Leo is a hardcase not enlightened

[Dayo]

You guys are arguing about non-duality instead of pursuing it. Leo and Sadhguru have different approaches. Pick the one you like. It is not by force you have to follow Leo's approach

[OmniYoga]

@Tony 845  he is on point, the vast majority either live in the past or future  that is the default, social norm - with all the list of requiments "i will be happy when ... xzy, i will be happy if ..., i will be happy ... you name it, and then all of the sudden life had passed and you're dead ,
it's an art to living in in present moment

so i doesn't matter whatever you're enlighened or not, being present to the moment increased the overal quality of your life

[pluto]

Excellent Video

[Moreira]

this thread is a battle of chimps 

[outlandish]

It's an irrelevant topic.

Are Leo's teachings helpful to you?

It doesn't matter who is and who isn't enlightened.

[whoareyou]

It is very relevant. Read all of the posts, and try to really see what some of us are saying here. The point here is very nuanced, and unless you had some realizations yourself, you may not see what is being said here. I agree that the title of the thread could be improved, but a "hardcase" is very fitting.

Edited April 15, 2019 by whoareyou

[OmniYoga]

@outlandish nope, yesterday I realized I didn't want to become enlightened in the first place - that wasn't my goal, especially for all the cost - what's the point of it - absolutely none
but whit Leo and his marketing I get the idea that this is important and all people should pursuit it, otherwise you're fucking up your life
this is the ulitmate goal that everyone should stive for, so his ego impose on me the idea that I need it

[whoareyou]

11 minutes ago, OmniYoga said:

@outlandish nope, yesterday I realized I didn't want to become enlightened in the first place - that wasn't my goal, especially for all the cost - what's the point of it - absolutely none
but whit Leo and his marketing I get the idea that this is important and all people should pursuit it, otherwise you're fucking up your life
this is the ulitmate goal that everyone should stive for, so his ego impose on me the idea that I need it

I agree, I had the exact same realization and been trying to tell this to Leo. Enlightenment shouldn't be a goal, or something that needs to be achieved in the future - as that is an illusion and will never come. Chasing your own tail by Sadhguru is one of the best analogies that I have seen, which is why I loved the video that you posted. This is also the reason why some teachers avoid using the word "enlightenment" and use "liberation" instead.

[whatishappeningtome]

Leo has shot what..30-40 hours of Enlightenment content. Remember his gift is the ability to put things into perspective and show us the bigger picture. I think you underestimate his ability to reflect on himself and maintain his own self awareness. 

There's many paths up the same mountain. 

[Iulius]

This was a very "enlightening" topic, and all of you are right: the trap is very real, people believe that by becoming enlightened they achieve some super powers like a god amongst men. Attaching to this delusion can cause A LOT of disapointment and even psychosis.

I wanted to share something very interesting with you. I came across a video of Adyshanti holding a speech in which he only talked about what Enlightenment IS NOT. It is interesting to hear his perspective in which he said that a lot of people confuse and mix Enlightenment with Awakening and Mystical Experiences, they seem to be different things. Enjoy:

 

[outlandish]

@OmniYoga @whoareyou How does this debate matter?

If you find out that Leo is "enlightened" will you elevate his teachings to a higher level? If you find out that he is not, will you be disappointed and toss them in the garbage and go find the next guru who qualifies?

Please explain why it's worth the energy trying to discern if Leo (or anyone for that matter) is enlightened?

[Tony 845]

@OmniYoga my whole point was “being present” didn’t get him enlightened, self inquiry did, that’s all I was saying.

[purerogue]

5 hours ago, Iulius said:

This was a very "enlightening" topic, and all of you are right: the trap is very real, people believe that by becoming enlightened they achieve some super powers like a god amongst men. Attaching to this delusion can cause A LOT of disapointment and even psychosis.

I wanted to share something very interesting with you. I came across a video of Adyshanti holding a speech in which he only talked about what Enlightenment IS NOT. It is interesting to hear his perspective in which he said that a lot of people confuse and mix Enlightenment with Awakening and Mystical Experiences, they seem to be different things. Enjoy:

 

Nice video  Reminds me of my awaking and laughing  about my mind getting angry at someone, so funny from such POV.

