Drugs Legalization in Poor Countries

[Leo Gura]

@outlandish But the really interesting question is this:

Let's say I'm a kid in high school and I want to try some heroin to see if I like it. Under your ideal system, would I be able to go buy some legally from the government or from a pharmacy?

If not, then there will be a black market and cartels.

The problem I see with clinics currently is that they only cater to already addicted people, not to new customers.

[outlandish]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@outlandish But the really interesting question is this:

Let's say I'm a kid in high school and I want to try some heroin to see if I like it. Under your ideal system, would I be able to go buy some legally from the government or from a pharmacy?

If not, then there will be a black market and cartels.

I don't know what the ideal system is TBH, I just think the Portuguese model is a step in the right direction.

I don't think a teen should ever be given access to heroin, just like we don't give teens booze or weed (in countries where it's legal). So my answer is no, if you're a kid in high school you shouldn't be able to buy heroin from the gov.

If we decriminalize and regulate heroin, it could squash the black market and cartels to the point where teens can't access heroin at all. Similar to how teens have a harder time buying booze than weed (in pre-weed legalization places) - there just isn't really a black market for alcohol anymore.

[Leo Gura]

@outlandish Okay, but what if the kid turns 21? Can he buy some then?

Teens can buy smokes at 18. And there's definitely an underage drinking problem in America.

[Damien]

@TheAlchemist

8 hours ago, TheAlchemist said:

@Leo Gura Maybe have(legal and government funded) injection sites where addicts are given clean needles and safe dosages of clean versions of the drug. They should be funded by the government and the addicts should be given job opportunities/rehabilitation and harm reduction guidance in those injection sites. Has worked quite well everywhere I know of where it's been tried

 

This is the current set up where I live (Geneva, Switzerland). You can go there, get registered, shoot with clean needles and then focus on getting your life back on track. I often see people go there in the morning and then head straight to work. There is also a lot of social programs available in that place. An average of 140 people a day visit it, they use mostly cocaine and heroin.

This program was implemented following an opioid crisis that hit Switzerland in the late 90s early 2000s and led to the decriminalization of consuming. This place is by no mean sketchy or scary, you just see people get in there with a slight hurry and come back out at a more leisurely pace. It has proven to reduce the evitable fatalities, illnesses, and criminal behavior linked to such addictions. 

From my point of view, it seems to be an excellent tool for keeping people from falling off the edge of society and monitoring drug use threw time. 

I grew up knowing about this program and took it for granted. I came across this map confirming that it is such drug consumption rooms are a stage green initiative. 

 https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1MEbZ_OJyO2GVvYrN7mN8aymx2LA&hl=fr&usp=sharing

[Leo Gura]

@Damien Yes, that's a great model which should be more widely adopted and combined with psychedelics.

Unfortunately conservatives hate this idea. They want to punish such people because they are "evil-doers." It falls under their "law and order" dogma.

They use this against liberals by saying, "Look, those crazy Communist liberals want to give heroin out in your neighborhood for free."

[tedens]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Damien Yes, that's a great model which should be more widely adopted and combined with psychedelics.

Unfortunately conservatives hate this idea. They want to punish such people because they are "evil-doers." It falls under their "law and order" dogma.

They use this against liberals by saying, "Look, those crazy Communist liberals want to give heroin out in your neighborhood for free."

It is a program on addictive substances. So for psychedelics  will be created religious program.

[outlandish]

On 8/9/2019 at 2:03 PM, Leo Gura said:

@outlandish Okay, but what if the kid turns 21? Can he buy some then?

Teens can buy smokes at 18. And there's definitely an underage drinking problem in America.

You can't make a perfect system, there will always be problems and a tradeoff between impinging on personal liberties and protecting individuals from danger.

But yes, in my opinion, in the very distant future, allowing adults at some point to have access to clean and safe drugs supplied by a controlled infrastructure would be preferable to the current system where there is a thriving and violent black market that's funded by drug money, and then people's lives getting ruined (and taxpayer money leeched) by the criminal justice system. I don't know what the exact optimal age for that would be, but maybe it would be 21 years old. Intuitively, this is preferable to 16 for sure. Maybe it should be even older, I don't know the optimal age. If you made it too old, you'd not be cutting out the black market, so there's a tricky balance there.

