Leo Gura PUA

[Preety_India]

25 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

Men want sex, women want love - it is pretty easy to understand the differences, and why they cause the issues that they cause.

Unfortunately I have to agree with that. 

Wish the masculine and the feminine were more harmonious. 

 

 

[electroBeam]

2 hours ago, Keyhole said:

@Emerald 

Men want sex, women want love - it is pretty easy to understand the differences, and why they cause the issues that they cause.

No that's wrong. You've just been dating the wrong people. 

https://medium.com/@GoodMenProject/the-one-thing-men-want-more-than-sex-98a801833e39

Guys like oxytocin as much as females, it just takes the right guy, and the right amount of time, to get there.

[Gili Trawangan]

2 hours ago, Keyhole said:

Men want sex, women want love - it is pretty easy to understand the differences, and why they cause the issues that they cause.

This isn't true at all. Seriously, the way we are misunderstanding each other here (I mean both genders) is a bit sad.

[Farnaby]

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Unfortunately I have to agree with that. 

Wish the masculine and the feminine were more harmonious. 

 

 

Nope, this isn't true for all men, let alone on a deep level.

Yes, we like sex, like you do. But what most of us are really seeking is connection and if possible a deep intimate bond, not just physical pleasure. Of course many of us are also scared of this intimacy and when that isn't healed it may appear as if we just want to get laid. Maybe there are men who only want sex, I can only speak for myself so I can't know for sure. However, even my most sex pursuing friends acknowledge that deep down they want connection. Only sex doesn't satisfy us in the long run.

I think @Emerald did a pretty good analysis of what may be happening. Things won't change and easily, but keep encouraging people to integrate their polarities ?

 

[Preety_India]

50 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

No that's wrong. You've just been dating the wrong people. 

https://medium.com/@GoodMenProject/the-one-thing-men-want-more-than-sex-98a801833e39

Guys like oxytocin as much as females, it just takes the right guy, and the right amount of time, to get there.

The right guy is just a phantom. A lot of women get screwed believing that they are with the right guy until this Mr. Right becomes Mr. Wrong. Let's not forget the fact that almost every man who approaches a woman wants to appear like the right guy at least on the first few dates.

 

[Preety_India]

15 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

Nope, this isn't true for all men, let alone on a deep level.

Yes, we like sex, like you do. But what most of us are really seeking is connection and if possible a deep intimate bond, not just physical pleasure. Of course many of us are also scared of this intimacy and when that isn't healed it may appear as if we just want to get laid. Maybe there are men who only want sex, I can only speak for myself so I can't know for sure. However, even my most sex pursuing friends acknowledge that deep down they want connection. Only sex doesn't satisfy us in the long run.

I think @Emerald did a pretty good analysis of what may be happening. Things won't change and easily, but keep encouraging people to integrate their polarities ?

 

A guy on this thread said that women aren't sure of what they want, that women tend to misrepresent themselves. 

So the logical conclusion from your post would be that even men aren't sure of what they really want. Would you agree

 

[Preety_India]

4 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

The article given pretty much says the same thing - they will put on a facade to attract a woman to have sex with . that even if love is what they want, they will still use that woman for sex instead of being upfront - and that they expect these women to be their "safe harbor" and that we should deal with their rage and aggression when they "snap out of their vulnerable state" and into "shame mode", essentially.

That we need to develop a lot of self love and confidence to deal with this.  It's nonsense.  "Oooh, but the payback of a deep bond, though, as long as you do everything just right and be what I need you to be."

(not laughin' at u electro, just the message of the article)

You summed it up. 

More women need to realize this. 

 

[electroBeam]

31 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

A guy on this thread said that women aren't sure of what they want, that women tend to misrepresent themselves. 