Edited April 16, 2019 by purerogue

[whoareyou]

13 hours ago, outlandish said:

@OmniYoga @whoareyou How does this debate matter?

If you find out that Leo is "enlightened" will you elevate his teachings to a higher level? If you find out that he is not, will you be disappointed and toss them in the garbage and go find the next guru who qualifies?

Please explain why it's worth the energy trying to discern if Leo (or anyone for that matter) is enlightened?

@outlandish This is not what is being debated or discussed here. Why do you not read before making a post?

We are not having a debate of weather Leo is enlightened or not. It's Leo's approach and perception of what is "enlightenment" and the way of getting there. Leo states that "enlightenment" is something that can be achieved in the future, that would take 1000s of hours of practice.

Imo, that is called chasing your own tail. Leo is chasing his own tail(seeking) and encourages people to do the same. Watch the video by Sadhguru in OP.

On top of that(after the latest retreat), he made some ridiculous claims such as  reaching levels of consciousness few humans ever did, etc. To anyone experienced, they can detect Ego at play right away. This is all connected in the bigger picture and a good example for anyone on this path who is seeking.

[Arnold666]

@whoareyou Dude... Just keep on meditate for a few years, it will make sense. 

[Dayo]

15 hours ago, outlandish said:

@OmniYoga @whoareyou How does this debate matter?

If you find out that Leo is "enlightened" will you elevate his teachings to a higher level? If you find out that he is not, will you be disappointed and toss them in the garbage and go find the next guru who qualifies?

Please explain why it's worth the energy trying to discern if Leo (or anyone for that matter) is enlightened?

They don't like Leo's approach to enlightenment.  They prefer Sadhguru's approach. They are arguing about approach instead of doing the work.

[SunnyNewDay]

stop discussing who is enlightened and who isn't 

[outlandish]

4 hours ago, whoareyou said:

@outlandish This is not what is being debated or discussed here. Why do you not read before making a post?

We are not having a debate of weather Leo is enlightened or not. It's Leo's approach and perception of what is "enlightenment" and the way of getting there. Leo states that "enlightenment" is something that can be achieved in the future, that would take 1000s of hours of practice.

Imo, that is called chasing your own tail. Leo is chasing his own tail(seeking) and encourages people to do the same. Watch the video by Sadhguru in OP.

On top of that(after the latest retreat), he made some ridiculous claims such as  reaching levels of consciousness few humans ever did, etc. To anyone experienced, they can detect Ego at play right away. This is all connected in the bigger picture and a good example for anyone on this path who is seeking.

@whoareyou Yeah my apologies, I skimmed the thread pretty hard and totally misunderstood your position, and confused it with some other posts on this thread. I did watch the Sadhguru video at full attention, fwiw.

In many ways I agree very much with what you're saying.

In Leo's defence, he's doing a great job of navigating the ego traps that lie along this path of exploration. He's maintaining his humility. He's not perfect in this regard, but who is? It's extremely challenging to even begin to talk about this stuff without insinuating a hint of ego - because it's not all gone, and probably never can be. The easier thing to do would be to shut up and not talk about it. What I see him doing right is that he's not putting himself above anyone else, he doesn't think he has the exclusive answers in any way, and most importantly he's sharing his explorations in a very open way.

He's probably correct that he has reached levels (maybe bad choice of language) of consciousness few humans ever have. I take this as a simple matter of fact, and not an achievement that he's waving around. There aren't too many humans in the history of the planet that have taken a month off from the mundane to repeatedly bomb 5-MeO-DMT.

There might be a tiny bit of waving it around so that he can share the experience, but not too much "look at how great I am". He's presenting it as: "This is what it's like when a human takes a month off from default life to meditate and take 5-MeO-DMT" rather than "I'm so good at meditating and taking 5-MeO-DMT that I got enlightened (and you didn't)".

This path can be criticized as chasing your own tail or navel gazing for sure. It's hard to seek for something higher without striving and having ego-ambitions. But it's an interesting game. It would be much simpler to go to church and have faith in god, or just be an atheist and do science, or just be Joe Sixpack, and that's a valid path for many people. But he's checking out this other route and letting the world know, and I think that's cool. Maybe it's just spiritual entertainment.

