Wasem

Islam is an 'undone' project, a big mess on the spiral

10 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Watching Leo's mini-series on spiral dynamics, and also his video on "Understanding Islam" I feel there are many links missing. 

I used to think that Islam is a stage-blue kind of system, yet this is only because I knew little about stage-red and stage-purple. 

Islam has not dissolved tribalism, yet referred to it as "a universal truth". This is obvious in places like the Arab Peninsula, where tribes are still exist and celebrated as a part of the system.  Here in Iraq, it has been taken for granted that tribes exist, and it is very common to whiteness their influence, also it is common for some of them to demonstrate tribal revenge acts they do towards each others. Here you can find tens of videos for these acts (locally known as "Tribal Strike") happens on a daily basis in Iraq.

Tribal men today drive Toyota Lexus cars, and are invited to conferences to "maintain societal peace in Iraq", (which is ironic), As per the following photograph.

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This video shows a motorcade of an Iraqi tribal head: People have much in common with any other tribes, yet they enjoy the luxuries just because there is oil and all the money that comes out of it.

Back to the subject. It seems to me that Islam also includes elements of purple, mythical stories and incidents are countless in the holy text book of Quran.  And literally, many of the stories in Quran is all about spirits and magic, mythical creatures and so on.

Also Islam includes Red elements, and its founder is widely considered as a war lord, who "conquered" many states during his life time, and after him, there were many kings and Khalifs who did the same and occupied, annexed wide lands, spanning from Chiana into the Atlantic. Red war lords are highly praised in the Islamic culture, and under the right circumstances, Red-Muslim groups can be activated again, it happens all the time, even recently, examples are Alqaeda and ISIS. It is not because these people prefer to do the "smaller Jihad", but it is obvious that Red culture is a part of Islam itself. 

Sam Harris speaks about that (Sorry @Leo Gura I see that you ignore the purple and red elements in Islam, or you do not address them enough)

Only after that comes the Blue portion of Islam, example when Saddam Hussain was in power, he was trying to activate blue MEME, and all his authoritarian regime with everything he did, he was still trying to reach a Blue society (also through Islamic teachings). Other example are some of the Islamic kings that followed Muhammed.

Islam also has Orange elements in it maybe?? because its holy text deals with finances, also Green, Yellow, Turquoise.. I am sure if someone studies it, will find many stages embedded within its texts.

Edited by Wasem

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Of course Islam, like any religion, is all over the Spiral. But also highly centered around Blue. You'd have to look at it on a local regional level if you are serious about understanding it.

Sam Harris does not understand this. He tends to lump all of Islam together as bad and barbaric. He conflates the content of Islam with various stages of development.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

He conflates the content of Islam with various stages of development.

The content itself is not bad and barbaric. It's the interpretation that is.

The interpretation is highly dependent on one's level of cognitive development, and one's own self-biases.

Islam started at Purple/Red and developed into Red/Blue in Mohammad's life. It kept growing until it reached Green, and then it started backsliding. Stage Yellow wasn't able to manifest as there was no internet. Societies used to develop in one direction and then collapse after Green. Ibn Khaldun (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun) in his theory about the development of society, considered what Spiral Dynamics refers to as stage Orange, as the golden age of any given society. This golden age is characterised by success and prosperity, and is followed by a Green society that is used to live in luxury, and therefore lazy, weak, and ignorant, which will lead society to collapse mostly by invasion or division.

As you can see, that's what happened with Islam, after centuries of prosperity, started dividing and fighting with itself, until its last remnants became so weak (Ottomans), and then between the industrial evolution in Europe and the world-war two, the state dissolved as it never was.

The way I see it is that most of Islam remained as principles (civilisation) as apparent in stage Blue, perhaps because it is the center of gravity of the whole spiral. However, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Wahabism, Muslim Brotherhood, etc... are stage Red/Orange interpretations minus having visionary leaders like Mohammad.

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3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course Islam, like any religion, is all over the Spiral. But also highly centered around Blue. You'd have to look at it on a local regional level if you are serious about understanding it.

