Critiques of Zen Buddhism

[FredFred]

Hi!

Anyone know of good critiques about Zen Buddhism? I tried to look online for some of those, but didn't find a lot of serious ones.

Thanks a lot!

[zeroISinfinity]

Why would You look for critique. Maybe practises are the way. 

Zen is quite cool It's very legit way and path to Awakening. 

Will not disregard. Dive into it, maybe. 

[outlandish]

I've been around a lot of western diaspora Zen in the Soto tradition, so I can speak a little bit about that. I very much like the tradition, it's like a bit of a home to me. I do have critiques of some elements of the tradition, but when I look at these critiques and ask "would I change anything, should they be doing it better?", the answer is almost always no. The problems I have with it are more like my own problems, or just areas where I don't fit 100% with the tradition, which I don't really expect anyways.

One critique I can't fully dismiss is that I find many practitioners have a disproportionate fascination with all things Japanese. It ends up feeling like westerners apeing something they really are not. But there's a certain beauty in that as well - cultural misinterpretations birth all kinds brand new interesting culture.

I do find the core practice of zazen to be the best approach to meditation that I've come across, for myself at least.

[Truth Addict]

I think Zen is not fully efficient for killing the ego. Without enormous suffering, most practitioners will stay stuck at the level of the mind.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Truth Addict

[ajasatya]

52 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

I think Zen is not fully efficient for killing the ego. Without enormous suffering, most practitioners will stay stuck at the level of the mind.

You cannot talk about Zen from a perspective of someone who hasn't spent at least 1 month in a Zen monastery. Zen was created to be lived and practiced hardcore. What we know today as "Zen" is a cheap immitation of what it was designed for.

[Truth Addict]

2 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

You cannot talk about Zen from a perspective of someone who hasn't spent at least 1 month in a Zen monastery. Zen was created to be lived and practiced hardcore. What we know today as "Zen" is a cheap immitation of what it was designed for.

Solid point.

Numbers are solid as well. How many people do get enlightened through traditional Zen per year? I would guess not so many.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Ibn Sina]

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

Without enormous suffering, most practitioners will stay stuck at the level of the mind.

What made you come to this conclusion?

[Truth Addict]

Just now, Ibn Sina said:

What made you come to this conclusion?

My personal experience.

[Ibn Sina]

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

My personal experience

What exactly did you experience that brought you to this conclusion? I hope you are not trying to avoid answering it.

I also have come across similar conclusion but I can tell you exactly how I came to it ( my personal experience). Certainly I wouldn't try an easy escape with "My personal experience".

Edited September 18, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Bill W]

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

Solid point.

Numbers are solid as well. How many people do get enlightened through traditional Zen per year? I would guess not so many.

How can the numbers be solid? Who measures and verifies that a person is enlightened? 

[ajasatya]

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

Solid point.

Numbers are solid as well. How many people do get enlightened through traditional Zen per year? I would guess not so many.

"Not so many" people are suitable for Zen to begin with. And "not so many" people achieve full embodiment of Truth regardless of the path.

It's not about the method. It's about you, alive here and now, finding what works for you. But if you want to grasp a solid view of anything, live it. Guessing won't take you very far.

[Truth Addict]

1 hour ago, ajasatya said:

"Not so many" people are suitable for Zen to begin with. And "not so many" people achieve full embodiment of Truth regardless of the path.

Yes, and that's because those are the ones who are serious seekers. In fact, seriously seeking is the core delusion that Zen doesn't seem to transcend.

Out of 100 serious seekers, how many of them would have become enlightened through Zen?

1 hour ago, ajasatya said:

It's not about the method. It's about you, alive here and now, finding what works for you. But if you want to grasp a solid view of anything, live it. Guessing won't take you very far.

I didn't want to say this at first, but you kept defending Zen like it's part of your identity. That's one example for how it sucks at killing the ego.

It's about both the method and the seeker. I wouldn't dismiss one or the other.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Truth Addict]

1 hour ago, Ibn Sina said:

I hope you are not trying to avoid answering it.

I am.

What are you going to do about it?

Edited September 18, 2019 by Truth Addict

[ajasatya]

@Truth Addict I'm not defending Zen because there's nothing to defend about it, really. What I said is that you can't say that Zen is not hardcore.

Also, hardcore seeking is something that Zen transcends. It's very noticeable how the teachings of Zen kinda kick you out of Zen after you reach a certain level.

Wrapping it up, Zen goes full circle and comes back to a mundane life. From suffering to domain/release to Truth and back to being a regular dude.

[Truth Addict]

@ajasatya

Yes, in theory.

But look at the numbers.

[ajasatya]

24 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@ajasatya

Yes, in theory.

But look at the numbers.

There is no zen_practioners_history.csv...

I've been very close to many Zen communities. The numbers may be greater than you think.

Human perspective is cruelly biased. Yours and mine.

[Truth Addict]

@ajasatya

Well then, you can have your biases, and I can have mine.

Why are you even arguing with me?

[Mu_]

34 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@ajasatya

Well then, you can have your biases, and I can have mine.

Why are you even arguing with me?

Sorry man but do you have the numbers for the suffering through life path, the Buddhist path, the Hindu path , the Sufi path, the no path?  And if not what are you basing your numbers on?  And if you do have numbers what is the criteria of enlightenment based on to determine a ya or a neh?  

I wouldn’t bother with this if your name wasn’t truth addict. 

[ajasatya]

@Truth Addict I wouldn't call it arguing 

I'm trying not to let your statements demotivate Zazen beginners. People are insecure enough. There is a Zen saying that goes like this: don't jump off the boat too early.

[FredFred]

@Truth Addict @ajasatya This thread was created to talk about critiques of zen buddhism, not to talk about critiques of someone else's comment..