Closing in Game

[electroBeam]

13 hours ago, see_on_see said:

Why are you posting such garbage? This is full-on stage Orange RSD paradigm. It's totally misleading. 

We need Green dating advice, not this. 

And no, there's no need to learn such twisted mindsets and ridiculously manipulative behaviours to then evolve into more conscious behaviour. It's unnecessary. 

+1 man! This paradigm of getting into women's panties is limited. You're not gonna get satisfaction though that. Satisfaction comes from very deep, meaningful personal experiences with people, not just fucking like an ape at anything that moves. How is that fulfilling? Bunch of sexual moves with someone you don't know well.

[whoareyou]

22 hours ago, see_on_see said:

Why are you posting such garbage? This is full-on stage Orange RSD paradigm. It's totally misleading. 

We need Green dating advice, not this. 

And no, there's no need to learn such twisted mindsets and ridiculously manipulative behaviours to then evolve into more conscious behaviour. It's unnecessary. 

You have to meet the people where they are at. 

OP's question was "How to close?". He made it very clear what his goal/intent was and LEO could not have given him a better answer.

The same can be said to you - why are you posting such garbage? Garbage here is very relative term - because for this person, the advice that LEO has given is gold.

Also, can you tell me how isolating a girl, leading her, and figuring out logistics is automatically manipulating? Do you have any idea of how social dynamics work? 

Your interpretation of the advice LEO has posted - as in you are trying to trick a girl into liking you, which can't be further from the truth.

You may connect with a woman, and she may be very interested in you - but if you fuck up the logistics, and you don't know how to deal with her cock blocking friends, the interaction may go nowhere, that is just the reality. A lot of guys don't know these basic things, so it is very beneficial for them to hear it.

@Serotoninluv

You usually love to educate people about structure vs content, and to point out how others see things through limited lenses. 

This time I will point out to you, how you are too immersed in your "green dating" paradigm, and that you are unable to see other perspectives for what they are - without your filter. In fact, you (and others here who are "speaking out") are interpreting LEO's entire answer from only your green paradigm - making it sound what he said 100x worse than it actually is. 

I would even add, that many of you are too caught up in spiral dynamics, and see majority of things only from the perspective of SP, which is very, very limiting in itself.

TA-DA!

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by whoareyou

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, whoareyou said:

 

@Serotoninluv

You usually love to educate people about structure vs content, and to point out how others see things through limited lenses. 

This time I will point out to you, how you are too immersed in your "green dating" paradigm, and that you are unable to see other perspectives for what they are - without your filter. In fact, you (and others here who are "speaking out") are interpreting LEO's entire answer from only your green paradigm - making it sound what he said 100x worse than it actually is. 

Thank you for these comments. It gives me an opportunity to address a few other points in evolving consciousness.

I'm fine I've explaining things outside of SD theory. SD theory offers a very good structural framework for evolution and growth. It can provide a sense of grounding. However, all relativistic models will have some form of hierarchy. That is a core component: relative value. And this discussion is within a relative context.

Seeing and experiencing through different lenses is a fundamental trait of growth and expansion. We can create conceptual models that can be helpful, yet direct experience is king. We can create a conceptual models of racism, misogyny, gender, feminism etc. These conceptual models can be helpful, yet they are not the direct experience of racism, misogyny, gender etc. Ime, there is no substitute for the direct experience. It is king. 

Theorizing in one's mind is insufficient for deep understanding. One must do their research and experiment. One must put themselves in situations that offer direct experience realizations. I have done extensive "research" in this area and I have worn many different lenses. I am not regurgitating and parroting things I read in SD. What I write is based on 30 years of actual experience in this area. The experience of actually being in a wide variety of relationships. The experience of doing hundreds of hours of introspective work. The experience of being harmed and causing harm to others. The experience of deep contemplation and discussions with others.