Sam Harris does not understand this. He tends to lump all of Islam together as bad and barbaric. He conflates the content of Islam with various stages of development.

The thing is that we are debating about "Islam". You claim that it is highly centered around blue, but I claim that it can be centered around any of the MEMEs on the spiral starting from purple until Turquoise (As far as I can tell). How can an ISIS fighter claims he is a Muslim while a Sufi also claims he is a Muslim? it is because the structure of the religion can enable or activate different parts of the spiral almost to an equal degree. The founder himself, he experienced many MEMEs during his life time. He started as a shepherd, then a merchant managing his wife's fortune (equivalent of orange for that time), then a war lord, then a legislator and a president of the first ever Islamic state, and he also had a taste of mysticism and had countless mystical experience during his life time. 

Therefore, Muslims of today, they can be selective when choosing which part of Islam to activate. People at United Arab Emirates, the activate the (Orange MEME) with the invention of "Islamic banking", while ISIS activates Red wen enslaving minorities, and so on. 

It is because all the life of Muhammed is considered by Muslims valid and perfect in every possible way, it becomes an excuse for anyone to mold and produce his own version of Islam on any position of the spiral.

It would be interesting to learn how can someone decide that Islam is centered around Blue. Is it by measuring the ratio of teachings that rhymes with Blue?

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I have personally much experience with Islam, both the Sunni and Shia. (My dad is Shia, my mum is Sunni)

Islam is indeed its own section. Even though the sunni majority is split in many countries, you can see that the populations of these countries identify mostly as one group: sunni muslims. For example the Turkish president and the Qatar emir get along pretty well.

However things are changing in the Middle-East. Everyone is witness of this, including the future big boys China and Russia. With ISIL being looked at as an enemy of all muslims and weapon enforcements coming from all sides of the Middle-East to these terrorist groups, it is clear that things are shaking.

Where as in the past muslims would unite to fight the Jewish population in Israel, the crown-prince of Saudi-Arabia has different ideas. His drive for power in a new, millennial way has made many conservative muslims skeptic about him. Giving women the permission to ride cars is a huge leap to Green, coming all the way from Blue/Red (and a huge chunk of Purple).

Right now everyone there is looking at the Saudi sheikhs and the Iran government. They are the USA and the USSR of the Middle-East in terms of power. Both strive to be the capital of Islam, making their countries really popular amongst the Islamic community. Which side you pick, doesn’t really matter. This strive for power from both countries can only lead to a huge war. Be it in Syria or Iraq, everyone knows that Saudi and Iran are controlling the puppets (terrorist organizations). 

The muslim people themselves are indeed very different from each other. Much more than they want to admit. The culture in Turkey alone is different than the Arabic people. Put Iran in the mix as the capital of Shia Islam and you have a mix of different collective minds fighting each other. The reason why right now the crown-prince and the leader of Iran hold so much power is because it is build solely on Red. Something that effects every muslim in the Middle-East. Playing in people’s fears, telling them how the USA is ruining everything, praising Allah in open air and really investing in the military makes them look trustworthy. 

Although the terrorist groups still exist and will last for a long time, they won’t have much power. The Saudis and the Iranian government are the fuel for these terrorist groups. Without their support, they will cease to exist. This however will not change the collective mindset of the ordinary people there. Everyone will have the same fears, same extremism and same violent way to deal with people they don’t like (last one doesn’t count for EVERYONE there but surely for a large amount).

I would love to see Islam reach Turquoise, I am really curious as to how it would look like. Everyone turns to Sufis? 

(My mum is stage Blue and said this about Rumi: He was a good man. Good muslim. The thing was that he... like... LOVED Allah. Kind of weird to think about. He did much for Islam, but I think the current big teachers are better than him. He was too much NOT in the real world. Not a REAL muslim.)

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Posted (edited)

What is " I S L A M " ?

 

What I do know and practice is the "Islam" that was brought by prophet Muhammad a.k.a The Quran & his sunna. He left us with those two things. 

There are many americans muslims, you can find muslims everywhere. It is not a trait or a custom or a culture. It's a universal thing spread all across cultures. It's like a cherry on the top. What do you call me then? I'm not an arab!(though I do have a little mix) hehe

I think it's very shallow to categorize people based on their religion. Religion is rather universal. 

