Pseudoscience in Spirituality, Sadhguru

[Derek White]

Take a look at this video and tell what you think. Sadhguru is saying that the offsprings carry the genetic memory of their ancestors which helps them perform the jobs their ancestors did. Casteism is a huge problem in India. This argument is used by casteists and racists to justify social immobility, institutionalize oppression and superiority of one group over the other. Basically saying some people are born to carry shit while others are born scholars and monarchs. 

He has said unscientific things before, but these claims are not backed by science or anything resembling science. This seems to be an incoherent rambling of a drunk man. The beginning and they ending are sugar coated to appear reasonable, but the rest of the video is quite absurd. He seems more more like an ultra conservative who believes thousands of years ago India was a utopian society, far ahead in technology than today, and that Indian culture is superior. This makes me highly suspicious of him. I know he’s a mystic but there’s a limit to what people will digest.

Some of these comments show how poeple are interpreting him:

(32 likes) “Knowledge was transferred within the caste system  so the next generation got better .The problem with caste is the rigidity with the caste of not allowing the movement of knowledge to people who belonged to different casts .In the Modern world knowledge is more open to anyone who is interested in knowing”

(3 likes) “the origin of the cast system.”

(No likes) “He is talking about the beauty & power of the so called India's Caste System in a cryptic language. Which a colonially enslaved Nehruvian mindset will never be able to decrypt ?”

P.S: If you’re into psychedelic here’s a link to one of his articles about ayahuasca. https://isha.sadhguru.org/ca/en/wisdom/article/ayahuasca-parasitic-purging

[Leo Gura]

Not sure what your problem is here. What he said is fairly reasonable.

1 hour ago, Derek White said:

This argument is used by casteists and racists to justify social immobility, institutionalize oppression and superiority of one group over the other. Basically saying some people are born to carry shit while others are born scholars and monarchs.

You should distinguish between a thing being true vs how others might use it to justify whatever devilry they want.

For example, it is a general truism that men are physically stronger than women. But some devil could use this to justify raping women. Just because he does that does not undermine the original truth. Truth is always used by devils for selfish purposes. Clearly Sadhguru is not doing that. He's not justifying anything, he's explaining the notion of Samskara, which is a very powerful notion that would be worth your time studying and understanding. Samskara is not just genetics, it's broader and more profound than that.

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This seems to be an incoherent rambling of a drunk man.

Hehe... yeah. That's exactly what high-consciousness teachings sound like. Because you are judging them from a low level of consciousness, lacking Sadhguru's decades of deep mystical experience.

To understand a sage you must access the states of consciousness he has accessed.

[PenguinPablo]

@Leo Gura

 

good point. like talking to a science university professor. very much high in intellect to be sure but for the most part dismissive of any mysticism.

[Dumuzzi]

The thing about the caste system, is that there were originally four of them. Priests, Warriors, Merchants and Tradesmen with the fourth being manual labourers, farmers and servants. A pretty similar class system existed in Europe up to very recently and arguably it still exists to some extent in England, which is partly why they found it so easy to exploit and work with this system, when they took over India. 

In terms of a medieval society, largely based on agriculture, it probably made sense. It certainly makes no sense today, though it persists to some degree. I think it is wrong to look at previous epochs with the rose-tinted progressive glasses of the present. On the other hand, Sadhguru makes a good point about the past in India being better than the present. They had flush toilets and covered sewers in Mohenjo-Daro, five thousand years ago. Most Indian people lack these facilities today, so that is a fair point to make.

[Leo Gura]

55 minutes ago, Dumuzzi said:

They had flush toilets and covered sewers in Mohenjo-Daro, five thousand years ago. Most Indian people lack these facilities today, so that is a fair point to make.

Not a fair point when you take into account scale.

It's a totally different challenge to provide 1+ billion people with toilets.

Everybody overlooks the problems that come with scale. How to organize 1 billion people is a problem of epic proportions requiring a God-like intellect to solve.

Not to mention that technology has advanced far beyond toilets.

[Dumuzzi]

@Leo Gura Nevertheless, the feeling you get in India, is that its best days are behind it. There has been some improvement in the last decade, but it is not broad based yet. The counterpoint to yours is China, which was at the same level of development as India a few decades ago, but it is now significantly ahead. It can certainly be done.

[Leo Gura]

@Dumuzzi I don't see that at all. India is developing very rapidly. Its best days are ahead.

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"A total of 110 million toilets constructed for 600 million people in 60 months."

https://www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/worlds-biggest-toilet-building-program-india-gets-mixed-results

Just this year India almost landed a robot on the Moon!

What more do you want? Progress is happening.

[Dumuzzi]

@Leo Gura Let's hope so. But numbers don't tell the whole story. Its development has been incredibly uneven, both geographically and in terms of income distribution. The Ganges valley area, home to half a billion people, remains the poorest major geographical area in the world, significantly worse in terms of development and poverty numbers than even sub-saharan Africa. This is being counterbalanced by the much more developed western and southern regions, but it remains to be seen, whether that will be enough. There are other issues, such as climate change and the fact that China intends to steal India's major rivers, diverting them northwards. None of that looks too promising.