Another way to say "seeing through another lens" is "knowing what it's like". The phrase "seeing through another lens" has suggests an intellectual understanding and what I am pointing to is much deeper and expansive than a simple intellectual understanding. So I will frame this as "knowing what it's like".

I am a male and I know what it's like to have an orientation of seeking sex. I know what it's like to be filled with testosterone and to be pre-occupied with sex throughout the day. I know what it's like to be sexually frustrated, to desire sex and a gf. I know what it's like to go years without sex - there is an essence of direct experience to this one cannot intellectualize. Yet it goes deeper. I played this game. I know what its like to manipulate women for reluctant sex and I know what its like to have sex with women without manipulation and mutual consent.  When these realization are revealed direct experience, integrated and embodied - it is easy to spot because both "knowing what it's likes" are revealed. What was expressed in the thread is a form of manipulation and objectification of a woman toward fulfilling a self-centered need without regard of the woman. This is a low conscious mentality - it doesn't matter if we call in some SD color. I couldn't care less. What I care about is the dynamic. Objectification and manipulation to satisfy a self-centered need with a disregard of the impact of another is a low conscious dynamic that has many forms and degrees. It can be manipulation of another for self-centered money, sex or power - with disregard on the impact on another. Degree is another issue. Your position is that the strength of my response is 100X too strong for the input. I disagree. I intentionally gave a strong response because men immersed in a manipulation for sex dynamic need a strong stimulus for realizations. Again, I know this from direct experience. This is not something I read in SD or in some textbook. 

You perceive this as 100x overblown. Again, I know what it's like to perceive what I write as being 100x overblown. I've lived with a form of this mentality for many years. . . One key that reveals this is how the women responded. Your interpretation was that I overblew this 100X. The women's perspective was that I was spot on. . . This is a key point: you are unable to see the "spot on" perspective. This is a much more difficult understanding because it cannot simply be understood intellectually. One cannot simply say "Yea, yea. I can see the perspective of those women". It goes much much deeper than that.

Everything I wrote above is still at a relatively surface level. The next level is transcending that self-centered orientation that disregards the impact on others. It doesn't matter if we call it SD levels, stages or levels. Getting caught up on SD can be a form of distraction from deeper understanding. the transcendence I am about to explain has many many forms of resistance. One is the desire for personal survival and seeking ones self-centered needs. All sorts of thought dynamics can arise such as "Well, women are manipulative too", "Manipulation is just part of Game, everyone knows whats going on", "she made the decision to have sex with me and needs to take responsibility for that", "you are overblowing the severity, it's not that big a deal", "I didn't cause harm to her, she wanted it", "It's not really manipulation, its just part of the dating game", "you are one of those green guys and don't understand". "Why should I stop manipulating if women get to manipulate me? If they do it, so can I" - These are all forms mental avoidance and justification. I've worked through all of them over years and years. These dynamics prevent growth to deeper levels.

The deeper levels is an awareness of intention and impact. Impact is a key here and this understanding is gained primarily through direct experience. I know what its like to manipulate and mislead a woman into reluctant sex. I know what its like to finish and want to get the hell out of there. I know the negative impact the manipulation caused her. I know what it is like to use a woman for sex and I know what the impact is. I have seen it and experienced it in direct experience. I've seen what I did to her through an empathetic understanding. During consciousness evolution, there is an energetic shift of seeking self-centered desires at the expense to others toward seeing and understanding the impact on others. I've had seen it in their eyes - their mind and body. There is an essence of toxic energy. There is an essence in the beingness, I have been told by women exactly what the impact was. I have had numerous conversations with women about the impact. As well, I have also been manipulated, misled and lied to. A few women have misled me to believe in a lie. I know what its like to believe the lie and emotionally invest. I know what it's like to be manipulated, used and discarded. These forms of knowing are not simply intellectual. To realize, integrate and embody this to deep levels of holistic understanding requires working through many self biases and blocks to overcome.

