Where do I start?

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Paul92 said:

@Serotoninluv  You say your friend.. this is what I mean... your friend isn't a separate identity from you. That is what hurts me. That I am not 'me', which I am quite happy being actually (not in this current state), and my friends are not they. We are in terms of an ego, but the ego is an illusion.

I love the world. Its brilliant. I love music. I love art. I love reading history. I love watching movies. I love food. I love other people. But if it all just me, then what is there to discover?

I understand. My example assumes the existence of a person.

To me, it looks like you have become aware of the illusion. After spending one's whole life in "real", it can be very unsettling to realize "illusion".

Yet I think you are going from one extreme to another. I consider this "halfway" there. In terms of steps:

1. All is real

2. All is illusion

3. Illusion is Real and Real is Illusion.

For me, getting stuck in "step 2" was really uncomfortable. Once I realized the illusion for real, there was no turning back. I could never unsee it. I went into a tailspin. The problem with getting stuck in step 2 for me is creating a new story. This is why I like the color analogy because I had no attachment.

1. Colors are real (I spent most of my life realizing this)

2. Colors are illusion (I learned this in neuroscience - colors don't exist - the mind creates them in the brain).

3. Colors are both illusion and real

I did not have a problem with step 2 because I did not create a story about how awful this was. I didn't start thinking about how life no longer has meaning because colors aren't real. I didn't start wondering how I can live anymore if colors aren't real. I didn't think about how I can never love colors anymore. I didn't look at painting and sunset with depression because I now knew that the colors were illusions.

Therefore, I could easily go to step 3. I can look at a colorful painting and know that it is colorless. I know it is just wavelengths of colorless light. The colors are an illusion. Yet I also realize the colors are real. I'm looking around my room right now at all the colors. They are so obviously real. There is nothing more real than the colors I am looking at. How can I say otherwise? It is the most obvious thing ever. It's a no-brainer. So the colors are both illusion and real. Illusion = Real. Now, I don't even think about it. The colors are beautiful and I can fully immerse myself in the colors. Knowing the colors are both illusion and real ADDS depth to my life. I can relate to people in a different way. I relate to animals a different way. We all have unique experiences with colors and it's so beautiful. It is MORE beautiful than when I thought colors were just real.

From my POV, the suffering is arising not because of the awareness of illusion. Rather, it is due to attachment to ideas about what illusion and reality now means. Everything you have said so far is extra meaning you are ADDING. Just like if you started thinking how terrible it is that colors are just an illusion. I know how hard it is to get through. This was one of the hardest things for me to work through and at times I didn't want to live anymore. Yet when I got through it, much deeper appreciations, loves, connections arose. There is MUCH more once "step 3" is reached. Indescribable magnificence.

We are both One AND Separate. Direct experience with that was so profound it brought me to tears. It is indescribably beautiful. You and Me are both you and me AND One. Love and sorrow are separate and united. Notice how you are dividing love and sorrow in your mind. They are separate AND One. The experience of both love and sorrow as one is among the deepest most beautiful experiences of my life. 

The illusion aspect is only a big deal due to attachment to the other side - real. One is only a big deal due to attachment to the other side - separate. Sorrow is only a big deal due to attachment to the other side - love. It is the attachment.

A coin is both heads and tails. If the mind insists that the coin is EITHER heads OR tails it will not be able to see the coin is BOTH heads AND tails. Right now, you seem to be arguing for one side. You seem to keep saying "Well, yea but look at Heads. Ya, but there is still Heads. But how can it be Tails if there is Heads?". That mindset will not allow you to see both heads and tails. Concepts can be helpful to an extent, yet I found it helpful at times to shut off the thinking noise in my head and get out in nature. Ime the deeper realizations are not intellectual or conceptual and I need to relax that part of my mind for the deeper awareness to arise.

[bejapuskas]

@Paul92  Maybe you think, that they are your ego, which is not true in your perception, so it causes you to suffer.

[kieranperez]

7 hours ago, Shin said:

Except Leo is supposed to be the exemple and lead his community.

What is he doing instead ?

Being a condescendant Zen devil who says shit like that.

 

The more he woke, the more of an asshole prick he becomes.

This needs to adressed, because that's the root cause of this kind of behaviors.