Maybe humans are on average not advanced enough to handle legal recreational everything and the black market actually is the optimal system so that only the most rebellious and self-destructive individuals are able to access things like heroin. I don't know, so I don't think society needs to jump head first into this kind of thing. In my opinion we take baby steps towards it, which we're already doing with cannabis, and soon with soft psychedelics, and pull back if it's not going to work out.

What I do know is that Portugal is a pretty damn interesting case study that the rest of the world can look at.

In Portugal if you get caught by the cops with some drugs (they still have black market drugs around), you are forced to see medical professionals for treatment and counselling, your parents are notified. It's an extremely embarrassing situation, rather than a situation where your life gets ruined. Drug crime is way down (obviously), HIV infection rates have plummeted, addiction rates are way down, jails are not so full. The stats are amazing, it's been a huge success. Finally, society has a handle on controlling these extremely addictive and dangerous drugs, rather than having them run wild. It's really something the rest of the world needs to look at.

[abrakamowse]

For me it sucks that is so difficult to try some drug for spiritual purposes. I really didn't do it because I don't know anything about how to get them.

That's why I am stuck in blue/orange stage.

Edited August 13, 2019 by abrakamowse

[elsiewil]

Should drugs be legalized?

Proponents of the move to legalize argue that drug use should be an individual’s choice and the government should not control it in any way. This argument has two key shortcomings. First, we cannot just do anything we want with our bodies, just the same way a person cannot walk down the street naked, or say anything we want anywhere. The government has to step in at some point. Drug use is obviously more harmful than these two inconceivable acts. Secondly, when people opt to do “whatever they want” with their bodies, such as drug use, it not only affects them but also those around them. 
In addition, legalization of drugs would encourage sellers to recruit children sellers who can easily convince their peers to use the substances, hence increasing drug penetration into society. As long as drugs are not legalized, such a move is very unlikely or can occur only in small scales.

[Hello from Russia]

Ehhh, and in Russia you end up in a prison for 2-3 just for a simple marijuana use. Already randomly got checked by cops 2 times for drugs, although I didn't try anything in my life yet, even marijuana. 

[Carl-Richard]

On 8.8.2019 at 8:54 PM, AudibleLocket said:

True.

This is what 99% of the weed consumed here looks like.

 

That looks like a horse took a shit in the road and a car drove over it lol

[Preety_India]

Hard drugs shouldn't be decriminalized 

 

The real culprit is corruption. 

To fight drugs, you need honesty, a hard spine and a guillotine. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Carl-Richard]

6 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Hard drugs shouldn't be decriminalized 

Alcohol too?

[Preety_India]

@Carl-Richard  I don't consider alcohol as a hard drug. In fact it's the lowest on the list. Yes alcohol does harm but not as much harm as potent drugs like cocaine, meth and heroin. 

Alcoholics can be freed from their addiction. But drug addiction to "those" drugs is something else entirely. 

These drugs shouldn't be decriminalized. 

Alcohol should be criminalized for kids and teens because decriminalizing it for kids can be absolutely insane 

 

[Carl-Richard]

46 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@Carl-Richard  I don't consider alcohol as a hard drug. In fact it's the lowest on the list. Yes alcohol does harm but not as much harm as potent drugs like cocaine, meth and heroin. 

You'd be surprised how bad alcohol really is. I'm taking a class in developmental psychology and the professor said that alcohol is by far the worst drug to take when you're pregnant. Quote from Jordan Peterson, who has done research on alcohol:

Quote

“If we had to make a bad drug legal,” says Peterson, “the worst choice was alcohol. And I’m saying that as somewhat of a fan of alcohol. It’s a bad drug, man. It’s the only drug we know that actually makes people aggressive, so you see a massive effect on crime rates. Half the people who murder someone are drunk. And half the people who are murdered are drunk.”

 

46 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Alcoholics can be freed from their addiction. But drug addiction to "those" drugs is something else entirely. 

The addiction profile for alcohol is certainly not negligible either (rank 3):

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Drugs-Ranked-by-the-Salerian-Addictive-Potential-Score-A-This-Table-Presents-the-SAP_tbl1_272481174

"Virtually all drugs causing drug addiction increase the dopamine release in the mesolimbic pathway,[83] in addition to their specific effects." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction

In that sense, alcohol, heroin and cocaine aren't so different after all. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Opo]

On 8/8/2019 at 8:54 PM, AudibleLocket said:

True.

