Forrest Adkins

Would an Enlightened Person be able to say no to heroin?

38 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

No. Definitely no.

It's interesting to see how many here have a completely wrong notion of enlightenment.

I'm not sure that "wrong" is productive. This sounds like an egoic term. I'd prefer that we use a more pliable phrase such as "not as Enlightened as I am". Oops! That's egoic also... yet in essence isn't that what Mikael89 seemed to mean with his statement? Some aren't as Enlightened as others. We're on the same path, just not as far along as some others. Should I feel penalized and not share because of such a superior bold attitude? You must decide...

❤???????

Edited by Eugenio
I wanted my chakra hearts on the same line

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4 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

It depends on the quality of the heroin

@Nak Khid Please tell me your joking.o.O

 

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Let's not get it twisted. Eugenio never used the phrase heroin whore, but repeated what we all read. I'm very familiar with Carl Gustav Yung and his archetypes. "While Jung suggested a number of universal archetypes, the four main ones are: the Self, the Shadow, the Animus and Anima, and the Persona". And of the 12 archetypes I don't see the words whore or prostitute so nice try but no cigar... oh, and I'm also a fan of Friedrich Nietzsche. And hey Leo, I watched one of your videos today as you were speaking on truth/Truth. Nice... I too have dropped a few hits in my time. It's nice that we can connect. 

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Edited by Eugenio
Bad image but can't delete

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Your understanding of awakening is limited. Depending on how deeply craving is extinguished, an awakened person can not only say no to heroin but also deal with heroin withdrawal symptoms. 

I think people don't understand what the elimination of craving actually is. Also, remember that heroin addiction is overcome by people who have NEVER meditated. Just over time, with a lot of resistance, ordinary people do give up this substance.

So we are not talking about a level of addiction so high that no ordinary person even has a chance of giving up. All 'addictive' substances (like heroin) has been overcome by ordinary people at some point in their lives.

A deeply awakened person can give up any substance (including heroin) without suffering (or if unskilled with minimum suffering). This doesn't mean they wouldn't experience pain. They would. But they would momentarily ease into the experience of pain knowing that sensate reality is impermanent, occurring to no-self, and resistance to this sensation resulting in craving and suffering.

If you couldn't deal with extreme cases like heroin addiction, then why even pursue awakening? The end of suffering is not a simple statement. It is a radical statement. A skilled meditator would also experience as much equanimity as possible with meditative joy as well depending on the severity of the pain.

And again, depending on your skills, you can experience joy and happiness in spite of great physical and emotional pain. If I've done this with low levels of pain, then someone who is actually awake can do this with great pain. They would also have vastly improved skills in stable attention, mindful awareness, sensory clarity and equanimity than I do.

Therefore, skillful practice even in heroin addiction (which has one of the most painful drug withdrawal symptoms out of all drugs) is possible for a deeply awake person.

 

Edited by ardacigin

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@Forrest Adkins After awakening some addictions fall away. Others stay. The Enlightened person wouldn't do something based on any uncomfortability or desire.

That's if all karmic patterns has been dissolved from the body.

 

 

 

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The withdrawal symptoms, whether the addiction is substance dependent or not, might include physical death. But that's quite rare.

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An enlightened person with a physical addiction to heroin wouldn't be enlightened anymore 


A thought is never true

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This is the best video I've seen over my 33 years of seeking help for what I've called addiction. All of this reading has led me back to view it again...

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Ultimately I don't know enough enlightened heroin addicts to give a reliable answer but thought I'd play with the question a bit.

If the addict declined the heroin, would it prove that they weren't addicted in the first place? Similarly, if the enlightened person took it, would it prove that they weren't enlightened in the first place? Maybe it depends on our definitions.

If we define addiction as "inability to avoid something" and enlightenment as "awakened but might still have some addictions", then maybe we get one answer.

If we define addiction as "tendency not to avoid something but might still be able to avoid it if lucky/determined etc." and enlightenment as "grasps the true self to the extent that extreme desire and physical needs are largely mastered" then maybe we get another answer.

A key part seems to be "in the room" as I assume most people who successfully cease heroin consumption aren't locked in a room with it.

I thought it was a nice question by the way. I hope the mods don't get a hold of it and lock it because it's not directly relevant to the average person's immediate personal development. Half the fun of learning is getting to ponder the unusual and quirky things that most people don't normally consider or pay attention to. This is partly why I like Actualized.org.

 

Edited by Dan502

Profound Familiarity
An Audio Journal

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As an enlightened person, I still can't say no to masturbation. The body just acts on its own. It feels like I'm the observer of it, but can't control it. 


"Not believing your own thoughts, you’re free from the primal desire: the thought that reality should be different than it is. You realise the wordless, the unthinkable. You understand that any mystery is only what you yourself have created. In fact, there’s no mystery. Everything is as clear as day. It’s simple, because there really isn’t anything. There’s only the story appearing now. And not even that.” — Byron Katie

 

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Keep in mind that the Absolute is distinct from the structures of the mind/brain/self. Which means it's possible to awaken but still have addictions. Because addictions are baked into the structure of the mind/brain/self. Awakening itself does not necessarily change the mind/self. Which is why an awakened person can still smoke cigs, have a porn addiction, etc.

You can think of it this way: awakening disidentifies you from your mind. But the mind still continues to fire according to its lifetime of karma. If you spent a lifetime watching porn, your mind has been programmed with that habit, and awakening will not automatically remove all that. You will have to retrain your mind.

This is why many awakened people are still flawed and still have bad habits and cravings.

The mistaken assumption is that awakening will perfect the mind. This is simply untrue in practice. What perfects the mind is deliberate training, which many people neglect to do, especially after an awakening or two.

Perfecting the mind is harder than awakening.

In practice you could get many awakened people hooked on heroin. Because in truth they ain't that awake.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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The Enlightened One realizes he is not the body, nor the mind, but the eternal awareness in between.

The enlightened one never had the addiction, he is detached from the illusion.


B R E A T H E

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On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 1:36 AM, Leo Gura said:

People have said no to heroin without being Buddhas. Just ordinary people.

Of course this doesn't mean it will be pleasant.

Absolutely right.

OPs question reflects the cultural assumption that being hooked on heroin is so bad that refusing a hit will likely be almost impossible and requires some super-human state of mind to achieve. What is less recognised is that, whilst very unpleasant to withdraw, many people manage to go through the process for a variety of reasons including being so defeated by the life and reaching their own particular rock-bottom which leaves the choice of killing oneself or taking the pain. And those who make it through will most probably say that staying off is much harder to achieve than going through withdrawal. In fact, taking some "turkey" is part of the lifestyle of active addiction and is experienced by many addicts not that infrequently.

 

Be wary of cultural assumptions (as Leo has previously and rightly stated); be also aware that there are a very small percentage of opiate users who are able to use in a fashion which does not lead to addiction. You don't hear about them because they don't tend to advertise their activities.     

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