Attention vegan activists! QUESTION YOUR PARADIGM

[montecristo]

@flume How can appealing to nature be a fallacy? What higher authority do you have to appeal to?

I do worry about all the junk food eating but what's ironic is that at least all that junk food is fortified with synthetic vitamins. Growing up I was weak and sick all the time likely becasue I didnt eat junk food, just "a healthy whole foods plant based diet, with whole grains fruits and vegetables". Meanwhile I got hardly any nutrition and I always wondered why my peers didnt have issues. I think the only reason I survived was due to a bit of cheese milk and chicken sometimes. 

@Scholar "Would you want to be the countless of cows that are put into a slaughterhouse so that some humans could feel a little bit more energetic and healthy?" You cant boil it down to this, those of you who are blessed with good health have NO IDEA what it's like to not develop properly. Youre lucky to have a base of solid childhood nutrition that now allows you to be a vegan or plant based or whatever.

My parents were brainwashed into thinking they were giving me the best start in life, little did they know they were actually ruining it. 

Again I'm horrified by the abuses in animal agriculture as much as the next person, but everytime there are abuses, people swing their pendulums way too far in opposition and create a whole new set of issues.

 I'm still young and havent found my life purpose yet but it's looking like it will be something to do with bringing balance back into animal agriculture. If I had continued eating the way I did in my childhood, I could forget about dooing anythign higher or selfless, I wouldnt have the fortitude to do anything challenging at all.

Indians consume animal products in the form of cheese, milk, chicken meat as well as fish.

Btw the western world lives mostly on a plant based diet, be it junkfood or  otherwise. I live in China, a place with double the per capita meat consumption of the U.S. Traveling back and forth between the U.S, Europe and Asia I have carefully observed the health of the people I see and the difference is stark between there and the west.

Almost every person I see has reached their genetic potential, they have no weird allergies, healthy bmi's, perfect acne free skin, are very industrious and energetic and have perfect dental and facial development without the need for braces, even the poorest among them are extremely robust. Especially the youngest generation who had even higher meat consumption in childhood. They dont even know what autism is meanwhile 1/30 of our kids has it even though their environment is extremely polluted, hmmmmm.

They soak all their nuts and ferment their plant foods, they consume almost no cheese or bread for the most part either. Fruit is a luxury item there and they eat every single part of the animal, from the brain, to the intestine to the feet, all of it. This is a more traditional, natural way of living and it shows in the health of the herd. I copied what they do and now i'm healthy like they are, although I will never live down my childhood unfortunately.

compare that with what I see walking down the street in London or Boston or elsehwere in the western world and people look dicrepid, fat, sick and rather strange.

[Scholar]

22 minutes ago, montecristo said:

@flume How can appealing to nature be a fallacy? What higher authority do you have to appeal to?

I do worry about all the junk food eating but what's ironic is that at least all that junk food is fortified with synthetic vitamins. Growing up I was weak and sick all the time likely becasue I didnt eat junk food, just "a healthy whole foods plant based diet, with whole grains fruits and vegetables". Meanwhile I got hardly any nutrition and I always wondered why my peers didnt have issues. I think the only reason I survived was due to a bit of cheese milk and chicken sometimes. 

@Scholar "Would you want to be the countless of cows that are put into a slaughterhouse so that some humans could feel a little bit more energetic and healthy?" You cant boil it down to this, those of you who are blessed with good health have NO IDEA what it's like to not develop properly. Youre lucky to have a base of solid childhood nutrition that now allows you to be a vegan or plant based or whatever.

My parents were brainwashed into thinking they were giving me the best start in life, little did they know they were actually ruining it. 

Again I'm horrified by the abuses in animal agriculture as much as the next person, but everytime there are abuses, people swing their pendulums way too far in opposition and create a whole new set of issues.

 I'm still young and havent found my life purpose yet but it's looking like it will be something to do with bringing balance back into animal agriculture. If I had continued eating the way I did in my childhood, I could forget about dooing anythign higher or selfless, I wouldnt have the fortitude to do anything challenging at all.

Indians consume animal products in the form of cheese, milk, chicken meat as well as fish.