So the logical conclusion from your post would be that even men aren't sure of what they really want. Would you agree

 

The problems women  have with men are almost the same problems men have with women. Here's an example:  https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2016/09/13/man-finds-out-missing-wife-is-alive-in-the-worst-way-possible/amp/

@Keyhole Yeah all women seem to consistently interpret the message that way. But all men interpret it a completely different way. Including the one that wrote it. This is just a very obvious example of female vs male bias. It's completely and very clearly off the mark that theres no doubt there is bias lurking in the brains of the ones interpreting it.

Men interpret it more as: Feminism is a solution, not just for women, but for men too. There is a cultural expectation that men must be horny and love sex, more so then a 'safe harbour' or oxytocin, and this causes men to repress their deep need for love, which manifests into neurological and mental disorders. Men don't cry, men don't need love and support, because those things are 'girly' and ooo I don't want to date a girly man, I want a real man, a tough man(Orange stage girls are like this have no idea what you're like).

If women(and men) stopped thinking of men as just people who want sex(in other words, we took a more feminist approach), maybe they would be given the space to fully realize their need for love and intimacy, rather than sex. 

Guys have a lot of stuff suppressed in them because of culture. They have a lot of expectations to do with what a real man is. The patriarchy is affecting men just as much as women, and mental health, suicide and physical assult stats(where all are dominated by men) is clear evidence for it. What if I told you that men are only more violent because of the patriarchy? Sounds far fetched? Let me remind you that gender is a social construct, and even if you still think it's in our DNA, bonobos are very peaceful. Much more than humans.

You get what you wish for, if you think men only care about sex, and you subconsciously let your man know that's what you think in your relationship, guess what? He will probably not admit his need for love in fear of become less of a 'man'

I have in the past, fully surrendered my need to be a man(even if women expect me to be 'a man', I just say 'fuck you' to them. I've got a bit of feminine needs in me and you either deal with it or leave). And in a relationship, I'm fully open and transparent with this need.  Of course most men are waaay to scared to do this, so dont expect your average guy to do it. With this mindset(if the women isn't too stuck up and can tolerate and accept this) the relationship ends up being 100x more loving. 

I'm not saying for you personally, because you've clearly decided the celibacy approach, but for others reading this: if you want a man to not just be about sex, you also need to take a bit of initiative. You need to be ok with him being a bit feminine. If you can't tolerate a man that cries, cares deeply for things like the environment or his family, is vegan, does womanly things sometimes or thinks like a woman on occasions, then youre part of the problem sorry to say.

I know a woman who broke up with a man because he was too 'girly' and was worried he was gay...Sigh.

Find a guy who is ok and in touch with his feminine side(plenty at sweat lodges(the shaman stuff) psychedelic retreats and environmental meetups) and if you dare, fully surrender to it. 

The more the masculine side dominates the man, the more in love the women gets, but the more problems the women gets in the long run. This is why only high consciousness people can date each other, because only high consciousness people are willing to sacrifice, or see through the patriarchy to form a better relationship.

[Farnaby]

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

A guy on this thread said that women aren't sure of what they want, that women tend to misrepresent themselves. 

So the logical conclusion from your post would be that even men aren't sure of what they really want. Would you agree

 

That's a good question. I can only speak for myself. I don't have a lot of experience with one night stands, but when I've had them it was fun but always left me kind of empty.

On the other hand, nothing has made me feel better than a loving relationship, where I can be "completely" myself (at times playful, at times vulnerable, etc.). I tend to think that most people, men and women, are looking for this kind of relationship, but maybe I'm just projecting my preferences. Even the guys in my group of friends who brag about how many women they've slept with, who approach many women, etc., when you have an honest conversation with them it turns out that they would love to have a deeper intimate connection. 

All this "men only want this women only want that" stuff gets in the way of having more authentic relationships IMO. We're all conditioned by culture and our experiences, but we can also let go of that conditioning or at least part of it.

[Danioover9000]

11 hours ago, Johnny5 said:

Okay in that case I misjudged your intention.

 

@Danioover9000 For the record my only intention was to try and shed some light on what's at the root of the phenomenon, not to drag in all of the baggage that comes with turning it into an ideology. I thought I was clear enough about my take on it. So let's not go down that road shall we.

