Need some advice on communication.

[Truth Addict]

I notice in myself many times when I argue for my perspective that I tend to want to be right and win and probably change others.

I'm not sure where this is stemming from, but I'd say it's related to insecurities and the traces of dogma, both of which I am working on resolving.

I notice even when I see the other person starting to accept my perspective, that I tend to want to knock it out completely, not necessarily to feel superior, but sometimes to make sure that we're on the same page, which seems quite nonsensical to me right now.

Some people say: "Honesty is the best policy", and I agree. But also, sometimes complete honesty triggers the ego's defences and creates walls that hinder the communications that are meant to be communicated in the first place.
On the one hand, I want to share my perspectives and I want them to be accepted.

On the other hand though, it's easy to lose focus and start to argue just for the sake of arguing (that's one big downside to philosophy, is that it's highly prone to arguments).

It's the same issue that I asked for help with earlier this year, although I have made a huge progress, I guess (you wouldn't believe how blunt I was). But I still think there's a lot more for me to learn. I see how other members here respond and I say to myself: "Damn it! How do they do it?"

I don't lack compassion. I just lack the ability to demonstrate it.

So, my main points are:

• If anyone had gone through something similar and had gotten out, I would like to hear some advice.
• Awareness alone is curative, as Leo puts it. But I think there's a limit to that, and I think that I have reached it, unless there is something that I'm missing which I have no idea it exists.
• Is this a lack of experience problem? Will more experience help me with solving this issue once and for all?
• I am an introvert, I don't know if that's relevant, and I don't know a lot about personality theories, I don't know if they're worth looking into. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
• My main concern with any communication I make is to communicate my ideas as clearly as possible, but the ego and old patterns interfere and lead me astray. How do/did you manage to solve this issue?

[Shadowraix]

I used to argue with people a lot on Facebook. I still do to some extent when it's about trying to make people aware of when they are causing suffering unnecessarily or when they demonize something and can't see beyond their ego perspective. It really highlights my roots in green and resistant towards those who inflict suffering but proclaim righteousness. 

I've calmed down a lot though. Awareness is still the key answer here. I step back and ask "Did this convey what I want it to?" "Was my approach productive to my goal?" "Did I understand where they come from?" "What is my ego doing here?" and so on. This kind of stepping back would change my approach from a direct forcing one to a more gentler one. Sometimes you won't reach consensus and to accept that I just breathe, let go, and do something else. 

Your intent is everything. Shift your intent to giving information than trying to prove your stance as correct. Mutual understanding of perspectives even if there is no stance change is great. It plants your ideas as seeds which may bloom as they grow. That was a big benefit of all my arguing. Later on I understand the other side of those I argued with and could adapt it into my life. 

Big picture thinking instead of little. Hope this helps. ?

Edited June 19, 2019 by Shadowraix

[Dan502]

When it comes to personality, have you taken a Big 5 test to find out your level of agreeableness?

When you encounter something you disagree with, do you look for what truth lies within or behind it and make an assessment of the person's level of awareness/understanding so as to contextualise the message?

I really like that you've made this post, I think the need to confront others verbally and how we do so is a major area of constant work for all of us and despite responding, I certainly don't assume myself to be any more advanced at this than you.

Sorry if I'm asking things you're already aware of.

I would expect introversion itself to help with communication awareness as it tends to go hand in hand with reflection, hesitation and, so I hear, self-awareness.

I like what @Shadowraix said about intent.

Humility. Has Leo ever done a video on humility? 

Edited June 19, 2019 by Dan502

[Commodent]

I can relate. I used to get in arguments all the time on Reddit and sometimes it would get really, really heated. I think I finally decided to stop it when I became aware of how out of whack it put me emotionally.

I think it boils down to competition vs. collaberation. The second it turns into a you vs. me thing people will get defensive and won't listen. People want to make their own decisions, so when you threaten their autonomy by trying to change them and their opinions things will easily go south. So yeah, I think what has helped me is trying to adopt a more collaborative mindset and curbing the impulses that want to turn it into a you vs. me thing. And also, avoiding arguments with people who seem to be looking for a fight.

I have always had a quite strong need to be right, probably because where I grew up being right was the only thing that mattered. It was an authoritarian, controlling environment where the right to have your needs met was determined by how well you were able to justify them and defend against any counter-arguments. This need to be right has in my case diminished over the past two years or so, so now when someone disagree with me I'm more like "whatever". I actually think a very important part of getting rid of this need to be right is having a stable core that is not rooted in beliefs which can easily be disproven. A firm knowing that you can live and do well without those beliefs, because you have a deep sense of who you are and that can no one ever take away from you. I think journaling and emotional work is what helped me get in contact with this inner being, so that might be worth trying out.