Further, I am not suggesting that sexual flings and one-night stands are low conscious. I've experience both low conscious and high conscious short-term flings. That is not the low conscious part. The low conscious part is an energetic orientation. A moderately low conscious example would be two people having transactional sex. There is mutual chemistry and physical attraction. Both people are oriented toward fulfilling their self-centered needs. There is "my" needs and "her" needs. There is mutual understanding of the situation, intentions and expectations. Both people are into it. . . A lower form of consciousness (expressed earlier in this thread) is manipulating a reluctant person toward sex through various forms of deceit. Without the reluctance, the manipulation is not necessary. The second component is seeing the person as an object and disregarding their welfare. . .

There are many higher states of consciousness for sexuality that blow away transactional sex, manipulative sex and sex with a reluctant partner.  

[whoareyou]

@Etherial Cat  That is your own projection! Who said that it can't be win-win? "Cock blocking friends" is not even a PUA term, it is used very widely in the mainstream in general. You are being too attached to the terminology here, without even understanding what exactly the specific terms mean here.

Everything that LEO has mentioned can be a win-win. 

If you stop projecting, and reading it only from your limited lens - you will see it for what it is.

You can be genuine, authentic, and still do what LEO has mentioned here - these things are not exclusive!

At the end of the day, these are just tools, and it is up to people on what to do with them.

[electroBeam]

3 hours ago, whoareyou said:

Also, can you tell me how isolating a girl, leading her, and figuring out logistics is automatically manipulating? Do you have any idea of how social dynamics work? 

Do you need to put significant time and money into the logistics of having a deep and meaningful conversation with your mum? When you're out with your best friends from childhood, do you need to isolate them to get their attention and talk about meaningful stuff that they are engaged with? Do you need to lead your children to have a meaningful conversation with them?

Why can't you try to connect with women with the same level of depth of family and best friends, instead of acting like an ape? When you cold approach, actually do it out of divine love and respect for the You that you are. Do it with a drive to seriously want to see her grow, where a relationship with her is a means to help her grow. Do it with helping her heal, helping her get better. I've done cold approaches and this mindset is always more successful then trying to replicate the PUA shit you read on this forum and the internet. 

Life isn't about sex, and it's not about objectifying women(which you definitely are doing). You're not going to be fulfilled just trying to have sex with women. 

You're going to be fulfilled by having very deep, meaningful relationships with women. And sex is 1000x better when you have it with someone you deeply love, rather than some stranger you just picked because of her large breasts. 

Have some unconditional Love(capital L) for the girls you're trying to connect with. That's what girls appreciate(well the good ones at least, the shit ones are too busy being gold diggers or trying to find a guy to hide their social status insecurities)

[whoareyou]

@Serotoninluv  You are more lost than I think you actually were. 

There really is no need for deep analysis here, as this is not what is being discussed here.  Instead of addressing the simple point that I made, you created an unnecessary long essay.

You are over-complicating it buddy. 

It's very simple - you got to meet people where they are at. And it is up to them what to do with the advice given. 

OP did not ask for the advice on what to do with women, or on how to connect with them, he asked on how to CLOSE.

Closing is a very important part that many of the new guys struggle. If you never went through the struggle, you will never understand it.

Before you judge through your limited ideological paradigm - try to look at a different perspective as I mentioned.

Edited January 24, 2020 by whoareyou

[whoareyou]

5 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Do you need to put significant time and money into the logistics of having a deep and meaningful conversation with your mum? When you're out with your best friends from childhood, do you need to isolate them to get their attention and talk about meaningful stuff that they are engaged with? Do you need to lead your children to have a meaningful conversation with them?

Why can't you try to connect with women with the same level of depth of family and best friends, instead of acting like an ape? When you cold approach, actually do it out of divine love and respect for the You that you are. Do it with a drive to seriously want to see her grow, where a relationship with her is a means to help her grow. Do it with helping her heal, helping her get better. I've done cold approaches and this mindset is always more successful then trying to replicate the PUA shit you read on this forum and the internet. 

