just as much "enlightenment" as my deeply peaceful, blissful experiences.  There are deeper truths that transcend personal experiences - there are deeper truths that are not dependent on conditions. Yet these truths will not be revealed if the mind is seeking conditional states, such as feelings of comfort, peace and bliss. 

To me, it sounds like there is a wonderful opportunity for an awakening here. You can toss your old conditional idea of "enlightenment" as a never-ending state of fearlessness and re-orient yourself toward truth for its own sake. 

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@geddie212 Society indoctrinates you for 12 yesrs in school, you never stand up and tell them that:

  • Math, History, All those lessons are pure bullshit and waste of time. Pure Cult.

BUT, you come up here and call enlightenment BS? What's up with that? 

I understand your point through. 99.99% of people are not conscious enough to not care about life threatening situation. But:

If someone threatened Buddha with a knife, probably he would not give a fuck about it. 

Just because you got afraid, is not a compelling enough reason to give up on spirituality. Also, it is not a reason to call this bullshit because you probably don't understand, everything...

So, keep doing the practices. That's not a reason to stop. That is a reason to continue. If you quit self actualization, will that help your issue? Contemplate that...

 

Hope this helps.

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8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This is the result of an orientation toward an outcome. We can create a destination called "enlightenment" that is peaceful and lacks fear. We can create an imagine in which this peaceful, fearless place is permanent. This is a relative construct: a place without fear is relative to a place with fear. This is conditional. Enlightenment is conditional on being happy, joyful and peaceful. This is a super common orientation and leads to seeking. This orientation will limit potential. If I am seeking a peaceful, joyful state of being, I am avoiding a non-peaceful, non-joyful state of being. When potential insights involve fear and discomfort, I will recoil and say "This is awful! This isn't what enlightenment is about!". . . Notice the mind-body's reaction to the fearful situation. The mind and body recoiled away yelling "Enlightenment and self-actualization is bullshit and a waste of time!!". . . According to the meaning you give "Enlightenment and self-actualization", I would agree it's bullshit. Yet, I would say the bullshit is the meaning that enlightenment is an experience of perpetual peace and bliss. That meaning doesn't resonate with me. 

Now that you have decided the construct of enlightenment is bullshit, a few options have opened up. We can say that the idea enlightenment is a never-ending feeling of comfort, peace and bliss is bullshit. We can put that idea aside and allow space to open up. . . At this point, we can maintain our orientation toward seeking never-ending feeling of comfort, peace and bliss. Since we trashed our old, outdated idea of enlightenment, we would need to seek this in new ways. Perhaps we could seek never-ending feeling of comfort, peace and bliss by making a lot of money, buying an island and living there. There are many other ways to seek perpetual comfort/peace/bliss. 

Trashing our old idea of "enlightenment" also allows an opportunity for an energetic shift. This is a deep/advanced shift that is very difficult for a person because the person is no longer the source of energetic motivation. At a personal level, we are motivated to find a place of "enlightenment" in which we no longer personally feel fear and other negative feelings. What if there was an energetic shift in which the source of motivation is to discover Truth for it's own sake. This is a radical shift. Now we are unconditionally seeking truth, regardless of whether it benefits us at a person level. With this orientation, the mind would not reject an experience of fear. There would be space for insights to be revealed within that fear. The ISness of fear and fearful situations has deep insights of truth, just like the ISness of a peaceful meditation retreat in a forest. . . . At a personal level, I have experienced terror and panic so intense that I wanted to kill myself. I couldn't make it stop. The only way I could regain control and make it stop was to kill myself. Yet I couldn't make it stop that way either. There was no escape and that made the terror/panic even worse. . . These experiences were among the most "enlightening" in my life, because there was space for deep truth to be revealed. Those moments of terror/panic were just as much "enlightenment" as my deeply peaceful, blissful experiences.  There are deeper truths that transcend personal experiences - there are deeper truths that are not dependent on conditions. Yet these truths will not be revealed if the mind is seeking conditional states, such as feelings of comfort, peace and bliss. 

