Who's Interested In Conscious Politics?

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura If so many people weren't idiots who continually take on mortgages for home they can't afford, get themselves into credit card debt and take our massive student loans the Great Recession wouldn't have happened. There are many different defenses against evil and misfortune and teaching personal responsibility is YOUR forte. It's also the conservative highest value. I'm not saying that who shouldn't be so interested in politics, you should I just hope that you fully understand your potential here. There's something to learn from everyone, every racist country bumpkin redneck knows something about the universe that you don't know. It's all pure potential, don't overlook anyone because in doing so you only underestimate yourself. 

 

[mandyjw]

@Etherial Cat

For some reason I had assumed you were American. Why are there so few Americans on this forum??? It's seriously destroying my skewed American centric world view. 

Hey Leo, I was born in the US, so if you want, I'll run for President for you, I'll be the face, and you can do all the hard work. As a bonus, I'm really good at saying stupid things out of the blue, just like George W Bush. The American people really seem to appreciate that kind of thing. 

[winterknight]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

@Leo Gura If so many people weren't idiots who continually take on mortgages for home they can't afford, get themselves into credit card debt and take our massive student loans the Great Recession wouldn't have happened. There are many different defenses against evil and misfortune and teaching personal responsibility is YOUR forte. It's also the conservative highest value. I'm not saying that who shouldn't be so interested in politics, you should I just hope that you fully understand your potential here. There's something to learn from everyone, every racist country bumpkin redneck knows something about the universe that you don't know. It's all pure potential, don't overlook anyone because in doing so you only underestimate yourself. 

The recession wasn't caused by a lack of personal consumer responsibility, it was caused by massive lack of regulation of the financial and real estate sectors. How do we know this? Because we didn't have regular financial crises crises for the middle chunk of the 20th century, when there was regulation. In the 19th century and early 20th century, there was little regulation, and -- massive regular financial crises. After the 80s, when there was deregulation again -- massive regular financial crises.

For 2008, it was not a lack of personal responsibility but unregulated systematic marketing of low-quality loans to low-education and vulnerable communities, unregulated securitization of such loans, massive unregulated leverage of banks and other financial institutions, all on the premise of 'responsibility' and the free market. Even arch-conservative free-marketeer Alan Greenspan admitted he had been wrong about a lack of regulation.

And when the shit hit the fan, who ponied up the money? Was it the rich? Or was it taxpayers? Where was personal responsibility then? Did the GOP call for corporate CEOs who had profited off all this pain to go to jail? Did rural voters?

 

Personal responsibility is fundamentally the wrong way to analyze society's ills. People are responsible or not because of an enormous structure around them of incentives and education and culture.

Edited June 12, 2019 by winterknight

[Quicksilver]

Im not American so i wont meddle in this topic but please specify that youre talking about American politics here as all of these things youre talking about are nowhere near universally valid. 

[mandyjw]

@winterknight Excellent points. I believe that someone is always going to find weak people to take advantage of, and no matter how much regulation you put into place there will always be a loophole. Regulation is needed, but I would also love the uneducated to receive financial education, especially poor communities. The kind of people who don't understand how interest accumulates, the kind of people who regularly take pay day loans those are the ones who need it most. Teach kids in highschool or earlier to be conservative and intelligent with their own finances. Teach them that their freedom and their time and life is worth more than money and possessions. I don't care if you have to get rid of algebra and English class, drill it into their heads. 

The reason that politicians make these mistakes, the reason Alan Greenspan was deluded is that he doesn't understand the mindset of those who are getting preyed on. When you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth, when you are blessed with a high quality education, it's easy to think that everyone can have the same opportunities. They simply do not, they have different motives, they live in the present moment. It's the very same present moment that we are trying to go back to having spent so long engineering our futures and slaving away towards them. They never left the present moment. It's beautiful and it's also really dangerous. 

Why are the people who need Democratic policies THE MOST resistant to them? Because Democrat leader STILL don't really understand them. Instead of seeing wealth as a status symbol, they see their intellect and education as it. That's their self worth, that's where they have a lot of ego.

Education and intellect is the same as material success. It feeds, you it clothes you, you need it. But do not attach your ego to it. We know nothing. 

This is a democracy, it's as beautiful as it is inconvenient. We are only as strong as our weakest link, we are in this together. You can't shortcut and cheat your way to a better world and leave people behind in the process. 

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by mandyjw

[winterknight]

18 minutes ago, Quicksilver said:

Im not American so i wont meddle in this topic but please specify that youre talking about American politics here as all of these things youre talking about are nowhere near universally valid. 

True!