This is what 99% of the weed consumed here looks like.

 

 

That's a real problem, people are not interest in the quality.

 

So i cant see how government can sell at cheaper prices than this.

1Gram costs 0.50 Reais = 0,125 Dollars .

I think a good way to turn this around would be allowing people to plant their own weed at home.

It's pressed so it's easier to transport. Doesn't mean it's bad weed. 

 

Depends on the amount of thc. It will be more expensive but if there is more thc for the price people will like it. 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Opo

[Preety_India]

@Carl-Richard alcohol can be consumed in lower amounts without being addicted. 

Most addicts live long just like smokers. 

I had a neighbor who was an alcoholic when I was a kid, and he lived into his 70s. He had been drinking since young age, so alcohol is really not that bad 

The data collected is probably from severe alcoholics. Mild alcoholics still make it through for years. Seen it myself. 

Drug addiction to cocaine/meth/heroin has no comparison to alcohol. An overdose can be fatal and result in death instantly. 

And these drugs are severely addictive. Unlike with alcohol where dependency happens over time. 

People die eventually because of alcohol. People die suddenly because of drugs 

 

Also some alcohol is always present in foods like fermented foods and ripened fruits. Can't be that dangerous 

Alcohol is only dangerous when the addiction is severe and huge amounts have been consumed. It then reaches lethal levels. 

People who consume alcohol within moderate limits with controlled addiction tolerate quite well 

Look at Britain 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Preety_India

[Carl-Richard]

13 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

alcohol can be consumed in lower amounts without being addicted. 

You can make this argument for any drug really. People tend to do a lot of the drug once they have it, sure, but what about binge drinking? It's a staple of college culture.

 

15 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Most addicts live long just like smokers. 

I had a neighbor who was an alcoholic when I was a kid, and he lived into his 70s. He had been drinking since young age, so alcohol is really not that bad 

The data collected is probably from severe alcoholics. Mild alcoholics still make it through for years. Seen it myself. 

In the grand scheme of things, it's not a particular drug that kills you: it's a particular lifestyle. The people you see on the street aren't just doing one drug. They're multi-drug users, desperate, poor, broken, and not least malnourished (big factor in their health), and they will take anything they get their hands on; be it alcohol, heroin, coke, xanax etc.. If you listen to this man's life story (eloquent man), you'll get the point:

 

23 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

The data collected is probably from severe alcoholics. Mild alcoholics still make it through for years. Seen it myself. 

That is an assumption, but it's also not really relevant. Believe it or not, many people do all kinds of drugs without getting addicted, ending up on the streets and dying before they're 30. Hamilton Morris has probably done more types of drugs than you even know existed, and he is still a highly functional human being:

1:07:00 Interesting talk about amphetamine vs methamphetamine (he has tried both).

 

27 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

Drug addiction to cocaine/meth/heroin has no comparison to alcohol. An overdose can be fatal and result in death instantly. 

And these drugs are severely addictive. Unlike with alcohol where dependency happens over time. 

People die eventually because of alcohol. People die suddenly because of drugs.

None of this is true. If you do one shot too much, you can enter a coma, stop breathing, or have a heart attack or seizure.

 

41 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Also some alcohol is always present in foods like fermented foods and ripened fruits. Can't be that dangerous 

The strongest poisons in the world are also found in fruits. The naturalist argument is not a strong one.

 

42 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Alcohol is only dangerous when the addiction is severe and huge amounts have been consumed. It then reaches lethal levels. 

People who consume alcohol within moderate limits with controlled addiction tolerate quite well 

Same with any other drug. That is why doctors can prescribe you things like morphine and amphetamine, even though you can overdose on those aswell.

[Opo]

@Preety_India What kind of fucked up drug kills you when you stop taking it? 

I know people that did so much drugs their teeth fell out and they are still smarter than average person and doing fine. 

[Preety_India]

@Opo  why does it matter if someone is smart or not. 

Drugs are dangerous. I think people knew that. 

Psychedelics are different than drugs. 

Drugs that are extremely hallucinatory and addictive aren't exactly psychedelics.