Cykaaaa

The problem with open-mindedness

26 posts in this topic

tl;dr When should we stop being open-minded to certain perspectives?

I have this one friend that's pretty much a far-right nationalist, redpill guy - unhealthy stage blue, I'd say.  Then there's me, very solid stage green with a pretty open mind. I am fighting with him pretty much constantly about topics like feminism, socialism, Bernie Sanders, etc. I am accusing him of close-mindedness on his behalf, and OF COURSE he is accusing me as well (gives me some insight about how ideology works). It's been bugging my mind lately. Sometimes I'm wondering... What if I am the deluded one?

I've also seen this problem on this forum, where close-minded people are accusing Leo of close-mindedness. I've been reading a lot of such comments and Leo's responses (especially about Love - although I hold Leo as authority on this one. But even excluding Love - various topics, where sometimes we can't know how Leo can be so sure about it).

When should we cease being open-minded to certain perspectives? Where do we draw the line? When should we say "that's it" and reject "close-minded perspectives"? I feel like Leo has mastered this technique of drawing the line and boldly rejecting limited points of view. Can you give us some advice on this? I fear that I'll delude myself and put the label of "close-minded" and "not even worth considering" on things that I should be more open-minded to.


Enslavement by illusion is comfortable. It is the liberation by Truth that people fear.

The false dissolves when it is discovered. 

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@Cykaaaa

Sovereignty.

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

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Theres some form of truth in every perspective, at least stepping into the persons shoes and realizing why they may have that perspective, even if you dont agree with it or think that is true. So in that sense theres never an end to being open minded

being open minded doesnt mean you are a slave to every concept or have to subscribe to everything 


"Started from the bottom and I just realized I'm still there since the money and the fame is an illusion" -Drake doing self-inquiry

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@Cykaaaa That's the whole point of epistemology: you don't know what you don't know.

It's very helpful be keep that in the back of your mind at all times.

Closedminded people will of course project their closedmindedness onto you. That is devilry 101. But be careful because you can easily fall into that trap yourself.

The point is that reality is such that you can never draw any clear & stable lines. When you deeply grok this, you stop worrying about drawing lines. Drawing lines is the chief human delusion. All drawn lines are imaginary.

I have not drawn any firm lines. I'm always open to being proven wrong.

But practically, I usually know when someone is bullshitting me because I have a lot of direct experience to fall back on. But even so, I'm still open because my understanding is never complete or perfect.

Someone like a far-right nationalist I would not even bother taking seriously. They are obviously and hopelessly unconscious. It's not worth the time reasoning with them because they are completely in denial about their self-biases.

Just because your mind is open does not mean you have to take every fool seriously.

As a good rule of thumb, before taking a person's intellectual position seriously, I first need to see that he/she has a basic understanding of self-deception and self-bias. If they do not understand the significance of self-deception or self-bias, I can basically guarantee they are deeply deluded and so I will never take them too seriously. I can still learn from them, but it's going to be small potatoes stuff.

Once you have some awakening to the Absolute, that gives you a nice ground for cutting through bullshit. Until then you're really lost in a sea of bullshit with no clear compass to orient yourself because you cannot even know if anything I say is true.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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3 hours ago, Cykaaaa said:

I have this one friend that's pretty much a far-right nationalist, redpill guy - unhealthy stage blue, I'd say.  Then there's me, very solid stage green with a pretty open mind. I am fighting with him pretty much constantly about topics like feminism, socialism, Bernie Sanders, etc. I am accusing him of close-mindedness on his behalf, and OF COURSE he is accusing me as well (gives me some insight about how ideology works). It's been bugging my mind lately. Sometimes I'm wondering... What if I am the deluded one?

Why do you fight?

For your question: You can totally understand why someone is the way he is, respect a perspective they hold and still have a different perspective. You can even change a perspective every hour, day or year. The most important thing is that you dont identify with that perspective. It helps to not identify with any identity. In the end whatever perspective you hold and how open-minded you are doesnt matter. What matters is what do you want to accomplish by this.

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My close friend was a huge fan of Stefan Molyneux, and we had some pretty amazing conversations which I attribute to my own trying to figure out stage yellow. My answer is you know by your gut feeling when something is off. You gut feeling won't lie to you but the mind will. That's why it's keeping an open mind, not trying to stomach everything, eating everything you see as if you were pretending that you were a goat and not a human. 