If you ever want to read an excellent analysis on the countervailing forces (both spiritual and material) in India, Willam Dalrymple's, The Age of Kali is perhaps the best source available to western audiences.

[Derek White]

@Leo Gura I totally agree with social and psychological implications and I know genetics play a major role. But to say you can transfer skills through genetics; a gold smith’s son is better at gold smithing because genetics... idk seems far fetched. It may be true who knows but if it is it will have huge social consequences. 
Also, idk how smart it is to say it in front of a solid stage blue audience. They will gleefully think they are superior because of caste. Seems dangerous.

[Derek White]

@Dumuzzi European society had a class system which was a lot less rigid than the caste system. The Mohenjo-Daro was part of the Harappa (Indus) civilization, which was wiped out partly by the Aryan invasion in around 2nd millennium BC. The caste system might be a form of rascism. This is from a textbook if you’re interested:

[Moreira]

Stop watching this fraud. Sadhguru is a Psy Op. He is not enlightened and often his answers are stupid or evasive. He has won lot of awards by the corrupt indian government. He killed his wife. Works for the World Economic Forum. This character is put out there to promote acceptance but in reality is passivity. This is to prevent masses to make a revolution against this rotten and corrupt system. Thats called in politcs controlled disidence. Passivity is not the solution.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Moreira

[captainamerica]

4 hours ago, Dumuzzi said:

@Leo Gura Let's hope so. But numbers don't tell the whole story. Its development has been incredibly uneven, both geographically and in terms of income distribution. The Ganges valley area, home to half a billion people, remains the poorest major geographical area in the world, significantly worse in terms of development and poverty numbers than even sub-saharan Africa. This is being counterbalanced by the much more developed western and southern regions, but it remains to be seen, whether that will be enough. There are other issues, such as climate change and the fact that China intends to steal India's major rivers, diverting them northwards. None of that looks too promising.

If you ever want to read an excellent analysis on the countervailing forces (both spiritual and material) in India, Willam Dalrymple's, The Age of Kali is perhaps the best source available to western audiences.

A lot of that is based on second hand knowledge. There are many biases common in smart people for example the bias of oversubscribing to the materialistic paradigm in the scientific community. That holds true even after such people are able to arrange a lot of data and make apparently compelling cases.

Since the internet after 2000 the developments have been becoming more and more distributed. The real problem being a very rigid and low grade education system. Quite similar to the US but in the US the culture does offset that quite a lot , to my knowledge.

[Derek White]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

@Dumuzzi I don't see that at all. India is developing very rapidly. Its best days are ahead.

 

Lol, you overestimate. The current govt. is quite fascist, communal, and supports religious extremism (im no SJW lol). They made a terror accused woman who shot an effigy of Gandhi to commemorate his assassin’s birthday a minister. Look at what Modi is doing in Kashmir and did in Gujarat in 2002. Look at the state of media. Actually there is an economic crisis happening right now. The unemployment rate is highest in 45 years or something. 
Here are some videos with subtitles and facts that show the state of the economy.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yP6K7lKMIQE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NtjkSuBVXl0

 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Derek White

[Thewritersunion]

@Dumuzzi ew. Are they even to think of the animals when they change this?

[Consilience]

2 hours ago, Moreira said:

Stop watching this fraud. Sadhguru is a Psy Op. He is not enlightened and often his answers are stupid or evasive. He has won lot of awards by the corrupt indian government. He killed his wife. Works for the World Economic Forum. This character is put out there to promote acceptance but in reality is passivity. This is to prevent masses to make a revolution against this rotten and corrupt system. Thats called in politcs controlled disidence. Passivity is not the solution.

? wut

[Codrina]

'But to say you can transfer skills through genetics; a gold smith’s son is better at gold smithing because genetics... idk seems far fetched.'@Derek White  

It may seem, but it is not. 

Creation works on memory. You create something, you learn from it, you keep what works, you throw away what doesn't and you create something new.

It is the whole mechanism of life. It works on memory - that is karma. The memory of life.

You take a Shepard dog, who has never seen a sheep, take him to a heard and he will know how to keep your flock together. He will instantly just do it. It is his genetic memory. Just like all hunting dogs hunt without any teaching.

Of course, humans have a very complex memory and your actions create new ones all the time. So, the son of a few generations of gold smiths will have a natural ability for it, that doesn't mean that he will cultivate it or that someone else, who has no history of it, can't learn it and get really good at it.

My father has a very good drawing hand, and a good sense of aesthetics. He probably got that from his father. I got it from him.

I think it is important to know the memory you carry, how it influences you and see what you choose to cultivate further.

All the love!

[Derek White]

@Codrina That’s not how it works. University profs and most scientists would disagree, that’s all I'm saying.

If this was true than monarchs would make the best rulers. It would be blatantly obvious and taught to us in schools.

I mean ya there are things science doesn’t know but this goes too far and is borderline eugenics.

He shouldn’t involve science in it when it isn't really there. And I think it is inappropriate to say things like this in a country like India which is struggling with various forms of discrimination.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Derek White said:

That’s not how it works. University profs and most scientists would disagree, that’s all I'm saying.

