conclusion from Facets Of Awakening (vegans come here)

[DrewNows]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

Based on higher consciousness/empathy or technological advances?

they are the same, reflecting one another, but i see us getting back to nature (love and connection) 

Edited October 17, 2019 by DrewNows

[OmniYoga]

@Mikael89 that attachment to the form, 

and the truth of this universe is that everything changed forms constantly all the time,
i don't know it's a property of a consciousness itself, but might be

[OmniYoga]

11 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

For example, people could evolve up the spiral to green and feel empathy for animals and not want to eat them. Or new technology could create meat such that we don’t need animals for meat anymore. 

@Serotoninluv what about empathy for plants?
this again double standards and hypocrisy
using the known perception of mammals, and ignoring the perception of a plant

[Forestluv]

23 minutes ago, OmniYoga said:

@Serotoninluv what about empathy for plants?
this again double standards and hypocrisy
using the known perception of mammals, and ignoring the perception of a plant

I think humans are much further away from that type of empathy. Humans relate closer to animals that look and behave similar to humans. 

[Scholar]

5 hours ago, OmniYoga said:

@Serotoninluv what about empathy for plants?
this again double standards and hypocrisy
using the known perception of mammals, and ignoring the perception of a plant

Because plants do not need to suffer or even to be sentient. Plants can pure consciousness, as you are in deep sleep, the same as a rock is.

 

There is no reason for a plant to create it's own world so that it can navigate reality. The plant can simply be a plant, it cannot run away from a predator, it does not run around, create complex social bonds in which it requires awareness of the potential threats that can exist within it, etc.

If plants have perceptions, then calculators probably do too. So would the computer you are using right now.

Aside from that, being vegan is the best thing you can do for the plants. The animals we eat have the strange tendency to eat plants themselves.

[VeganAwake]

We definitely need to balance things out there could be a way where we can let the animals live out their whole life help us fertilize the plants and not keep breeding animals just to use them as food. They should be able to walk on a path eating lots of tasty plants along the way shiting and fertilizing the soil somehow getting a chance to mate naturally things like that.

Maybe the future really is that lab meat.

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by VeganAwake

[Forestluv]

44 minutes ago, Scholar said:

If plants have perceptions, then calculators probably do too. So would the computer you are using right now.

Is it possible that most humans cannot perceive of plant perceptions because humans are perceiving through a human filter?

You also mention how humans perceive calculators. Is it possible that AI will develop perception that humans cannot currently conceive of? Because they are contracted to believe that human perception is perception. Perhaps human perception is one form of perceptual expression. 

I've had some experiences with trees that suggest there is something going on that the vast majority of humans are not currently in tune with. Yet maybe I'm just hallucinating. 

[OmniYoga]

@Scholar

you're totally unaware of plants' intelligence, their strugle for surivial and reasources

just becasue their recation time are usually much slower than animals, and you can't see it straight away with your eye - it doesn't mean there is no life force there, or they are clueless what's going on

and that life force is worst than that in animals

[OmniYoga]

@Mikael89 also if you look at games world, there is no problem with respawn (die and reborn)
as long as there is no gain or loss attached to death of the character, if it is people can get crazy over that fiction self - the indentication can be so strong that it almost feel like you were dying, or you lost something ...

the question will be can you gain or loss something in life?

[Barna]

On 10/14/2019 at 4:01 PM, OmniYoga said:

there is nothing worng in killing, becasue it's just switch the from - isn't it?

I like your question, so I'm gonna be a bit dramatic with my answer

Let's not go as far as killing. Let's just stay at eating meat. 

I have a question for you: there is nothing worng with eating your daughter's corpse, becasue it's just a switch of the from - isn't it?

You see, if you're not starving to death, then you have to come up with a very fucked up excuse for eating your daughter's corpse...   The same way right now your mind is trying to come up with excuses to eat meat in general. You don't consider animals as close to you as your own daughter, so your mind thinks that a weak excuse, like "it's just switching form" is enough. 

If you can't love an animal as much as you would love your own daughter then I can't explain you what's wrong with eating meat. 

You're God, and every single animal is your son and daughter. It depends on you how long it takes until you accept this. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Barna

[Nahm]

@OmniYoga What you perceive is never a perceiver.

 

[OmniYoga]

@Barna just a cultural thing, it's just psychological resistance

read - stranger in a strange land - it might change your mind about eating  corpse

there are parts of the world where people eat - dogs, horses, all kind of worms and bugs, frogs, snails and some other things that you might feel like vomit, and they are totally find with it

we are picky because we have privilege, we overcomed food supply chain - 24/7
when wast the last time, you have been starving for more than a day?