My friend had a real challenge come up in life and I started using Eckhart Tolle's teachings to help her through it and it really resonated with her. I sent her an Abraham Hicks video and she really resonated with that even more and started listening to them by choice and has since moved past the Stefan Molyneux stuff. It's amazing how fast it happened. It's also amazing to me what kind of twisted ideologies wonderful and spiritually inclined people can get into. 

Enlightenment could be described as radically opening your mind and awakening as if you blew literally the whole thing open. After an awakening you'll hear an old saying, cliche or teaching and be like "OH MY GOD, I never knew what that really meant!"  Including the term "open-minded" xD

Edited by mandyjw

My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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I've often wondered... Does arguing/fighting with a close minded person demonstrate close minded qualities in oneself? It's like a fool arguing with a fool, they get on well. 

So it is really open mindedness? 

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@Cykaaaa to me it seems that leo conditioned you with the belief that your perspective and themes that fall under the category of 'green' are superior to the perspective of your friend that you put in the category of 'blue'. Seeing that you're unable to easily come out on top in your talks with your friend your are now posting in this forum about the dissonance you're experiencing because if you really knew your perspective is superior then your friend shouldn't be able to get to you.

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The number one signal of closemindedness is that the person cherry picks certain facts to uphold their view and completely ignores other facts. If you have to argue with them, then the best way to do it is to keep pointing out the facts they are ignoring. But that means you have to be more open minded and knowledgeable than they are. That also means there is always someone more open minded than you, and you're the closeminded one to them!

 

Edited by LastThursday
grammar

Consiousness is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is.

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my conclusion was that human are directly "nature will".

everything is a balance.

it's not even the case that human have to survive, just like some cells are born to die ( and sun are born to die too )

every light will one day fade.

so maybe even the fakery rules that are here today, they are directly orchestrated per the show of life.

means they are in essence a bit real.

So even the human that are close minded, they are born to be  close minded, they are like a part of the ocean aswell.

but maybe you're born to slap their face too

Edited by Aeris

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54 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

The number one signal of closemindedness is that the person cherry picks certain facts to uphold their view and completely ignores other facts. If you have to argue with them, then the best way to do it is to keep pointing out the facts they are ignoring. But that means you have to be more open minded and knowledgeable than they are. That also means there is always someone more open minded than you, and you're the closeminded one to them!

 

That's where you lack of contrast and you're "close minded",

I could understand a cannibal point of view who want to eat me, aside I wouldn't agree on the result.
 

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I think that the most practical way of solving that issue is simply by remembering the path you've been through.
If you were an alt-righter and grew out of it, then you will not confuse it for something that is more inclusive than your current worldview.
The catch with this method is that while you transitioned out of an ideology, you may have created an anti-ideology and are acting in reaction to your own shadow. Your opponent may actually be talking from a more integrated place, but will sound to you like a complete idiot because he is deliberately showing your own blind spots to you. Emotional triggers in discussions are usually an indication of someone's blind spot.

The best approach here is to ask questions about things you consider important in your worldview and see how your opponent incorporates them.
If their significance is not recognized, then it means that the person you're talking to is less developed (contracted). If they are recognized and dealt with in an acceptable manner, then consider that person an equal, or above you.

When it comes to convincing and opening the opponent up, it must be realized that it is only the higher person's agenda to be more inclusive. It is best to leverage the knowledge that pushed you out of that ideology in the past to show how they are limiting themselves.

It should also be pointed out that it is rarely beneficial to argue ideologies with people that you are frequently in contact with, because you are souring your relationship up without solving the large problems that are being discussed. There is, however, a boiling point that should not be ignored for the sake of your own emotional well-being.

Edited by tsuki

The true heresy is hearsay.

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green should work on being more yellow before wanting to convert people to "higher ideology"

green methods are too ignorants of social dynamic.

@tsuki good advice here, I would aknowledge them

 

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Most of what needed to be said has been already properly said in the thread. 

The only thing I would add is that the way you shut your mind to certain perspectives is by outgrowing them, unlike a close minded person who will shut down to things that don't fit their world view. 

By being open minded you will be able to dive into a viewpoint, understand the gist of it and integrate it into your perspective. And then you will be able to also see its flaws.

Outgrowing it means it will start to feel too simplistic, too narrow focused and too one sided. 

When you reach this point you can write it off and close your mind to it as done and dusted. 