To me, it sounds like there is a wonderful opportunity for an awakening here. You can toss your old conditional idea of "enlightenment" as a never-ending state of fearlessness and re-orient yourself toward truth for its own sake. 

Great point. I agree. That's the solution. 

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@geddie212 You are making the assumption that death is "bad" and fear of death is reasonable.

Enlightenment involves the death of fear so if someone is held at gunpoint, let the chips fall where they may.

In case anyone says I would react different if I was in that position, that would be false. I have zero fear of death.

Your fear of death is causing you to grasp and attach more strongly to life. If the timing of one's death is not under our control, why all the fuss?

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thanks for the words/advice. I'm not in the right frame to even digest what everyone has written on this thread. I'm so strongly embodied by fear and anger at the moment that I can't really concentrate fully what is written in the replies. At the moment leaving my house to go to a shop is a fucking struggle, let alone being able to fully digest what is written.

I'm embarrassed for my outburst on this forum, but i'm glad i talked about it anyway. Once i'll have a few days of peace and reflection, I'll read through everything properly.

Thank you all. 

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@geddie212 Hahaha!

(BTW, my sympathies for you being held at knife point. I'm not laughing at that part.)

Anyways, you have a fundamental lack of understanding of survival and God.

God is ALL THINGS! Including fear. Being God doesn't mean you never fear again. It means you realize that whatever is happening is Absolute Truth and you accept it for what it is. Your mistake here is thinking, "Once I'm enlightened I will always feel happy, calm, nice, peaceful." Fuck no! If a lion walks into the room your body will feel terror and you will run. This does not invalidate enlightenment. This is just common sense. God is protecting its avatar.

People have so many silly ideas about enlightenment. So many myths and stories by the superego of moral and proper behavior. All of that is crap. Enlightenment has zero restrictions. You are allowed to feel fear, anger, sadness, craving, etc.

Of course God created fear for a reason, it is absolutely crucial for survival. And survival is not a bad thing. Without survival you can't experience life at all. Nor can you help awaken others.

Also keep in mind, there are many degrees of awakening, and whatever little bit of it you had was tiny. Also don't confuse a few awakenings with mastery. Mastery requires decades of training. You could train yourself not to fear lions or knives, but you haven't even begun that work in earnest.

Contemplate this: why do you judge and demonize fear and anger?

That's your problem right there. You are not practicing Self-Love.

STOP JUDGING EVERYTHING!

STOP JUDGING EVERYTHING!

STOP JUDGING EVERYTHING!

Get it?


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Being God doesn't mean you never fear again.

 

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Your mistake here is thinking, "Once I'm enlightened I will always feel happy, calm, nice, peaceful." Fuck no! If a lion walks into the room your body will feel terror and you will run. This does not invalidate enlightenment. This is just common sense. God is protecting its avatar.

Precisely that

But it does invalidate the whole idea of enlightenment as the end of suffering. I've experienced a horrible, stress-induced major depressive episode with anxiety, which lasted ~14 months while being in a non-dual, no sense of self and agency state. It was easier to bear but it was still tremendous suffering. During that time I've tried so many things and almost nothing worked, the only things that gave me some relief were antidepressants and anti-inflammatory drugs like Ibuprofen. Xanax worked great but it builds tolerance very quickly and you can actually die from the withdrawals, so I was fucked. BTW I've also tried 5-MeO and it did nothing to my depression/anxiety long-term (I mean like 1 day+). Kenneth Folk said that during his episode he was able to temporarily end suffering by going into a Jhana, I was not able to reliably enter Jhanas unfortunately.

Now I have a whole new perspective on why people call cessation of consciousness Nirvana. Even at the peak of my depression, if I only could fall asleep, I would go completely unconscious and it felt amazing. 

 


"Reality is brutal and it does not care about being fair to you."

                                                                                            -- Leo Gura

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LOL. Looks like you went through a newbie-"practicality is bullshit" phase which in itself is bullshit.

EDIT: Also I'm sorta reminded of that one spiritual story involving Prophet Mohammed and the man who wouldn't tie his camel because he "puts his faith in Allah". "Tie your camel and put your faith in Allah" was Mohammed's advice.

Edited by Extreme Z7

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