   Ok then. I wanted to point it out for anybody reading. Wasn't my desire to start a debate, sorry if I triggered you.

   I find it's too obvious for me that it's silly peddling black/blue/red pill ideologies. Somehow, people still get charged up and dogmatic over it.

   While I don't know much about anyone's upbringing, personalities and preferences for these ideologies, I'm still learning and open minded to them. Exploring and experimenting.

   If you don't mind, could you share what brought you to your understanding of red pill?

   Thanks for reading.

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, Keyhole said:

@Emerald Good luck trying to change the perceptions of others for the better, you're going to need it.  That's a massive project, with a lot of blades you'll be getting swung at you.
In my opinion, it seems like a lot of work for a gender that doesn't really show that they're worth the effort.
I'll integrate for myself.  I'l never be dependent on or victimized by a man again.

I think the best thing for both genders to do is to leave one another alone.

Men want sex, women want love - it is pretty easy to understand the differences, and why they cause the issues that they cause.

 

8 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Unfortunately I have to agree with that. 

Wish the masculine and the feminine were more harmonious. 

That's actually not true. I've never been in a relationship where the guy didn't love me back or where there was some lack of emotional reciprocity. 

But I can tell you why it seems that way.

Most men don't have an integrated Feminine side, and because of this they end up incapable of opening their hearts. They fear vulnerability too much. And the obsessive sex drive is a direct result of this Feminine disintegration... because they crave the love of a woman (the woman inside themselves) so much. 

But this translates in the external to being hyper obsessed with women and their sexuality as they are projecting the disintegrated Anima that they both worship and revile.

But energetically speaking, men and women work differently in terms of how the libidinal energy flows. Women's flows from the top down and men's from the bottom up.

So, women's sexual energy begins in the mind, travels to the heart, and then eventually reaches the sexual center. Men's energy starts in the sexual center, travels to the heart, and eventually reaches the mind.

Now, the challenge here for men is that the sexual center has the most gravity to it. So, it takes a well-developed man to transmute baser sexual impulses to love and devotion. So, if a guy is immature or if he has beliefs that tell him that he should never love a woman or be vulnerable, then the energy will just stagnate in the sexual center... and his life will be noting more than a lonely bender of chasing tail.

So, if you want to attract a man who is both capable of loving and prefers pair-bonding, you must first deal with your own internal barriers and Animus possession. When you do this, you will naturally attract and be attracted to more mature men.

You must be the one to attract the one... even though there is no "one".

 

[Preety_India]

22 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, if you want to attract a man who is both capable of loving and prefers pair-bonding, you must first deal with your own internal barriers and Animus possession. When you do this, you will naturally attract and be attracted to more mature men.

Can you elaborate on the internal barriers and Animus possession that interferes with attracting a more matured male. 

What are these internal barriers and how do they impact. 

Also what are the ways of attracting matured men ?

 

 

 

[Preety_India]

10 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

No worries, it wasn't about triggering me, it was about avoiding the kind of polarized dogmatism that Leo is trying to keep his forum free of. Also for any fruitful discussion I can't allow myself to be put in that kind of a corner.

About my understanding of red pill, first of all it's not an ideology to me, even though it is for many. I would rather use a different phrase just to avoid all that baggage, but then nobody would know wtf I'm talking about.

I don't consider myself red pill or mgtow or anything like that. I probably fit some of those descriptions to an extent (and so does Leo), but I'm not with any group, I don't take sides, I have no stake in the game. Groups of people are groups of people and you will find all of the same issues arise in any of them. So I don't really distinguish between them. That's why I reject being painted with the same brush. I'm more about the individual, no matter what banner he/she/whatever sails under.

 

For me the phrase red pill, in the current context, means one thing and one thing alone: You have realized the folly of pandering to the opposite sex to your own detriment.

Which means:

1 - Your life no longer revolves around gaining their approval (and this also goes a long way toward becoming independent of other people's approval in general).