Life isn't about sex, and it's not about objectifying women(which you definitely are doing). You're not going to be fulfilled just trying to have sex with women. 

You're going to be fulfilled by having very deep, meaningful relationships with women. And sex is 1000x better when you have it with someone you deeply love, rather than some stranger you just picked because of her large breasts. 

Have some unconditional Love(capital L) for the girls you're trying to connect with. That's what girls appreciate(well the good ones at least, the shit ones are too busy being gold diggers or trying to find a guy to hide their social status insecurities)

LOL, i am actually laughing.

Where did I say that sex is the most important, or that you shouldn't connect with women more deeply?

Watch your projection, and self bias here - you have very negative associations with anything "PUA" related.

There is time and place for everything in life. And you got to meet the people where they are at. If a guy wants to learn how to "close", you should give him advice on exactly how to do it. And it is up to them on "how" they want to go about it.

If you give him your "green dating" advice, it will be counter intuitive for OP.

[Harikrishnan]

22 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

 

Have some unconditional Love(capital L) for the girls you're trying to connect with. That's what girls appreciate(well the good ones at least, the shit ones are too busy being gold diggers or trying to find a guy to hide their social status insecurities)

Green Please have some unconditional Love (capital L) for gold diggers and one trying to find a guy to hide their social status insecurities. ? 

[Spiral]

If you are charming enough you won’t need to close. They’ll want to close you. Positivity and life-satisfaction are key here. 

Key mindsets.

1. Make sure you are going out to have fun. (Not to get girls etc).
2. Make sure you are in a good mood when you go out.
3. When you get to your destination, don’t take yourself too seriously. 

Goofing around gets you incredibly far. Doing large, silly dances on the dance-floor for instance. Not only because you are having fun, but also because people want to hang out with you because you seem fun to hang out with.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Spiral

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, whoareyou said:

@Serotoninluv  

There really is no need for deep analysis here, as this is not what is being discussed here.  Instead of addressing the simple point that I made, you created an unnecessary long essay.

You are over-complicating it buddy. 

From one perspective, it seems over-complicated. I know the perspective of "why don't you just keep it simple? You are over-complicating".

This is another block to deeper, more expansive understanding. I don't need to keep it to a contracted simple view. You already have that down. You are an expert in this simple contracted view. This is not where the growth is. If a person wants to grow and expand, they will need to let go of their contracted state and expand. To a mind that has not had direct experience, integration and embodimnet - nuances will seem "over-complicated". This can keep a mind in a contracted state.

2 hours ago, whoareyou said:

@Serotoninluv  

It's very simple - you got to meet people where they are at. And it is up to them what to do with the advice given. 

No it's not so simple. If someone comes to me and asks me how to rape a woman without getting caught, I don't meet them at their level. If we are dealing with a low conscious state that negatively impacts others, we don't give advice to the person to re-enforce the unhealthy behavior. This is called enabling and it too is a low conscious state.

"Meeting someone where that are at" means giving someone healthy advise for the stage they are at. In this case, healthier advice would be how to develop a mutually transactional sexual experience - not a guide on how to manipulate reluctant women into sex. 

2 hours ago, whoareyou said:

There is time and place for everything in life. And you got to meet the people where they are at. If a guy wants to learn how to "close", you should give him advice on exactly how to do it. And it is up to them on "how" they want to go about it.

No you "should" not give someone advice on how to objectify and manipulate reluctant women into sex to fulfill one's selfish desires at the expense of another. That is enabling unhealthy behavior. Rather, it is better to be a man of integrity and lead by example.

"Meeting someone at their level" can be used as an excuse to minimize, dismiss and enable unhealthy behavior.

2 hours ago, whoareyou said:

@Etherial Cat  

Everything that LEO has mentioned can be a win-win. 