14 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@winterknight Excellent points. I believe that someone is always going to find weak people to take advantage of, and no matter how much regulation you put into place there will always be a loophole. Regulation is needed, but I would also love the uneducated to receive financial education, especially poor communities. The kind of people who don't understand how interest accumulates, the kind of people who regularly take pay day loans those are the ones who need it most. Teach kids in highschool or earlier to be conservative and intelligent with their own finances. Teach them that their freedom and their time and life is worth more than money and possessions. I don't care if you have to get rid of algebra and English class, drill it into their heads. 

The reason that politicians make these mistakes, the reason Alan Greenspan was deluded is that he doesn't understand the mindset of those who are getting preyed on. When you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth, when you are blessed with a high quality education, it's easy to think that everyone can have the same opportunities. They simply do not, they have different motives, they live in the present moment. It's the very same present moment that we are trying to go back to having spent so long engineering our futures and slaving away towards them. They never left the present moment. It's beautiful and it's also really dangerous. 

Why are the people who need Democratic policies THE MOST resistant to them? Because Democrat leader STILL don't really understand them. Instead of seeing wealth as a status symbol, they see their intellect and education as it. That's their self worth, that's where they have a lot of ego.

Education and intellect is the same as material success. It feeds, you it clothes you, you need it. But do not attach your ego to it. We know nothing. 

This is a democracy, it's as beautiful as it is inconvenient. We are only as strong as our weakest link, we are in this together. You can't shortcut and cheat your way to a better world and leave people behind in the process. 

Some great points here. You are, I'm sure, absolutely right that there is a resentment of those with higher educational status, and you also made interesting points about being able to speak to people with lower levels of education in the way they understand.

Donald Trump is documented to speak in 3rd or 4th grade language -- not out of calculation, but because he can't help it.

Steve Bullock, one of the few Democrats who has consistently won in rural areas said that there's no magic formula for winning rural voters: Dems need to show up and try. They largely haven't. So that's a critical point too.

There's a great book called Anti-Intellectualism in American Life that shows this resentment-of-education issue has been with us since the nation's founding and before. Prior to the American revolution, for instance, George Washington and Ben Franklin, farmers themselves, approached other farmers with scientific knowledge from Europe about how to improve crop yield. This wasn't some fancy abstract philosophical knowledge.

And the reaction? "Our forefathers have done it this way, and our forefathers' forefathers, and if it was good enough for them, it's good enough for us."

Edited June 12, 2019 by winterknight

[mandyjw]

13 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Donald Trump is documented to speak in 3rd or 4th grade language -- not out of calculation, but because he can't help it.

I believe that he knows exactly what he is doing. Being older and getting a bit senile might play into it some, but don't be fooled, he is a genius when it comes to making the common man think that he has their best interests at heart. What we need to someone who can make them believe it and who actually DOES have their interests at heart. 

18 minutes ago, winterknight said:

And the reaction? "Our forefathers have done it this way, and our forefathers' forefathers, and if it was good enough for them, it's good enough for us."

That's a major challenge. Sometimes you have to appear at just the right moment when they realize that what worked for generations isn't going to cut it anymore. Timing is everything. 

[winterknight]

16 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Thanks for the reference. 

Do you have any other book recommendations?

You mean on politics and American culture? Robert Caro's massive but brilliant biographies of Lyndon Johnson and Robert Moses are excellent. Democracy in America is classic -- Tocqueville, a French observer, captured much about American culture in a way that's never been matched.

[winterknight]

1 hour ago, Etherial Cat said:

Yeah, Tocqueville is sort of an institution in my side of the world. I read partially Democracy in America in my first year of College, despite the fact that it wasn't part of the curriculum. Fascinating book.

I'm more surprised about your first recommendations. Will definitely have a look at them though. 

You can recommend even sort of advanced books.  I studied some political stuff and law at Uni level. I love to find new gems

Well, if you want an absolutely insane literary masterpiece, more like a gothic novel than a typical history, read Carlyle's History of the French Revolution.

Edited June 12, 2019 by winterknight

[Zigzag Idiot]

 

 

5 hours ago, winterknight said:

True!

Some great points here. You are, I'm sure, absolutely right that there is a resentment of those with higher educational status, and you also made interesting points about being able to speak to people with lower levels of education in the way they understand.

Donald Trump is documented to speak in 3rd or 4th grade language -- not out of calculation, but because he can't help it.

Steve Bullock, one of the few Democrats who has consistently won in rural areas said that there's no magic formula for winning rural voters: Dems need to show up and try. They largely haven't. So that's a critical point too.

There's a great book called Anti-Intellectualism in American Life that shows this resentment-of-education issue has been with us since the nation's founding and before. Prior to the American revolution, for instance, George Washington and Ben Franklin, farmers themselves, approached other farmers with scientific knowledge from Europe about how to improve crop yield. This wasn't some fancy abstract philosophical knowledge.