Btw the western world lives mostly on a plant based diet, be it junkfood or  otherwise. I live in China, a place with double the per capita meat consumption of the U.S. Traveling back and forth between the U.S, Europe and Asia I have carefully observed the health of the people I see and the difference is stark between there and the west.

Almost every person I see has reached their genetic potential, they have no weird allergies, healthy bmi's, perfect acne free skin, are very industrious and energetic and have perfect dental and facial development without the need for braces, even the poorest among them are extremely robust. Especially the youngest generation who had even higher meat consumption in childhood. They dont even know what autism is meanwhile 1/30 of our kids has it even though their environment is extremely polluted, hmmmmm.

They soak all their nuts and ferment their plant foods, they consume almost no cheese or bread for the most part either. Fruit is a luxury item there and they eat every single part of the animal, from the brain, to the intestine to the feet, all of it. This is a more traditional, natural way of living and it shows in the health of the herd. I copied what they do and now i'm healthy like they are, although I will never live down my childhood unfortunately.

compare that with what I see walking down the street in London or Boston or elsehwere in the western world and people look dicrepid, fat, sick and rather strange.

I don't know why you bring your parents irresponsibility into this. What do the animals have to do with that when we all can eat mussels and be fine even if we require meat?

China does not have double the meat consumption, but half the meat consumptiopn of the US. I don't know how to communicate with you, you skip most of what I am writing to you and don't respond to it. You also seem very biased in the way you ascertain your facts about any of this, maybe as an overreaction to what your parents did to you.

 

Sure people are super unhealthy in London and Boston because they consume so much animal products, and not even good animal products but ones that come from factory farms. We also don't eat nearly as much vegetables as we require, especially in a time in which vegetables only have a fraction of the minerals and vitamins they used to have even 30 years ago. How can you live in China and not think that meat is a luxury there?

Just look at how much more beef they eat now than 30 years ago. It's insane, but still not nearly the amount of the US. And all the "genetically full potential people" you talk about were born in a time in which they consumed almost no meat.

 

 

[SerpaeTetra]

10 hours ago, Scholar said:

I don't know why you bring your parents irresponsibility into this. What do the animals have to do with that when we all can eat mussels and be fine even if we require meat?

China does not have double the meat consumption, but half the meat consumptiopn of the US. I don't know how to communicate with you, you skip most of what I am writing to you and don't respond to it. You also seem very biased in the way you ascertain your facts about any of this, maybe as an overreaction to what your parents did to you.

 

Sure people are super unhealthy in London and Boston because they consume so much animal products, and not even good animal products but ones that come from factory farms. We also don't eat nearly as much vegetables as we require, especially in a time in which vegetables only have a fraction of the minerals and vitamins they used to have even 30 years ago. How can you live in China and not think that meat is a luxury there?

Just look at how much more beef they eat now than 30 years ago. It's insane, but still not nearly the amount of the US. And all the "genetically full potential people" you talk about were born in a time in which they consumed almost no meat.

 

 

Was going to say, I thought China consumed less meat than the US, didn't realize it was this big of a disparity.  

[Scholar]

 

[exhale]

This culture of debunking in the diet-wars is unproductive, and ultimately results in division.  We need to focus more on the similarities we have and prioritize unity, not tribalism.  It is counter-intuitive, but the more a vegan pushes their ideals, it creates more division and spite.  The more the non-vegan pushes their ideals, it creates more division and spite.  Communication and progress happens when people are at the table, looking into each others eyes and sharing moments together.  

We need to try to embody the stage yellow mindset and recognize that from a vegan point-of-view, that we can embody/live/promote this lifestyle, but at the same time, recognize and respect that others disagree and choose to live their life differently.  We need to try to not integrate our diet choice into our identity and ego, because this results in us acting in defense, which is not where love comes from.  Focus on unity, respect and love for your fellow humans and you will see the change you would like to see in the world.  Be patient. Love.