2 - Instead, you set your own independent course and goals in life no matter what anyone else thinks about it (this turns out to be a natural result of #1 as it turns out that most people's lives DO in fact revolve around approval - that's basic ego survival 101 and it's also the basic glue that keeps societies together, which is why true independence is rare and generally not tolerated).

 

To me that spells red pill. And to me that also spells self-actualization, or at least the beginnings of it. This is why some of the things Leo says on this topic triggers women. This is what Leo actually has in common with red pill. Basically it means becoming psychologically independent, which is a cornerstone of psychological maturity. Which necessarily means having shedded some pretty deep layers of ego.

When men are being told to "be men", the real message is not to act like an insensitive asshole, but to grow up into their potential as men. Other ways of putting this is to grow a spine, grow a pair of balls, man up, etc. The reason why it's generally misunderstood is because most "adult" people are actually still children. It's only misunderstood by children, no true adult will have any trouble understanding the difference. But most people never develop into true adulthood. And given the historical role of men in society, they were the ones most required to grow up. So that's how you get the association between growing up and manning up. Although I should add that true adulthood goes way beyond this.

For some reason it seems especially difficult for women to make this distinction (unless they are themselves grown up which is also rare). A truly grown up man in this sense will not be slave to her fickle moods and demands, and has different considerations than she does. And he will also have shed massive loads of emotional baggage (i.e. ego). All of which will make him look like an insensitive asshole to her eyes, or like he hasn't "integrated his feminine side", things like that. Often that's very true, because often we're not dealing with true adults. But it's not true when you're dealing with a truly grown up person (of any gender).

I'm not sure that PUA is generally considered red pill, because it can be seen as pandering to women's approval and even as making that your life purpose. But looking at the example of Meetjoeblack, it's pretty obvious that he meets both criteria I mentioned. He is clearly not after women's approval (or anyone else's), just sex (as any hetero man will be). And he is clearly not letting his course in life be determined by other people's opinions, in fact he literally said that if he goes "no contact" with a woman it's because he is on his purpose. In other words his purpose does not revolve around their approval. That again spells red pill to me. So this is why I consider him lightyears ahead of any panderer. There's really no way around it, whether you like it or not.

You act like the other side of the coin just doesn't exist. This would be similar to me saying that I'm light years ahead if I get a man to fulfill my own needs and get what I want without needing to seek his approval or even validating his existence. Aha, I will be smart doing that !!

Actually no. One cannot be without the other. What If a woman is not happy,then you will try to just remove her from the equation and replace another woman. This strategy is not long term and is bound to fail because obviously you won't look like a panderer but you will turn into a wanderer lol 

 

You can do all you want but if a woman is not happy there's no fixed remedy. You can't feel warm without the fire. 

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You're completely minusing woman. You obliterated her existence in your equation of gratification. 

Try it. If it works for you good, but I see a massive lacuna in your thinking and strategy. 

 

[Preety_India]

35 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

You see the content: "Guy just wants to bang chicks with no concern for their feelings." I see the structure/pattern: "Guy becomes self-determined in the face of society's rejection." The latter is what almost nobody ever does, but it's all that interests me about this whole thing.

Are women sex toys ?

 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Etherial Cat said:

Is this valid also for men with a feminine core and vice versa?

No, there are exceptions and there are never any black and whites because masculinity and femininity are poles on a single spectrum... and in that sense there is no true distinction. So, what I shared is a very general rule. It will fit most people... but a significant number of people will diverge from that, which is normal.

Someone who is more masculine than feminine in how their energetic signature crosses over the sexual instinct will generally have an upward moving relationship to their sexuality... regardless of gender or identification. And vice versa.

And as with the Yin and Yang symbol, everything always contains both. So, no one's sex drive is only masculine or only feminine. So, even if you take someone with the most masculine sexual baseline, there will still be some of their energy flowing downward and not upward. And again... vice versa.