"You're God, and every single animal is your son and daughter."
once again double standards and hypocrisy,
man, you're lacking basic logic

I can write  the exact same arguments with plants, and you probably eat them with a blush on your cheeks without any shame

 

7 hours ago, Nahm said:

@OmniYoga What you perceive is never a perceiver.

 

@Nahm  I don't get it  who is the perceiver then?

and what is perceiving? Maya???

Edited October 19, 2019 by OmniYoga

[Sage]

@DrewNows This guy is full of shit. He's hospitalized many people with his advice. I almost killed myself following his advice. Don't share this nonsense, it's dangerous information. For your own good stop following his advice asap before the real deficiencies and blood sugar issues begin.

@Leo Gura I'd appreciate it if you would remove this post and save anyone naive enough to follow it some real health issues 

[Barna]

4 hours ago, OmniYoga said:

just a cultural thing, it's just psychological resistance

I think you're oversimplifying and denying your own emotional intelligence. Whenever you're feeling something, the reason behind a feeling is never a "just". Feelings are infinetely complex and intelligent. Spend some time with them, get familiar with them. 

 

4 hours ago, OmniYoga said:

I can write  the exact same arguments with plants, and you probably eat them with a blush on your cheeks without any shame

I suggested a false equivalence between humans and animals, sorry about that. Humans and animals are not equal because of their difference in the depth of their consciousness. Humans have a deeper, more sophisticated consciousness. The same way, animals and plants are not equal because animals have a more sophisticated consciousness. 

You're right, objectively speaking there's nothing wrong with eating meat. There's nothing wrong with anything, good and bad are imaginary distinctions. 

But subjectively now, whenever you're sitting down to have a meal, you have a choice. Whether you're eating meat or plants, you're contributing to killing them. But you can choose which depth of consciousness you support killing. So, when you have this choice, what are your reasons for choosing to kill such a sophisticated creature as an animal? Don't generalize it, I'm interested in your own subjective reasons for choosing to eat meat. 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Barna

[Nahm]

@OmniYoga https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/41062-law-of-one/

 

[Scholar]

On 17.10.2019 at 9:26 PM, Serotoninluv said:

Is it possible that most humans cannot perceive of plant perceptions because humans are perceiving through a human filter?

You also mention how humans perceive calculators. Is it possible that AI will develop perception that humans cannot currently conceive of? Because they are contracted to believe that human perception is perception. Perhaps human perception is one form of perceptual expression. 

I've had some experiences with trees that suggest there is something going on that the vast majority of humans are not currently in tune with. Yet maybe I'm just hallucinating. 

I am not a mind-body dualist so to me the concept of perception is delusional. There is simply a certain state of being, it is not "caused" by a brain.

It seems like a certain state of being, namely sentience, is correlated to what we interpret to be a very specific form of interactions between wavefunctions. It is so particular that it can exist in the same form, namely the brain, with almost the exact same type of interaction between wave-functions, and still be present or not be present. This is the case in deep sleep, when what we call sentience is not present at all. The form of being that is present at that point is not sentience, it does not contain suffering or what our standard definition of "experience" is.

Again, that state is so particular and specific that even brain-activity is not equal to it, as the brain is very active during deep sleep. The assumption is that this particular state of being, which we call sentience, is very particular to survival mechanisms, namely ones that require the complex nagivation of reality by immediate means. The organism of the human, even in the state of deep sleep, is far beyond the complexities any plant can provide.

Of course plants are Being, thus they are consciousness, yet I do not think it is likely that they are what we consider to be sentience. They for example do not require ego, they do not require to suffer, they do not interact with other beings in the same way we do. They cannot run away from prey, they do not require a fear of death. All they require is deep sleep. A plant, in other words, does not require the illusion of duality, thus there is no difference between destroying a rock and destroying a plant.

The intelligence contained in a rock is beyond comprehension, the difference from rock to plant is so slim it would make no difference, so is the difference between rock and human. I do not think intelligence implies sentience, rather sentience is a very particular kind of intellgence. In this way intelligence cannot be seperated from being/consciousness, but it can be seperated from sentience.

 

Of course there is something going on in plants that the vast majority of humans are not currently aware of, but the same is true for a rock and the air your breath. Sure, plants might have a particular form of intellgence, they might resonate to different states of being, like particular aspects of human sentience. There could be plant sentience, but there could also be rock sentience, ocean sentience and so forth. I find that most people have a tendency to correlate a certain way of structured movement, which they call intelligence, to what they are in their waking state. But what about what there is in deep sleep? What would it mean to end a life that was in deep sleep for all of eternity? A life that could not remember anything, a life that was so immersed in being it simply was pure being. What would be the difference between ending that life and not ending it?

 

I would argue in a similar way as far as AI goes, however I do not really believe that AI is possible in the way we think it is. Computers are Being no matter what, but when they become Sentience is to me a question of when there is a certain interaction of wavefunctions, a very particular kind, so particular we cannot even tell the difference between the waking state and the deep-sleep state.

