How long is it going to take before religion is gone?

[Andreas]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Ok. Imagine a child has been abused. He has been traumatized. His brain and body have been conditioned in terrible ways. The kid is suffering terribly. We now know that these physiological changes persist into adulthood. Their brains are rewired.

You say you have compassion for this child. You seem to be saying your compassion is conditional. In what ways can this traumatized child behave that is acceptable to you so you will maintain your compassion for him. What are compassion “deal-breakers” for you? For example, if the traumatized person acted out their inner hell by cutting themself, would you still have compassion for them?  What if they had a PTSD traumatic episode and screamed profanities at someone? Would you still have compassion for them? 

What does a traumatized person need to do to go from your compassion list to your shit list?

Don’t abuse people and act like an adult. There is no excuse for child abuse, ever. Same laws for everybody. 

[mandyjw]

8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Ok. Imagine a child has been abused. He has been traumatized. His brain and body have been conditioned in terrible ways. The kid is suffering terribly. We now know that these physiological changes persist into adulthood. Their brains are rewired.

You say you have compassion for this abused child. You seem to be saying your compassion is conditional. In what ways can this traumatized child behave that is acceptable to you so you will maintain your compassion for him?  What are your compassion “deal-breakers”?

For example, if the traumatized person acted out their inner hell by cutting themself, would you still have compassion for them?  What if they had a PTSD traumatic episode and screamed profanities at someone? Would you still have compassion for them? 

What does a traumatized person need to do to go from your compassion list to your shit list?

 

3 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Don’t abuse people and act like an adult. There is no excuse for child abuse, ever. Same laws for everybody. 

When children become adults they often go from people's compassion lists to their shit lists. At some point an abused child becomes an adult and if a miracle does not happen to them before that point, they often become an abuser. At that point we completely lose compassion for them. This is why abuse cycles and replicates itself. Not because abused kids grow up to be abusers but because the world stops loving them at some point. 

"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth" - African proverb

 

[Andreas]

1 minute ago, kieranperez said:

@Andreas whose the one coming up with all this stuff?

There are no moral obligations as far as reality is concerned. Yeah we need to create rules because that’s what’s entailed as far as having a society goes but creating those consciously, understanding that there’s nothing inherent in those laws and rules will be far more effective because the we can change them (not to suggest that that’s some simple snap of the fingers process) rather than be rigid and dogmatic over our rules. Blue’s moralization is mind control. It’s stunts the person’s ability to think for themselves. 

There’s nothing true (entirely) about ‘this thing here is inherently and existentially sad’. I’m not defending people who beat their kids. That happened to my mom and yeah the psychological trauma that can leave on a person can be enormous but that doesn’t discount the fact of the matter. 

Rigid rules stunt without questioning stunts growth. Greater and more accepting consciousness of what’s true leads to greater and greater growth because it’s based off of what’s true. 

The reason you and I are here just discussing this right now is because of laws. If you want to live in a stone age then that’s on you. You can’t do anything evil, you can only do something egotistical. That’s true. You are fundamentally acting out of love. Same thing with laws. A good society is based on a set of laws which actualizes these principles.

1. The individual cannot harm society more than a society harms an individual.

2. Society cannot harm an indicidual more than an individual harms society. 

There is a balance. Utilitarianism and ethics is neccesary or you are actually going to kill everybody physically and set mankind back 3000 years or so. Then nobody is going to be enlightened. These are simply required. 

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Don’t abuse people and act like an adult. There is no excuse for child abuse, ever. Same laws for everybody. 

You don’t understand the physiological and psychological dynamics of child abuse. This is one reason the cycle continues.

There is a lot of science showing long-term brain and physiological alterations to child abuse - into adulthood. As well, I think volunteer work with adults that have been abused as children deepens one’s understanding. It did for me. 

You are essentially saying that you are allowed to act out your conditioning, yet hate those that act out their conditioning. People that abuse others are not doing from love - they are acting out their trauma and inner hell. 

 

[Forestluv]

@mandyjw Yes. ♥️ ? 

[Andreas]

4 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 

When children become adults they often go from people's compassion lists to their shit lists. At some point an abused child becomes an adult and if a miracle does not happen to them before that point, they often become an abuser. At that point we completely lose compassion for them. This is why abuse cycles and replicates itself. Not because abused kids grow up to be abusers but because the world stops loving them at some point. 

"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth" - African proverb

 

I get that and it’s true. If I hit a kid everyday I bet he is going to be abusive. He still has a responsibility and he still goes to jail. People are not born bad, they experience a bad life and act out of fear. But you can’t lost yourself and harm other people without recieving a penalty. That’s not how a society works. We need jail not to punish or shame people, but to protect the collective. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Andreas

[Andreas]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

You don’t understand the physiological and psychological dynamics of child abuse. This is one reason the cycle continues.