This is the source of the block to deeper understanding. You are seeing this through a filter of men that are willing to manipulate reluctant women to satisfy their selfish needs with no concern of impact. That is "win-win" from the perspective of the male. It is a justification for low conscious behavior. It is actually a "win" situation for the male - the second half does not matter. For a male with this orientation, "win-lose", "win-neutral" and "win-win" all look similar because the male is contracted into the first "win" for me. The male is assuming it is "win" for the woman because he is disregarding the welfare of the woman. This is the key to growth and expansion is to see the other side of the equation. To see, feel and understand the impact and experience of the woman. This is a big step in consciousness: to go from self-centered "me win" with no regard for the woman to understanding impact on others when the male seeks a "win".

At it's most basic level, "win-win" would be a transactional sexual experience in which the male is seeking his own needs and the woman is seeking her own needs and there is a transactional interaction of sex. They both understand intentions and there is mutual desire and consent. This dynamic does not require manipulation of the woman. The dynamic in this thread is a conscious level lower than transactional "win-win" sex. In this dynamic, there is objectifying manipulation of a reluctant woman toward sex - with no regard for the welfare of the woman. This is a different orientation and energetics than transactional "win-win". I've experienced both of these dynamics.

Using a "win-win" mentality allows a man to avoid looking at the impact of his behavior and enables him to continue low conscious behavior that can negatively impact others. 

2 hours ago, whoareyou said:

try to look at a different perspective as I mentioned.

I don't need to "try" and understand the perspective you mentioned, because I have extensive direct experience of that perspective.  I know the perspective expressed early in this thread, because I lived that perspective.  I was that guy and held that perspective for many years,. I know what its like. 

There are a variety of defenses to avoid looking at one's own behavior - many of which you have already used: "You are overcomplicating", "It is win-win", "Meet people where they are at", "you are making it 100X worse than it already is", "you are locked into one perspective and can't see my perspective". These are all mechanisms to minimize, dismiss and avoid looking at one's own behavior, realizing the impact their behavior has on another and understanding the impact on another: empathically, emotionally and intellectually. You haven't shown any understanding regarding impact and the experience of the woman after being manipulated into reluctant sex. If you had this understanding you would not be speaking like you are. 

Thinking in terms of who understands what perspective / lens can be counter-productive at higher conscious levels because it can keep a mind contracted within intellectual concepts. A deeper question is "Do I know what it's like?" because these is broader than intellect and involves direct experience. For example, we could ask the question "Do I know what it's like to be a male seeking sex and wanting to close on a woman?". I'm very comfortable saying "Yes" I know what this is like, because I am a male that had this orientation for many years. And it seems like you also know what this is like. The other key question is "Do I know what it's like to be a reluctant woman that was manipulated into having sex and then carried the impact of that". To me, you don't know what its like and I would bet money that women that actually know what its like would agree that you don't know. . . For me, I've never been a woman in this situation so I don't have 100% direct experience, however I put a lot of effort into learning and understanding what its like. I've been a guy that manipulated reluctant women for sex. I saw the impact of that. Women told me the impact and I listened. I've had many conversations with women what the impact is like. I've asked asked women what it's like and listened. I've spent time contemplating and imagining what its like. I've experienced being manipulated, used and discarded. I've asked women to help me verify if this is what its like. Taken together, I think I have a pretty good idea what it's like. Based on all this, my impression is that you are no idea what it's like. You may respond with things like "You are overcomplicating" or "Well, you don't understand my perspective or this other perspective". Thats fine, you can go that route. Yet it will not get you one inch closer to understanding what its like for a woman and expanding in this area. Yet you don't seem interested in this, so it may not matter. Yet other men on the forum may be interested in raising their consciousness with women and I hope parts of this thread will be helpful to them. 