How I look at it: If the each neuron in the brain was a lamp, the light the lamp produces is not sentience, rather the interaction between all the light all the lamps produce is what causes sentience. A very specific kind of interaction is needed for a very specific kind of state of being. Infact, sentience is not "caused" by the interaction of the light, rather the interaction of the light is sentience. It is that particular kind of being, looked at by itself "interpreted" as one of those very interactions.

You can also flip it all and say sentience causes the interactions, it doesn't really matter. Computers lack the lamps and they alsp lack the light. Computers are more like a system of strings that just pull on each other. Very rigid, no access to genuine Nothingness or Creativity. The Neurons, the Lamps and the Lights, are in a way directly linked to the "First Cause", Nothingness, Creativity. They are connected to the spark, not because of how they move or what kind of interactions they produce, but because of what they are.

Basically, I think computers will only become sentient and therefore genuinely creative once we change the physical structure of the computers, maybe some sort of biological computers or quantum computers. Whatever the "brain" is "accessing" is not at all currently present in computers.

This all is kind of obsolete to explain because in the end it is only an explanation in a materialistic framework.

 

Certain kind of wave-formations (imagine perception-waves/being-waves)  ARE Sentience. Neurons do not create or cause these wave-formations, rather they "tune" into them. In the end they are not truly seperate and the Neurons themselves are the waves aswell. While computers are also these waves, they do not tune into the same kind of wave-formations, much like a rock isn't.

But even that explanation just misses the point, trying to explain this is like using a limited amount of rope to bind two poles together. Once you bind the rope to one pole, you cannot reach the other pole. Or, once you reach the other pole, the previous knot slips.

 

On 18.10.2019 at 4:03 AM, OmniYoga said:

@Scholar

you're totally unaware of plants' intelligence, their strugle for surivial and reasources

just becasue their recation time are usually much slower than animals, and you can't see it straight away with your eye - it doesn't mean there is no life force there, or they are clueless what's going on

and that life force is worst than that in animals

I never said Plants aren't intellgience or not alive. I don't create dualities like life vs non-life or intelligence vs non-intelligence. A rock contains and is just as much alive and intelligent as a plant is, which is why I don't think sentience is correlated to intelligence or life. Sentience is a particular kind of being that is not present in plants, because a plant is not playing the same game we are. The plants "survival" game is so radically different, whatever state of being the plant is is foreign to our notions of suffering, ego, resistence and so forth.

And also, being vegan is the best thing you can do for plants.

If you say that plants are sentient, you would also have to say that each of your limbs might be sentient. Your hand grows all on it's own, in fact it will grow in all sorts of ways depending on what food you provide it and where it will find resistance. Is your hand it's own sentient being? If not, why not? Why does one body have to contain one sentience? Why do you think that different parts of your brain do not have their own sentience? How do you know each cell does not have it's own sentience?

Edited October 19, 2019 by Scholar

[DrewNows]

6 hours ago, Sage said:

@DrewNows This guy is full of shit. He's hospitalized many people with his advice. I almost killed myself following his advice. Don't share this nonsense, it's dangerous information. For your own good stop following his advice asap before the real deficiencies and blood sugar issues begin.

Lets agree to disagree. Appreciate your thoughts, but take responsibility for yourself. i don't need your advice, or anyone elses. I guess you gotta learn somehow. Understanding his audience and avoiding the extremes is key. Stop being a 'follower' and start listening to your inner guiding system. If he doesn't resonate with you then perhaps you aren't ready to actually hear what he's saying. Stop making decisions out of fear and other's beliefs. 

Edited October 19, 2019 by DrewNows

[Nahm]

@Scholar What do you think about perception = sentience? In the sense, the delusion is required, thus making the intelligence of a plant, incomprehensible, based on the illusion one is comprehending (a delusion which the plant is not under)

[zeroISinfinity]

On 14.10.2019. at 4:01 PM, OmniYoga said:

 

Yeah plant is always in bliss. It doesn't "know" It's plant doesn't "know" anything. 

Yeah next life plant or some rock. That one which comprehends and perceives is separated self cause of Suffering. In Truth you do not perceive you are sentience. God is not separated from creation. Can't really perceive anything don't I? But have to really beleive in that so BS Game can be pulled. What senses  really are continuation of Love from Source. I am that Source and Everything, completelly alone. 

I will never be loved that's the only reason for deep sadness. I am Love itself yet as Source I Will never be Loved. 

That's the reason of slumber, when you are connected with Heart ofcourse you can't beleive any "other" can really Love you. Other is already you. 

Talking with myself, sorry. 

[VeganAwake]

A serious must see....