We need to try to embody the stage yellow mindset and recognize that from a non-vegan point-of-view, that we can embody/live/promote this lifestyle, but at the same time, recognize and respect that others disagree and choose to live their life differently.  We need to try to not integrate our diet choice into our identify and ego, because this results in us acting in defense, which is not where love comes from.  Focus on unity, respect and love for your fellow humans and you will see the change you would like to see in the world.  Be patient. Love.

 

[Scholar]

6 minutes ago, exhale said:

This culture of debunking in the diet-wars is unproductive, and ultimately results in division.  We need to focus more on the similarities we have and prioritize unity, not tribalism.  It is counter-intuitive, but the more a vegan pushes their ideals, it creates more division and spite.  The more the non-vegan pushes their ideals, it creates more division and spite.  Communication and progress happens when people are at the table, looking into each others eyes and sharing moments together.  

We need to try to embody the stage yellow mindset and recognize that from a vegan point-of-view, that we can embody/live/promote this lifestyle, but at the same time, recognize and respect that others disagree and choose to live their life differently.  We need to try to not integrate our diet choice into our identity and ego, because this results in us acting in defense, which is not where love comes from.  Focus on unity, respect and love for your fellow humans and you will see the change you would like to see in the world.  Be patient. Love.

We need to try to embody the stage yellow mindset and recognize that from a non-vegan point-of-view, that we can embody/live/promote this lifestyle, but at the same time, recognize and respect that others disagree and choose to live their life differently.  We need to try to not integrate our diet choice into our identify and ego, because this results in us acting in defense, which is not where love comes from.  Focus on unity, respect and love for your fellow humans and you will see the change you would like to see in the world.  Be patient. Love.

 

What you are showing here is a stage orange, multiplistic point of view. Live and let live, freedom of choice, everyone should mind their own business, disguised as a stage yellow perspective which does not actually contain a lot of love.

 

From a perspective of universal love, we will accept the ego-mechanisms in the vegan movement if they are necessary for a transition into a world of less suffering and less environmental destruction. We will accept cultural clashes because we recognize it is part of a natural evolution and transition into new cultural norms. Relativizing the perspectives to the degree you do does not create progress, it hinders progress.

Identity and ego are needed and a vital part of cultural transitions. The world will not go from stage orange to universal love. What will be required is a universal identity, that identity will not allow the exploitation of animals as much as it does not allow the exploitation of human beings.

Again, if you were truly consistent, you would have to accept that human beings are being murdered, that we should be accepting of the lifestyle of serial killers. You are not, you are using this stage yellow facade to justify a lifestyle which contributes to harm and suffering, which contributes to egoism and selfishness.

 

Creating a strong identity towards animals is a step towards a universal identity, it is a required, it is something we need to build upon so one day we can truly let go of it. Stage yellow will recognize this, stage yellow will use the tools needed to help the world transition from orange to green without demonizing the perspective of stage green, which is what you are currently doing.

 

The perspective of stage green is that it is wrong to kill animals for the reasons we currently do. From stage green, the exploitation of animals is not a personal choice, it is not a choice of lifestyle, just as much as human slavery is not simply a "point-of-view". Human slavery is discrimination, it is causing suffering, it is viewed as injustice. It is not merely viewed as another valid perspective to see the world.

Without the strong ego attachment towards all of the human race, we would have never abolished slavery. We would have continued to keep black people in chains.

 

What you are doing is the opposite of stage yellow. You are not accepting and loving towards the perspective of stage green. You are putting them down, you are viewing them as lower than your "universal love" perspective. You view your perspective as correct and more useful than theirs. "No vegans, you have to calm down, you have to be like me. You have to be accepting of meat eaters. You have be loving and patient."

Yellow would see the value in the ego attachment of vegans towards animals. It would see that it is a necessary step towards the continuing abolishment of needless suffering and death. You would seek to encourage green, you would praise someone like Earthling Ed for his empathetic approach, instead of making statements about movements you seem to only know of by the presentation of stage orange critique of it.

 

Vegans are in most cases are very empathic and understanding towards meat eaters, but due to our compassion towards animals we cannot value the perspective of the meat-eaters as much as the perspective of the animals. Our more universal compassion does not allow us to stand by and be satisfied with the status quo. Fundamentally, the meat eaters are directly undermining the perspective of other beings. They are directly contributing to suffering and death that can be avoided.