And the reaction? "Our forefathers have done it this way, and our forefathers' forefathers, and if it was good enough for them, it's good enough for us."

 

There's a story, purportedly true, of a school board in the heart of the Tennessee Bible Belt wrestling with whether or not to institute a foreign language curriculum in its high school. After heated discussion, the debate was finally brought to an end when one of its board members stood up and said, "No Way! If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for my son"

This is from near the beginning of Cynthia Bourgeault's THE WISDOM JESUS.

@mandyjw I think you would love this book. @Bill W also since you've each expressed a renewed interest in Christianity and the Bible. For me it articulates the divide in Fundamentalist Christianity as well as an introduction to a contemplative Christianity which many are unaware of and has authentic lineage.

Talk about effecting a large portion of US voters. It stands Fundamentalism on its head. If it only could be delivered in such a way in which these church goers who vote for Trump had "ears to hear",,,,

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Zigzag Idiot

[lukej]

@Leo Gura 

I know I'm kinda jumping in late but I would love to hear your perspective on these things. Please do shoot the video and share it on YouTube. 

I'm excited to see where your content is going to go from here. I will love and support you always. Thank you!

 

[Annoynymous]

7 hours ago, mandyjw said:

@Leo Gura If so many people weren't idiots who continually take on mortgages for home they can't afford, get themselves into credit card debt and take our massive student loans the Great Recession wouldn't have happened. There are many different defenses against evil and misfortune and teaching personal responsibility is YOUR forte. It's also the conservative highest value. I'm not saying that who shouldn't be so interested in politics, you should I just hope that you fully understand your potential here. There's something to learn from everyone, every racist country bumpkin redneck knows something about the universe that you don't know. It's all pure potential, don't overlook anyone because in doing so you only underestimate yourself. 

 

I think you totally missed or bypassed @Leo Gura's point. He was talking about war on Iraq  and how conservative like bush is responsible for that. Whereas u focused on great depression which he only used to compare and therefore it wasnt the actual point. And my personal view is, yeah i agree with you, that we should learn from conservatives as well. We have to learn their ways so that we may see how BULLSHIT it is and how it is creating evil on the world and therefore not to follow it.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Annoynymous

[Leo Gura]

My point about the 2008 recession was that the banking industry and Wall Street were not properly regulated due to anti-regulation stance of the conservative/libertarian administration.

Those industries are still not properly regulated and exploit and steal from many Americans. Wall Street is very corrupt and also corrupts all our elected leaders with their stolen and exploited money. This is not good for raising the consciousness of Americans.

Wall Street and giant banks are allowed to be breeding grounds for devils. It's utterly corrupt and exploitative. No conscious society would allow such a thing. Most people do not fully understand how corrupt these systems are. And Trump only adds fuel to the fire by appointing these devils to his administration.

[Joseph Maynor]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Wall Street and giant banks are allowed to be breeding grounds for devils. It's utterly corrupt and exploitative. No conscious society would allow such a thing. Most people do not fully understand how corrupt these systems are. And Trump only adds fuel to the fire by appointing these devils to his administration.

It's interesting that you cling so hard to being the righteous restorer.  Righteousness is a such a characteristically Stage Blue trait.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Shadowraix]

9 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

It's interesting that you cling so hard to being the righteous restorer.  Righteousness is a such a characteristically Stage Blue trait.

Am I missing something? I don't see this. I just see a conversation on the specifics on what a more conscious society would side for. It doesn't necessarily mean you cling to it for the sake of correctness. It would get tiring to clarify that all the time and though. 

You can't be a fence sitter when you discuss on what one thinks an improved or more conscious society would look like

[ajasatya]

11 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

It's interesting that you cling so hard to being the righteous restorer.  Righteousness is a such a characteristically Stage Blue trait.

We're all responsible for being the righteous restorers of mankind. Pathological Blue wants to be obeyed. Stage Blue traits are not bad... they're supposed to be wisely integrated.

[Joseph Maynor]

8 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

We're all responsible for being the righteous restorers of mankind. Pathological Blue wants to be obeyed. Stage Blue traits are not bad... they're supposed to be wisely integrated.

It depends on how you're clinging to it.  

[Joseph Maynor]

7 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Give Leo a break, Jo.

I'm trying to understand.  Stage Blue is not very high up the Spiral.  It's just odd to me that Leo would be so Stage Blue after all this work and all this time.  But I guess my curiosity has run its course here.  See ya.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Aakash]

@Joseph Maynor LOL, its simple, its the highest TEACHING, so he uses it on actualised.org 

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Etherial Cat said:

Sorry to hear you feel uneasy here. I hope you'll be back because your contribution is often valuable.

But claiming that Leo is stage Blue?  What's up, mate?

Like Coral and Blue had a baby.