 

[DrewNows]

@Serotoninluv I think there’s nothing wrong with making people question themselves but pointing the finger or judging isn’t going to serve anyone. Manipulation can have good and bad connotations, and it becomes quite tricky when working with people who don’t know who they are or what sort of potential they hold as I’m sure Leo has discovered through coaching.
Life’s definitely not “as random”as we’d like to think and everything that happens, well, happens with the potential for love to come out of it. 
I commend your efforts of reason to expand on the simplicity, but it doesn’t seem necessary to me as people won’t listen to whatever they aren’t ready/willing to hear 

Perhaps there’s shadow work to be had here

This thread is quite the ? read for me and the reluctance to participate has has been sustained by a fear, the inability to articulate and express with clarity, and falsely assuming I can even completely fathom the complexity lol

@whoareyouhas done a mighty job here imo 

[ravlondon]

Hi,

Thanks for the helpful replies. 

Firstly, I don't think most people need to learn 'pickup' and it's probably for them to find a romantic partner socially. My brother found a deep and supporting intimate relationship this way.

I decided to take the trial and error method from pickup as a way to systematically desensitise my way into becoming good with women.

Furthermore, I detest RSD because they are willing to sacrifice the self esteem of their viewers and seem to be in it for money nowadays. After re-watching some of their old videos I critically analysed their content and found it to be logically and epistemological incorrect. The members were also extremely racist in the past which I feel strongly about.

My childhood contained a lot of verbal abuse and through pickup I gained validation and positive reference experiences that have helped me move forward with my life and feel optimistic that I will find someone in the future that I would be attracted to. The failures taught me how not to behave.

Nowadays I can converse openly with women that I meet and have a better understanding of social cues. 

Learning to close is important, after you learn the behavioural fundamentals that you failed to learn developmentally you can add your honest and authentic personality around that.

Thanks

[whoareyou]

@Serotoninluv  Again, you continue to write a bunch of irrelevant stuff and miss my simple point.

It's actually very simple and it's not so black and white. Leo did not mention manipulation or any "unhealthy" behavior in his advice. This is something that you projected due to your past experiences.

You can learn to close, and still be genuine/authentic guy who connects, they are not mutually exclusive.

No where did LEO or anyone here advocated to raping money - you are spinning it here as much as the MSM usually does.

For the men who are struggling in dating, learning to close is a very important fundamental to learn. 

Ravlondon is a good example I think.

[Forestluv]

@DrewNows

Ime, understanding how our behavior impacts others is an important process of consciousness work and personal development. 

26 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

Manipulation can have good and bad connotations

I agree. Context is important. Here is the context of how I am using the term "manipulation".

1. There is a desire to have sex with a woman.

2. The woman is reluctant to have sex with the man.

3. The man attempts to persuade the woman to have sex with tactics that are not transparent.

4. The man is not concerned with the impact his behavior has on the woman. He is only concerned with achieving his self-centered desire for sex.

Two of the key points is that the woman is reluctant. If there is no reluctance, the desire for sex is mutual and "compliance", "closing" etc. in not an issue. The two people are on the same page and they are working together to find a time and place to have sex. No manipulation is needed. The other key point is the lack of concern on the impact of manipulating a reluctant woman. 

From the perspective of the man, this manipulation has a good connotation. The man gets the sex he wants and the impact on the woman is irrelevant. From the perspective of the woman, the manipulation could be "good", "bad" or "neutral". This is a jump up in consciousness. A lower conscious man will not care about impact and does not understand or empathize with potential impact. 

[Derek White]

Can’t wait for robot sex dolls so that men don’t have to rely on women . But I’m sure women will have a problem with that too.

Personally I have no desire to emotionally connect with anyone. If wanting sex is being an ape, then wanting emotional support/validation is being a baby. I don’t even have sexual desires, I find I’m becoming asexual day by day.

I hope one day men become completely independent and women can get a sense of how men feel.
 

@Anna1 Men are in love with your body and you are in love with his personality. There is nothing disgusting about it. Society doesn’t care about men’s desires.