 

I think your current position is more of the pitfall of excessive relativism of stage green than it is systemic stage yellow understanding. Veganism is growing rapidly, I think currently they are doing a very good job. By your understanding apartheid should have never been fought against because "Love and understand everyone". That is not how the world works, don't project your higher point of view onto others, especially when it might not even be a "higher" point of view.

[exhale]

@Scholar I have been vegan for 3 years, and am a veterinarian.  I care very deeply about animals and the environment.  Be careful with your assumptions. 

I am humble enough to admit that I do not have all the answers or solutions, nor do I have perfect fabricated answers to any criticisms of my perspective.  But I have progressed (in some facets of my life) from orange to green and am now knocking on yellow's door.  To be clear, I am not saying this is a sanctimonious way--I am not stage yellow, but I am slowly understanding and embodying it--especially with regards to my "relationship" with veganism.  I understand why orange rejects it, I understand why green embodies it, and I understand why green villainizes the yellow perspective. 

Previously, I have found myself emphasizing the comparisons to unanimous acceptance of murder and slavery, as you have.  I get it.  With all changes/disruptions to society there does need to be friction.  In my head, this "friction period" with respect the the vegan movement has already occurred, and is minimally effective (and in most efforts is counter-productive).  

On some level, one feels like they need to push more to "do more" for the cause.  It feels like if you tolerate the alternative (status quo) perspective, it feels like you are enabling or accepting it.  Perhaps, on some level this is true. 

Personally, I have seen more advancement, progression and acceptance of the vegan movement in the past 5 years due to communication vehicles (such as long-form podcasts) that are inherently more accepting, tolerant, and less/not combative than the classic militant vegan communication over the past 20 years (not saying that those weren't a necessary part of the picture--they were).  

I believe, correctly or incorrectly, that the more loving, accepting and understanding we are to our "non-vegan" friends/family/strangers, the more genuine and loving (and productive) conversations will be.  I believe, correctly or incorrectly, that the world will continue to move towards a more vegan lifestyle (out of preference or necessity), and I believe that the less defensive and combative these conversations are, the less likely the "non-vegans" are to be resistant on principle (polarization and tribalism).  This will expedite the progression of the vegan movement.  

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, exhale said:

@Scholar I have been vegan for 3 years, and am a veterinarian.  I care very deeply about animals and the environment.  Be careful with your assumptions. 

I am humble enough to admit that I do not have all the answers or solutions, nor do I have perfect fabricated answers to any criticisms of my perspective.  But I have progressed (in some facets of my life) from orange to green and am now knocking on yellow's door.  To be clear, I am not saying this is a sanctimonious way--I am not stage yellow, but I am slowly understanding and embodying it--especially with regards to my "relationship" with veganism.  I understand why orange rejects it, I understand why green embodies it, and I understand why green villainizes the yellow perspective. 

Previously, I have found myself emphasizing the comparisons to unanimous acceptance of murder and slavery, as you have.  I get it.  With all changes/disruptions to society there does need to be friction.  In my head, this "friction period" with respect the the vegan movement has already occurred, and is minimally effective (and in most efforts is counter-productive).  

On some level, one feels like they need to push more to "do more" for the cause.  It feels like if you tolerate the alternative (status quo) perspective, it feels like you are enabling or accepting it.  Perhaps, on some level this is true. 

Personally, I have seen more advancement, progression and acceptance of the vegan movement in the past 5 years due to communication vehicles (such as long-form podcasts) that are inherently more accepting, tolerant, and less/not combative than the classic militant vegan communication over the past 20 years (not saying that those weren't a necessary part of the picture--they were).  

I believe, correctly or incorrectly, that the more loving, accepting and understanding we are to our "non-vegan" friends/family/strangers, the more genuine and loving (and productive) conversations will be.  I believe, correctly or incorrectly, that the world will continue to move towards a more vegan lifestyle (out of preference or necessity), and I believe that the less defensive and combative these conversations are, the less likely the "non-vegans" are to be resistant on principle (polarization and tribalism).  This will expedite the progression of the vegan movement.  