He shouldn’t involve science in it when it isn't really there. And I think it is inappropriate to say things like this in a country like India which is struggling with various forms of discrimination.

I am a University professor of genetics. This is more nuanced than what you are aware of. The scientific link is through epigenetics, which is now mainstream science. Yet we are still in the early stages. 

Part of what Sadhguru is pointing to is epigenetics. He has a knowing of the territory, yet scientists have yet not drawn the maps of this territory yet. Sadhguru is not a trained scientist, so he is explaining it a bit sloppy from a scientist's perspective. Yet don't let that fool you. From a scientific approach, we are building maps of this territory - yet we are in the very early stages. 

5 hours ago, Derek White said:

But to say you can transfer skills through genetics; a gold smith’s son is better at gold smithing because genetics... idk seems far fetched. It may be true who knows but if it is it will have huge social consequences. 

From a geneticist's perspective, there is some truth about transferring learned abilities, fears and traits. Yet the map is still crude. We are currently constructing higher resolution maps. 

This gets into Lamarckian evolution and epigenetics. Lamarck hypothesized that physical traits acquired over one's lifetime can be passed onto their offspring. For example, if someone lifts weights and develops large muscles they can pass that on to their offspring. However, once chromosomal and molecular genetics came of age in the early to mid 1900s, Lamarck's theory was considered disproven. It was clear that DNA sequences was the source of genetic information inherited. The traits a person attain during their lifetime will not affect the genetic sequence in their gametes (sperm and eggs), thus the acquired traits will not be passed on to offspring. . . . Buuut wait, there's more. . . 

We know understand that the above ideology is only partially and there is more to the story. A new exciting area of biology is epigenetics and it will integrate a lot of phenomena. For example, scientists can now detect epigenetic changes due to one's life history - many of these changes are inheritable. For example, children that undergo abuse and PTSD have widespread epigenetic alterations. These are not changes in gene sequences, these are changes in chromosomal structure that alter the expression of genes. For example, children that are exposed to neglect/abuse/trauma have widespread epigenetic changes and gene expression alterations in the hippocampus - the hippocampus stores memories and communicates with the anterior pituitary gland - which releases hormones, including stress hormones. Childhood neglect/abuse/trauma alters gene expression in the hippocampus affecting memories and stress hormone release. For example, the gene NGF1A normally downregulates the stress hormone cortisol. Children with neglect/abuse/trauma commonly have epigenetic changes that reduce NGF1A activity, thereby allowing higher levels of cortisol and stress. This happens to hundreds of genes throughout the genome. . . One may think "Wait a minute. . . The stress and anxiety could be good to help the person deal with the situation". Yes. . . but, these changes persist - not for a few days or weeks - for years and decades. Perhaps the rest of the child's life. And importantly, some of these epigenetic changes are inheritable.

To integrate social dynamics, karma and genetics. . . Right now in the U.S. there are children being separated from their parents and kept in cages. This is causing widespread epigenetic changes in their body. Their chromosomal structure is being altered through methylation, which affects the gene expression profile of many genes, including genes in their hippocampus and pituitary glands. Many of these epicgenetic changes will persist and will be associated with neuroses and anxiety disorders - well after the trauma stops. Likely the rest of their lives. AND some of these epigenetic changes will be inherited by their offspring. . . . This is an aspect of social karma. A portion of the social karma of the U.S. and central america is being epigenetically transmitted to these children in cages and will then be transmitted to their children and grandchildren - even though these future generations were not directly exposed to the cage trauma. The future generations may not even be aware of it. Their parents may never even tell them. The future generations now carry a portion of the karmic load epigenetically. Generations later, someone may have an anxiety disorder and deja-vu and get a sense that they went through trauma in a previous life. They did and they are carrying that epigenetically. . . 

And this is not limited to humans and trauma. . . we are learning all sorts of environmental input and experience is stored epigenetically and passed on to subsequent generations as a type of "memory". To me, this is one of the most exciting areas of science because it can integrate biology, psychology, neuroscience, sociology, spirituality and metaphysics.  And I love a good integration. 

There is no separate individual person that is "born". Life does not start when sperm meets egg. Life is an integrated continuous process. You were never "born". This isn't pseudo-science. It is cutting edge science. Last week I went to a presentation on epigenetic inheritance. Afterwards, I asked the scientist "What is memory? What is intelligence?". He shrugged his shoulders, smiled and said "I'm not really sure anymore". . . It's all getting re-contextualized through the evolution and it's beautiful. 

[Forestluv]

Below is a peer-reviewed scientific article in a high level journal PNAS. It shows a significant correlation between childhood neglect/abuse/trauma and widespread epigenetic alterations that persist well after the initial trauma.

https://www.pnas.org/content/110/20/8302

The below paper is a peer-reviewed summary of scientific evidence that shows an enduring epigenetic effect of trauma exposure that is passed to offspring transgenerationally via epigenetic inheritance.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5977074/pdf/brainsci-08-00083.pdf

[Codrina]

@Serotoninluv Thank you. I can see what Sadhguru says, but I don't know the science