If women don’t care about sex then why don’t they just hang out with their girlfriends? If you expect something from men then they expect something back too, just like in any relationship.

[whoareyou]

@Serotoninluv

It can absolutely be a win - win, even from the perspective of a woman, it really depends on a guy.

Here are 2 examples:

1) A genuinely good, but very shy guy, - who the girl otherwise would have great time with, is unable to close (including exchanging contacts). He is too nervious, and unsure of himself - so everyone loses.

2) That same guy actually learns how to close, has that fundamental down, and then will have no trouble connecting with women. Everyone wins , so it's a win-win scenario.

Closing is an important fundamental for the struggling men to learn. Until you have had that experience yourself, and until you gone through it, you won't be able to understand or to relate to it.

A scientist can create something that is very useful and a scientist can also create something very harmful (atom bomb for example). The science is a just a tool, it is up to the scientist on what to do with his knowledge.

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

@Serotoninluv  Again, you continue to write a bunch of irrelevant stuff and miss my simple point.

It's actually very simple and it's not so black and white. Leo did not mention manipulation or any "unhealthy" behavior in his advice. This is something that you projected due to your past experiences.

As I defined above it is manipulation because it is an effort to persuade a reluctant woman into sex, with non-transparent tactics. If the woman was not reluctant, things like "compliance" and "closure" would not be necessary. To me that is a key ingredient. And what was written early in the thread absolutely talked about tactics to get a reluctant woman to sex.

I would say this has an unhealthy aspect to it. The other unhealthy aspect is lack of concern for impact. The orientation early in the thread is to persuade a reluctant woman to have sex with no regard for its impact on her. The impact could be positive, negative or neutral - yet it does not matter to the male with this orientation. He is hyper focused on achieving his own self-centered needs.

The term "unhealthy" is relative to each person. To a male with this orientation, he may consider it "healthy". However, when both the male and female dynamics are considered, I would say it is an unhealthy orientation. You may disagree and that is fine if you want to hold the view that it is ok if you want to believe it is healthy for a guy to behave in this manner. 

My view has been shaped by my direct experience, yet also speaking with many men, women, psychologists etc. It is not something simply projected by a past experience. Imo, to dismiss it as such is another avoidance technique to not look at one's behavior and impact. Again, you may disagree with me and that is your prerogative.

12 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

You can learn to close, and still be genuine/authentic guy who connects, they are not mutually exclusive.

. This is a recontextualization. This was not the original context. The question of "How can I close in a way that is genuine/authentic and has connection with the woman" is a very different contextualization. You have added in qualifiers that recontextualize. 

 

[Forestluv]

20 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

@Serotoninluv

It can absolutely be a win - win, even from the perspective of a woman, it really depends on a guy.

 

This is another recontextualization. I did not  say it cannot be "win-win". What I said is that it is a "win" for the male and can be "win, lose or draw" for the female. The unhealthy point is the disregard for the woman and the impact on her. In the original context, the male doesn't care if it is win, lose or draw for her. 

Framing the question as "How can I close on a woman in a way that I ensure it is a win-win for both of us?". This orientation is a conscious level higher. However, that was not the orientation of the original framing. 

The critical point is not on the "closing". The two issues is that the woman is reluctant and the disregard for her welfare. If you add in qualifiers about how we are sensitive to her reluctance, want genuine consent and want it to be a positive experience for her - it recontextualizes the original framing. 

[Derek White]

28 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

As I defined above it is manipulation because it is an effort to persuade a reluctant woman into sex, with non-transparent tactics.

Obviously the tactics are non transparent. Men can’t just walk up to women and say “hey will you have sex with me?”

Conversely women can’t just walk up to men and say “hey can I lean on you emotionally?”

What Leo is talking about is conversation skills. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Derek White

[Derek White]

@Etherial Cat It’s called a game because relations are a game of give and takes. Relationships are business transactions sprinkled in with emotions.