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Thanks for all your replies, everyone! I see diverse points of view here, which is nice - I think it's a pretty common problem in the self-actualization journey and it's definitely worth discussing.

@Leo Gura Great insights, thank you. Also, the rule of thumb is really useful! 

Recently I've been working a lot on grounding my views in direct experience - hand observation and such. I hope one day I'll manage to crawl out of the sea of bullshit ;)

@universe @Charlotte Regarding why I even bother "fighting"... it's a great exercise for me, or at least I'm trying to see it this way. Thanks to those debates with my friend, I've really made some things clear for myself. When you actually try to articulate your opinions (and I must say I haven't really been doing this before), you start to think stuff through and you can discover many things about your worldview and yourself :) 

I mean, sometimes these fight can become nasty - I'm getting more grounded in green everyday, and I've recently noticed that I'm really fed up with racism, homophobia, sexism and all that - which is the reason why I am sometimes upset. As @tsuki said, maybe I shouldn't be doing this with my friends, because I am souring the relationship up or sth. And I agree. But most of the times we're not taking these things personally. Or maybe we are and I'm deluding myself. Who knows :P 

@Tetcher Great point! I've really considered your opinion and yes, I think I consider green thinking superior to blue, at least to some degree. I mean, it's higher consciousness - I wouldn't ever want to regress back to blue. However, I don't think that my blue friend "got to me" or "won the discussion" and it's not why I posted here in the first place. It's just that I had this internal dilemma whether I should yet again go back and explore his ideology (which I have evolved of about 2 years ago).

@tsuki Great advice, thank you! Yes, I transitioned out of right-wing ideology and yea, I might possibly have some blind spots. However, I think that my worldview is pretty integrated right now, as debates with my friend really helped me consider many of these blind spots and put things together.

@Aeris I acknowledge the fact that this green worldview as a whole isn't the end for me - I'll evolve out of it, I'm constantly looking forward towards yellow. But for now, I am happy that I am grounded in green - this is a big thing for me, because I see how much I've evolved in the last years.

@Quicksilver Good point, thanks!

Edited by Cykaaaa
typo (added "and" in a sentence)

Enslavement by illusion is comfortable. It is the liberation by Truth that people fear.

The false dissolves when it is discovered. 

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@Cykaaaa yeah I see what you mean. When you are questioned it forces oneself to look inward and question which can be extremely beneficial. 

Have you thought about doing it in a more productive less hostile setting? Such as you questioning yourself? 

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6 hours ago, Charlotte said:

I've often wondered... Does arguing/fighting with a close minded person demonstrate close minded qualities in oneself? It's like a fool arguing with a fool, they get on well. 

So it is really open mindedness? 

Exactly 

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@Charlotte Well of course, I've been contemplating various things and views for some time now. I mean, I'm not consistent yet, I'm doing it every once in a while. I already have many habits that I'm trying to maintain (like morning/evening routine, kriya yoga, reading books and studying daily, going to the gym, and even more) - and I've been very successful so far! I'm 17 right now and this summer has been absolutely great for me - I've had a lot of free time to learn about myself and worked towards my highest vision. I'm pretty proud of myself ^_^

You can be sure that after I become more comfortable with all my other important habits, daily contemplation and questioning my worldview and assumptions is coming next ;) 


Enslavement by illusion is comfortable. It is the liberation by Truth that people fear.

The false dissolves when it is discovered. 

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Try to focus instead on:

I always say to do a life purpose taking into consideration Spiral Dynamics and Maslow. It's easier to show what is going on in your life than to tell. Doing this is like reflecting back on your life. It's just like writing a resume (CV), but you create your own job. However, for example, the ppl who are still in school without any work experience, don't know how it's like to work. Some do not know how to get a job other than something that they don't like. Gaining life experience by using maps like SD and Maslow is the way to go. The challenging part is to find a life purpose that will incorporate non-duality later on when it happens to you. For example, if you run a fast food, chances are, you won't be able to talk about non-duality there. I like how Leo did his life purpose in the beginning. He was focused on life coaching. That really helped me. Great tips. And, I also noticed that he briefly mentioned ox's tail. I had to look up what that was, and when I looked at the whole story told by Shinzen Young, I realized that I experienced it already. Those are the pros. The pros are easy to talk about.

The con is, to me, Leo has to focus on showing ppl how to make a high conscious life purpose that will make a living instead of going too much into non-duality. Self-transendence is at the top of Maslow's. It will not come into a person's life just because. 

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