There is a lot of science showing long-term brain and physiological alterations to child abuse - into adulthood. As well, I think volunteer work with adults that have been abused as children deepens one’s understanding. It did for me. 

You are essentially saying that you are allowed to act out your conditioning, yet hate those that act out their conditioning.

 

I was abused as a child by my dad. You don’t know me. I remember being pushed down stairs and chased for doing the simplest things. I still believe people have the responsibility to not be abusive. 

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Andreas said:

I get that and it’s true. If I hit a kid everyday I bet he is going to be abusive. He still has a responsibility and he still goes to jail. People are not born bad, they experience a bad life and act out of fear. But you can’t lost yourself and harm other people without recieving a penalty. That’s not how a society works. We need jail not to punish or shame people, but to protect the collective. 

That is a different issue. You just bypassed the compassion issue. 

We can temporarily remove a person if they are abusing others - so this person does not abuse others. Yet we can do so while loving this person and with compassion. We can try to help this abused person heal. 

You originally said you hate the people doing the abuse. That is a different issue.

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, Andreas said:

I was abused as a child by my dad. You don’t know me. I remember being pushed down stairs and chased for doing the simplest things. I still believe people have the responsibility to not be abusive. 

And what if they don’t have the resources to do so? What if their brain and body has been messed up? What if nobody loves them? What if people hate them? How on earth can such a person heal and get better?

I volunteered in a psychiatric ward of a hospital for years. Many abused people never had the chance to heal. They were never loved, They were treated like shit their whole life.

[Andreas]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

That is a different issue. You just bypassed the compassion issue. 

We can temporarily remove a person if they are abusing others - so this person does not abuse others. Yet we can do so while loving this person and with compassion. We can try to help this abused person heal. 

You originally said you hate the people doing the abuse. That is a different issue.

Well I should refrace that. I hate the act of abuse. Not the people doing them. I support compassion. I live in Norway. I think we may have the nicest prisonsystems in the world. People are doing a lot better out of the system than in America. 

[Andreas]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

And what if they don’t have the resources to do so? What if their brain and body has been messed up? What if nobody lives them? What if people hate them? How on earth can such a person heal and get better?

Then that’s a shitty situation. But we still have to enforce the law or society is going to end pretty fast. It’s not for their sake. They should get some mental help like they do in my country and get a job and some friends. Or whatever they need. We still need a society after all. 

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Well I should refrace that. I hate the act of abuse. Not the people doing them. I support compassion. I live in Norway. I think we may have the nicest prisonsystems in the world. People are doing a lot better out of the system than in America. 

That is a big expansion of love. When I see abuse, I feel compassion for both abuser and abused. They are both suffering and acting out conditioning. There is plenty of delusion. I would also want to stop anymore abuse and then try to help both of them. Stopping the abuse may involve temporarily removing the abuser from society. Hopefully, we could help that person get better.

Similarly, when I see a religious person indoctrinating others, I see someone acting out their own indoctrination. I would support bringing awareness to the indoctrination to reduce harm. Yet I wouldn’t hate on someone acting out their own indoctrination. I was hard-core indoctrinated into a religion as a child. It’s really hard to work through. I’m still deconstructing some of that crap - 30 years later. . . 

And yes, the prison system here in America is messed up.

[Andreas]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

That is a big expansion of love. When I see abuse, I feel compassion for both abuser and abused. They are both suffering and acting out conditioning. 

Is that your gut reaction? How do I get to that level? I feel like meditation is not enough. 

 

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

And yes, the prison system here in America is messed up.

Absolutely crazy. Imagine killing someone for their life experiences they could not control. And life in prison is basicly ruining someones life for a tiny stroke to the ego of the victims. 

[Forestluv]

49 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Is that your gut reaction? How do I get to that level? I feel like meditation is not enough.

Yes, it is now my gut reaction.

The big changes for me occurred when I did volunteer work with alcoholics, drug addicts, criminals and psychiatric patients. People that were suffering immensely. They had been abused and now harming others. I had never seen this side of abuse and trauma before. It was gut-wrenching. I’m quite empathic and I internalized a lot of it. 

After this, I saw it very differently. As a cycle of abuse. A cycle of suffering. 

One movie that had a big impact on me was “Little Children”. Yet it was really intense for me. It’s a story of a cycle of abuse in which most of the characters are both abused and abusing. 

[Leo Gura]

@Andreas You might as well be upset at a horse for shitting.

Shitting has an important function, whether you like it or not.

[Andreas]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Andreas You might as well be upset at a horse for shitting.

What?

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Andreas said:

What?

How would you reply if I made a post entitled: "How long is it going to take for horses to stop shitting?"

 

[now is forever]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How would you reply if I made a post entitled: "How long is it going to take for horses to stop shitting?"

 

maybe they need to be taught to use a toilet properly?

[Leo Gura]

@now is forever And how long will it take to teach every horse on Earth to use your toilet?

[Forestluv]

The horse shitting metaphor pretty much cuts to the chase.