I can understand spiral dynamic but it's way too shallow & limited to explain human values and system. You won't understand humans unless you've lived through every stages.

Actually the only way I think spiral dynamic can ever benefit anyone/make sense is if you don't create 10dualities out of it. 

 

Btw I only know :

  • Prayer
  • Purification process
  • Fasting
  • How much to pay for the alms
  • How to do the pilgrimage (I've done the lesser pilgrimage twice, one when I was a kid and the other after highschool) 

That's all I know. But this year, I learn so much about my own religion it's like a new world~ 

 

^This,

is just a tiny aspect of my life. I think it took less than an hour for the five times prayer per day. What do you think muslims do for the other 23hours? In 23years? 

 

It's different for each individual. Each household. Each culture. Each country. Each stages. Like a fingerprint~ 

 

The only way you can know this, is by experiencing everything yourself. First hand. Experiencing life~ 

Travelling with an open mind. But your experience will stay on the surface level if you don't master the language. I wish my arabic is good.

 

Maybe spiral dynamic works only for "projections" onto politics & government. It doens't work on individual people unless you don't create 10dualities out of it. It doesn't make sense to me. I can make it make sense but it doesn't make sense in my actual system. 

It's like creating a veil on top of a veil. 

Reductionistic

........

Back to the topic, real islam as brought by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) will be highest on the spiral. Because it is the combination of all previous scriptures. Integral to it's core.

 

It's not the spiral that are wrong, it's how you use it.  

It's not the prophetic traditions that are wrong, but the inability of the muslims to practice it the way the prophet do. 

Ken Wilber got something interesting there. AQAL means intellect in arabic. 

 

 

 

@Wasemdone?

 

Back then, before the prophet, the arabs kills their babies. Living in tribes, alcoholic, they live in the age of ignorance. But then, peace came and they became good people. (But there are good people too prior to the prophet).

 

Tribes is not a bad thing. Only bad if it's against each other. Some arabs will call you based on your tribes, but not in a demeaning way, it's just fun to know your roots. Which family you're from, which roots etc. 

That's what I see when I went to their house. If you don't know your family roots they will think you're weird... 

I don't know anything about Iraq though...

Edited by Angelite

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On 16‏/8‏/2019 at 5:41 PM, Angelite said:

Tribes is not a bad thing. Only bad if it's against each other. Some arabs will call you based on your tribes, but not in a demeaning way, it's just fun to know your roots. Which family you're from, which roots etc. 

Thanks for explaining, some of the things I already know. Yet, according to what we are taught here, tribes create dualities, it creates ego. The teaching of actualized.org contradicts that. Leo wants us to reach to a degree that we become one with the universe, yet the idea of tribes creates an illusion of duality. How is that any good?

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@Wasem this is what happen when your "God" is not the highest God of all creations~ 

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23 hours ago, Wasem said:

Thanks for explaining, some of the things I already know. Yet, according to what we are taught here, tribes create dualities, it creates ego. The teaching of actualized.org contradicts that. Leo wants us to reach to a degree that we become one with the universe, yet the idea of tribes creates an illusion of duality. How is that any good?

Nothing is good or bad. It's all relative. There are healthy and unhealthy aspects to tribes. The unhealthy aspect is that they tend to go to war with each other due to an "us vs them" worldview.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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The Quran is written by many people, although Muslims don't want to admit this generally. So you have ego's from different stages writing the Quran. Some red elements, some purple, but also some at higher levels. And don't forget that a lot of the stuff written in the Quran were probably useful to add at that time. Just to fix some problems that are now completely overlooked. 

The Quran is like a Bollywood movie. In these movies there are parts for children, parts for adults, cheap entertainment, some dance, some philosophical parts. So the whole family can enjoy a movie. With the Quran it is the same. You can just look for the parts which fit to your 'stage', 'level' or what you need in your life at this very moment. That's why a lot of people are attracted to the Quran and that's why you have all those different sects and mystical groups like the Sufis. 

 

 

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