You could criticize athletes in an analogous way, for their ego ambitions in seeking a gold medal at the olympics. Why are they chasing their own tail trying to be better? They need to be happy with who they are, and not run around doing this and that to get faster. You'd think that the top athletes on the podium would have the worst ego issues. Some of them do for sure, but the very best athletes do make it to the top of the podium with extreme humility and ego put to the side. They aren't doing it for themselves, or to prove themselves, but to see what is possible, for their countrymen, for god, for peace. The world would be a more boring place if no one played this game of trying to better themselves and simultaneously leave the ego aside.

I see the same thing with artists, musicians, DJs. At the beginning and middle you see a lot of really strong egos going around with something to prove. As you go "higher up" the ones that are left often have managed to transcend the ego, and have left that stuff to the side. But you also see the other extreme, there are some real assholes at the top as well!

Anyways, a bit of a meander, thanks for reading.

[whoareyou]

@outlandish Yes it is extremely challenging, and nobody is perfect - and I like I said he has done a lot of amazing things.

I disagree and would say that he doesn't always maintain his humility. Some other users stated that as well. A lot of the times when he gets criticized, and responds - he goes in a pure defense mode and justifies why he is right (without considering the possibility of being wrong). Another user even in this thread posted how he called some guy a "sheep", because he disagreed with his opinion. One of the traps of this process, is it is very easy to build up a "spiritual" EGO.

I also disagree with your interpretation of his "Impossible levels of consciousness were accessed that few human beings have ever experienced." - If you read his notes from the retreat, and you see how arrogant some of his writings sound, you will see it in context. Take a note on the usage of word "impossible" here.

Shutting up and not talking about it would be much harder than talking about it. If you have had "crazy awakening" experiences yourself with 5-MEO or other strong psychedelics, you would know that the first thing you would want to do is talk about it. Yup more ego. I know this purely from my own experience.

I am glad that you brought up an analogy with Olympic athletes. LEO comes from a self-development background, so it is natural for him to apply the same type of process for "enlightenment". The thing is, it works for every field but "enlightenment"! Because "enlightenment" is not something that can be achieved, or reached. If you think that you do X and Y - and some day in the future you will become "enlightened", that day will NEVER come. Because everything happens in this present moment, as cliche as it sounds. So what you will end up doing is chasing your own tail. 

Constructive criticism and not following anyone blindly is very vital. We can love, and appreciate what the person has done, but when the situation calls for it, to give our honest opinions.

[Dumb Enlightened]

On 14/04/2019 at 11:47 AM, Jack Walter Leon said:

@whoareyou Yes, you are right.

I'm not trying to hate on Leo but in my opinion he has evolved a big spiritual ego. If one reads his comments here on the forum, it gets very clear that he somehow feels superior now especially after his last enlightenment experiences. It almost seems as if it is not allowed to question or even criticize his insights. I've noticed many times that he does not respond correctly to some questions and prefers to teach people and reproaches them that they can not understand him because of their ego that stands in their way. One time he even made fun of some guy, laughed at him and called him a sheep. Noone except for him personally knows what he's been through but that doesn't sound like a wise man to me.

The problem is that people actually don't understand, the ego indeed gets in the way, that's the problem, truth is not up to debate, or whatever, you either realize it or you don't, when Leo posts the videos he's just explaining the insights he had, he is not asking for others to agree or validate his insights, nor it's something that can logically be understood, you go and have the insight and then you understand what he says, or you don't have the insight and you won't understand.

Like the video after his last enlightenments where he says that reality is perfect already, some hours after watching it I had this realization myself, and then I understood, but how can you explain for someone that reality is perfect ? The mind just cannot understand , nor it ever will, then lots of people opened threads here saying that he was full of shit, how can reality be perfect ? How can suffering be an illusion, it doesn't make any sense...etc..

If you don't agree you go after the realization, you won't get an answer debating in forums or complaining about it, nor anyone needs to explain anything for you, go and find for yourself,