[bejapuskas]

@Truth Addict  Have you seen Leo's latest video about relativism? It really helped me, I was very judgemental about other perspectives and world views, but then, when Leo put some light on them, it all seems more understandable and acceptable. Arguing definitely is a defense mechanism, I guess you should be honest about what your ego sees as real, but the ego is just a made up thing, so is its worldview, so this is not the real „being honest“ if you know what I mean, you would have to dig deeper.

[AudibleLocket]

i Am myself trying to be a better comunicatior as well. Some aspects that have been helping me :

• Be present in the moment. Sometimes we try to predict what others will say in the next moment. Stop it , and listen before talking.
• Stay RELAX. Relaxation = Conscious. When your ego start to defend itself, it's very common to start acumulating tension in your shoulders, belly and face, just let it go and speak calm. 
• See the others point of view. Every person has a perspective of world view, dont try to impose your "only true". People are what they are, we have to celebrate this diferences and love them. Love = The will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth - Scott Peck. Sometimes we want to be right in a pointless discution, just for the sake of the ego.

 

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

In an online course Cynthia Bourgeault had a couple of years ago there was a pretty high standard put forth in the forum there. I found myself breaking that standard time and again. It made me see myself a little better. It was not a very comfortable feeling,,,,,

Anyway, this was the standard-

The word "respect" literally means "to look twice," and respect is at the core of this fourth Obligolnian striving. Today, after beginning your morning with a period of meditation, I invite you to look at the systems in which you are embedded with intentional respect. Rather than moving too quickly to criticize and judge, you can exercise respect by practicing conscious speech. Before rushing to respond, stop, ground, take a couple of conscious breaths, then ask yourself these four questions:

Does it need to be said?
Does it need to be said now?
Is it my place to say it?
Can it be said with kindness?

Allow these four precepts to guide your conscious speech today and see what changes you can detect in your relations with the world, both inwardly and outwardly.

[Truth Addict]

Thank you all for your generous replies ❤️

@Shadowraix Sometimes it is the case as you mentioned. I reflect everytime before I post something, and I try my best to keep it precise and to the point. It helps, I think I should stick to it.

@Dan502 I just took the test. I have never done it before, but I am pretty sure my answers would have been very different even one year ago. Here's my result:

I am very humble. But I also have a big ego ? I'm working on both ends.

7 hours ago, Dan502 said:

When you encounter something you disagree with, do you look for what truth lies within or behind it and make an assessment of the person's level of awareness/understanding so as to contextualise the message?

I am struggling with that like 20% of the time.

@Commodent It all makes sense ? I try to ground myself in truth as much as I can. I still don't want throw beliefs away, because I know that beliefs affect reality. I feel responsible for trying to make the world a better place. I'm assuming this has something to do with my issue.

[Truth Addict]

@bejapuskas I haven't watched it yet, only like 35 minutes of. It's still on the list.

I agree with you to some degree. I don't consider arguing a defense mechanism, I think it's a way of survival, although the lines between survival and defense mechanisms are blurry. But I use the word survival because to me it seems more neutral than defense mechanisms.

I don't think I should get rid of the ego. I think I should try to make it behave better.

@AudibleLocket Thank you, those were the things that I have been working through and still do to some degree. I will try to keep them in mind.

@Zigzag Idiot That's amazing! I kind of ask myself questions similar to the ones you mentioned everytime before I post something. I just don't formalize them. Results are getting better, but I think I'm still short to where others are. I will try to keep that in mind.

Edited June 19, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Commodent]

@Truth Addict  Yes, beliefs are certainly valuable. I have lots of them. But no matter how useful they are, they're still just one facet of who you are. The more self-exploration you do, the wider your sense of self becomes. What was previously a significant part of who you considered yourself to be will become much less significant once your sense of self broadens. Meaning you have much more to rely on if one part of your identity were to get squashed (i.e. beliefs). That's at least how I experience it.

[Truth Addict]

@Commodent It's tricky, because my sense of self that I feel in others is the thing that is driving me towards communicating with them in the first place. So, the question becomes: Which is better in this specific case? Putting my ego aside and letting others' egos have it? Or the other way around? Which one will actually lead to better outcomes?

Edited June 19, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Elisabeth]

@Zigzag Idiot This is awesome. I bookmarked it. 

@Truth Addict It's very hard to give general communication advice (although some people here show it can be done). Would you like feedback on any specific situations? 

[Truth Addict]

@Elisabeth Thank you.

I like the idea and I appreciate your offer, but I don't have anything in mind right now.

Perhaps you could memorise my username and give me feedback if you ever came across something bad I might say in the future? But that's too much to ask, and I don't place much hope on actualizing it.