So, there are tons of nuances to where everyone's sexual energy flows in unique ways... which is why I call it an energetic signature. But a general rule of thumb is that men's sexual energy tends to flow upward and women's sexual energy tends to flow downward. And in Tantric practices two partners can cycle this energy... The man penetrating the woman upward through the sexual center and the woman penetrating the man downward through the mind. 

 

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Can you elaborate on the internal barriers and Animus possession that interferes with attracting a more matured male. 

What are these internal barriers and how do they impact. 

Also what are the ways of attracting matured men ?

The Animus possesses the identity when a woman either has not developed their masculine side or resists against masculinity (which can come from negative experiences with men or simply being instilled with exaggerated beliefs about gender). 

With an integrated masculine side a woman can set boundaries, have emotional mastery, communicate clearly her perspective, and has developed her sense of self-preservation and independence. So, she has access to all the positive qualities of the masculine principle. 

A woman with a disintegrated masculine side will often feel over-whelmed, unsure of herself, and unsafe... especially when interacting with men who feel like a threat because of the disintegration. This is why the Animus comes in to possess. It's a protector but it does so in unhealthy ways in its disintegrated form.

So, the disintegrated Animus is over-protective, harsh, and disempowering. It sees the feminine as weak and seeks to dominate the personality to avoid being seen as weak. 

So, there is often a yo-yo effect with women who have disintegrated Animus... they go from very vulnerable and vague in the non-possessed form or they go on heavy defense in the possessive form of the Animus.

And women who have disintegrated or underdeveloped Animus will attract and be attracted to men who have a disintegrated or underdeveloped Anima. And they attract each other like the north and south poles of a magnet.

 

[Preety_India]

50 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

No.

And sex to me is actually something very innocent. It's only the child ego that turns it into a battlefield and a topic of shame blame and guilt. None of that is there for me. And if none of that is there for a woman, then I'd love to be her sex toy if she'd love to be mine. Nothing wrong with enjoying eachother.

Nothing wrong with it even imo. I'll just call it casual sex not even pua. Don't know why the fuss over just casual sex. I'm completely okay with casual sex, I don't see any issues with that. Obviously there is no shame or guilt with that. But you said before was a bit contradictory than what you are saying now. 

You mentioned "banging with no concerns for their feelings," well, to me that's not casual sex, more like manipulating someone for one's needs. When you say that you want to be someone's sex toy, you gotta be pretty open and clear about it to with the person you're going to sleep with. Only then it's really innocent. Not really innocent if you completely disregard the other's person's frame of mind which will obviously hurt the woman long term. To me that's not exactly the idea of enjoying each other, maybe the woman is enjoying sex in the moment but that's because she is unaware of the deception being used to get there. 

 

 

 

[Preety_India]

10 minutes ago, Johnny5 said:

 

But yes I understand what you're saying. Still, don't kid yourself, women are no better than men in any of this. Different perhaps, but just as conniving and ruthless and devilish. It's simply how nature evolved. There are reasons why it has to be the way it is. That's what ultimately makes you see the innocence of it.

Stop blaming men.

You're funny lol. Your dissonance is major. I never blamed men.  I just said that in casual sex or whatever sex one has to be clear about what they want and not try to deceive the other person by creating illusions. What I mean is not play with someone's emotions and desires. That's not blaming men but targeting a mentality that assumes that deception is to be integrated into the game. Not really fair. 

But you can always go with the line " everything is fair in love and sex" 

But personally if you ask me, I would prefer authenticity and honesty over all else. 

What appears as victory to one is a defeat to another. Losing by being honest is a victory in my eyes whereas winning by deception is equivalent to defeat. 

Not saying that you are doing this because you explicitly mentioned that you don't. But saying that this is generally a theme in those circles. 

 

[Leo Gura]

I think it's time to lock this one down. It is turning into a distraction for the ego-mind.

I wish you guys were more conscious of how your mind creates these distractions from contemplating your self-biases.