You have been posting your critique not under some militant vegan post, but in a thread where we had a very civil discussion about veganism and it's effects on the environment specifically. I don't see that as very helpful, and I do view it as a knee-jerk reaction.

Again, stage green excessive relativism can very very harmful and that is what I see in the way you are communicating your message, especially because you are doing so in an environment which was the opposite of vegan "extremism". The loving, accepting and understanding "non-vegans" is an approach that is effective but limited. Again, to me this is the stage green "trying too hard to find consensus" pitfall. There are many, many people who the "loving and accepting" approach does not work at all, infact they will ridicule you for it.

Look at examples like Vegan Gains who had a huge impact on getting stage orange people into veganism with his very offensive and quite militant approach. Sure it will not convince everyone, but it will convince a very specific type of person who will certainly not be convinced by some lovey-dovey approach.

 

Don't forget that stage orange will ridicule stage green no matter what. The more "loving and accepting" you get the more like a foreign entity you will feel to them. A huge thing about getting to a new stage in spiral dynamics is that it requires relatability to the new ideas. A person who is between stage orange and green will have a much easier time to convince stage orange people of veganism than some stage turquoise monk who accepts and loves everyone. They don't vibe with each other, their energies are far too apart from each other.

This is why someone like Joey Carbstrong can get really good results with prisoners and criminals, because he himself was part of that. If he transformed into a stage green hippie, he wouldn't be able to relate to these people at all.

 

Again, in my view you are showing signs of stage green pitfalls, not of systemic stage yellow understanding. What do you understand to be a militant vegan? Do you have examples? Is it really a big problem in the vegan movement? What if you are biased in the way you view and accept progress? Maybe you simply dislike the different approaches and because you are less familiar with them you do not see the effects they can have on convincing others?

Don't forget that the "militancy" or the more radical views can have different effects than just convincing "non-vegans". It can also be a great tool to mobilize and create movements. But I urge you to once more reflect upon whether the "militant vegans" really are as big of a problem as you seem to be indicating, and whether or not most vegans will not agree with you anyways.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Scholar

[exhale]

@Scholar Perhaps the context of my perspective is not helpful to this conversation, if that is indeed the case, I apologize.  

As I stated before, I do not have a polished perspective, what I hope is to convey the essence of how I feel and how I am evolving into seeing the world. It is fine that you at first identify me as orange and then green with pitfalls.  My understanding that understanding orange and green are required to move into yellow.  I have clearly stated, that I am not yellow, but that my perspectives on certain areas of my life are transitioning into yellow, and probably imperfectly so.  And that is okay. 

That stated, I try to not maintain my perspective as dogmatic and static.  Therefore, I will reflect and consider many of the items you have mentioned, and I appreciate the dialogue. 

 

[Scholar]

25 minutes ago, exhale said:

@Scholar Perhaps the context of my perspective is not helpful to this conversation, if that is indeed the case, I apologize.  

As I stated before, I do not have a polished perspective, what I hope is to convey the essence of how I feel and how I am evolving into seeing the world. It is fine that you at first identify me as orange and then green with pitfalls.  My understanding that understanding orange and green are required to move into yellow.  I have clearly stated, that I am not yellow, but that my perspectives on certain areas of my life are transitioning into yellow, and probably imperfectly so.  And that is okay. 

That stated, I try to not maintain my perspective as dogmatic and static.  Therefore, I will reflect and consider many of the items you have mentioned, and I appreciate the dialogue. 

 

When I say that you do orange or green things, I don't mean that you are orange or green, but that you are using these aspects of the spiral.

I don't care what stage you or me are at, all I care is about what was being said. I think absolutistic relativism is a problem that a lot of people on this forum have, where everything becomes relative and they basically just use that to justify their positions or undermine the positions of others. I don't care whether they are blue, turquoise, yellow or red. There is a balance to be found between acceptance and passion, and while it is preferable to embody both, I don't think that we can go around and give that advice to people who simply are  not at the stage to be able to do so.

 

I do think your perspective is valuable, I just feel like we shouldn't take it so absolutistic. In the end, whatever will help progress is where we need to be.