Edited June 19, 2019 by Truth Addict

[DrewNows]

I’ve noticed your need to be right relates to your addiction to truth ?

Do you have trouble admitting when you’re wrong? Do you believe every word you say defines you in some form or fashion?

Perhaps an attachment to thought/thoughts-self, observe yourself and you will know the intentions and reasons behind your righteousness 

many subconscious needs and beliefs you hold so it’s good to bring them to the surface through sitting with the feelings you experience during these instances when you need to be right 

(again maybe speaking outta my ass but take what you find helpful dude, and laugh at the dumb jokes if possible )  

 

[Elisabeth]

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

 

Perhaps you could memorise my username and give me feedback if you ever came across something bad I might say in the future? But that's too much to ask, and I don't place much hope on actualizing it.

Or perhaps you could update the thread from time to time with something specific, then people (not just me) can offer you other communication options. I would feel out of place positioning myself as an expert.

I have one actually: I noticed your misunderstanding with Key Elements in your thread about locking threads. You missed her point, and she was not willing to clarify. From my perspective, she was being a bit harsh. You were communicating on point, asking her to give you the link between "people with mental illness can't be helped on the forum" and "threads should be closed". What you missed is that your notion of mental illness seems very simplistic and black and white (in that discussion at least). I can't really blame her for not explaining further. To be able to be explicit, she would probably have to write a page-long treatise about boundaries, the blurry line between health and illness, relationships, boundaries again.(*) So in that thread, you were on too different a level of expertise. 

(*)I'm not totally sure about her point either, but I did make the painful experience that trying to help someone can make you drown in their shit, so I think that's what she was getting at. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by Elisabeth

[Truth Addict]

@DrewNows

I was a lot worse, trust me. I'm now like 20-30% of what I was before.

I have actually admitted that I was wrong many times here and everywhere else.

I'm not sure, but I think that you think I'm taking things way too seriously. I do when I discuss them, of course, otherwise  I would sound drunk just like you do right now. Sorry buddy ??

When my beliefs are shown to me wrong, I feel challenged, and recently, after a lot of work, I started admitting it.

Thanks for the help buddy, I'll make sure I check all of what you said.

@Elisabeth Ah, great example! I never said that I want Leo to make the forum a place for treating mental illnesses. I don't know where she got that idea from. I did say though that we should be more careful with such people and try to gently point them to professionals instead of locking their threads. She read some of my earlier posts in that thread, so I assumed she would read the rest, although I remember telling her that directly.

I also know for a fact that there is no clear definition for mentally ill people. Experts disagree a lot about this basic subject, which is how to define a mentally ill person? What if we're all mentally ill and the mentally ill are the healthy ones? Who determines that? What criteria do we use are true? Can there even be a true criteria? Can you distinguish between a truly mentally ill person and an imposter that knows how to fake all the symptoms? etc... We must keep in mind that there is no objective way for identifying a mental illness like blood tests and CXRs. Some experts even say that we are just doing a 'medicalization' for very ordinary problems that all human beings are prone to, for example: social anxiety disorder is simply just shyness, bipolar disease is just ups and downs in mood, and someone who is going through some traumatic event is considered a major depression disorder.

Here's an actual experiment of someone who had challenged the traditional measures and norms of psychiatry: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

That being said, I saw a bias from a person who was trying to use their experience as means to prove superiority, and therefore claim righteousness, and therefore justify to themselves and others keeping doing what they're doing.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Commodent]

@Truth Addict That's a quite difficult question to answer, but I would generally say favour your own ego, in a way that benefits all parties. Work empathetically with people rather than against them. That is the key.

And remember, you are not responsible for other people's personal development. Unless they are open to it it's generally a futile task to try to change people. Place your energy where it actually matters.

[Truth Addict]

@Commodent Thank you! Priceless wisdom and gracious advice ❤️

[bejapuskas]

On 19. 6. 2019 at 9:12 PM, Truth Addict said:

I agree with you to some degree. I don't consider arguing a defense mechanism, I think it's a way of survival, although the lines between survival and defense mechanisms are blurry. But I use the word survival because to me it seems more neutral than defense mechanisms.

I don't think I should get rid of the ego. I think I should try to make it behave better.

Yeh  So we can both agree, that the ego is a malleable thing, that you can consciously edit. This means, that if it holds some opinion now, doesn't mean, that it will hold it in the future as well. So what I am trying to say is, that being honest about some things might not be so helpful, if you take them as given. Rather I like to observe myself and see what do I behave like and then question it, why is it effective, how does it affect my experience of this life... 

[Truth Addict]

@bejapuskas

What if we apply that to itself? Could we stop holding the idea that ideas are malleable?