 

Only him can do it though, but at that point I'm wondering if he is even conscious of this, his last posts make me doubt that A LOT.

That’s your problem with your petty selfish expectations. 

You nondual keyboard warriors who lack compassion, humility, self reflection, and open mindedness act like you know all there is to be known (and you definitely fit this bill in your other posts and replied to other people’s thread so I’m talking about you here to). This is apparent in the way you guys answer questions. 

Personally I’m glad a lot of these threads and comments get shut down from time to time. 

If I was a world class track coach and I ran my own team and I had athletes who I’ve been trying to coach through a multitude of ways and they don’t listen and act after reading a few books on training theory and now they act like know it alls (and make no mistake what you and a lot of people on here, including myself plenty of times) I would have to be hard with them and if they keep it up, guess what? They’re off the team. They would end up wasting my time, their time, and everyone else’s time. 

Your complaining and expectations of what Leo and all other nondual and personal development teachers should and shouldn’t do has everything to do with you. 

[bejapuskas]

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

That’s your problem with your petty selfish expectations. 

You nondual keyboard warriors who lack compassion, humility, self reflection, and open mindedness act like you know all there is to be known (and you definitely fit this bill in your other posts and replied to other people’s thread so I’m talking about you here to). This is apparent in the way you guys answer questions. 

Personally I’m glad a lot of these threads and comments get shut down from time to time. 

If I was a world class track coach and I ran my own team and I had athletes who I’ve been trying to coach through a multitude of ways and they don’t listen and act after reading a few books on training theory and now they act like know it alls (and make no mistake what you and a lot of people on here, including myself plenty of times) I would have to be hard with them and if they keep it up, guess what? They’re off the team. They would end up wasting my time, their time, and everyone else’s time. 

Your complaining and expectations of what Leo and all other nondual and personal development teachers should and shouldn’t do has everything to do with you. 

Leo has a lot of responsibility. People are going suicidal on this forum, it is nothing to be overlooked. I think that we should be allowed to question Leo (I am glad we are) and that he can also learn something from us. He is probably more developed than most of us, I admire him, I am looking forward to his new videos, but still, there are some shady spots. I just feel like Leo is the kind of guy who can understand criticism.

[Paul92]

@Serotoninluv Thank you for taking the time to write all that out to me. Much appreciated. At this point in time, all I want is someone to talk to and try and get a grip on what is happening to me. So thanks.

I know what you are saying about how you could not unsee the illusion. Don't get me wrong, I am not ENTIRELY convinced of the illusion as of yet. But it seems pretty convincing. If I could pinpoint the Self as an absolute entity, I'd be out of this in a moment. For instance, if I could believe that you, me and everyone else were individual souls, even in monkey bodies, that lived on after this existence or whatever, I don't think I'd ever be depressed again. Because I know that we are all individual on some level and that we'd never actually die. How wonderful. But I don't see that.

What was your direct experience of that we are seperate and one?

I could think, yes we are clearly all separate, but within the universe, we are clearly one. But I don't that is what people are saying here. I'm just trying to understand that's all, please forgive me if I seem to be being deliberately obtuse or something. Not my intention.

I think these tablets are really screwing with my head and body too. I had an half day at work today and just came home and tried sleeping but it's not possible. My head feels physically very strange and I keep having muscle spasms. It's a strange sensation.

I know that colours are illusions. Essentially waves that my mind interprets one way. A dog's brain might interpret them as purple or black. But the illusion of someone you love seems a bit more significant to me than a colour

I'm still reeling from leaving this girl. Is it bad to miss her? Honestly, the times we had were phenomenal. To love and be loved in return.

[kieranperez]

39 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

People are going suicidal on this forum, it is nothing to be overlooked.

Couple of points I want to make on this, as someone who has been borderline suicidal and has communicated this on the forum...

• These nondual elitist know it alls exaccerbate this issue with people who are suicidal. As someone whose posted about my incredibly crippling low self esteem, lack of self love, depression, and utter confusion, all the comments that made me feel more isolated and less understood and felt like I got no help at all were these Zen Devil nondual know it alls who just want to play that card and completely lack compassion and empathy. I’ve gotten and see all the time comments such as “this is all your fucking ego,” “nobody is going to help you. Nobody will save you. It’s just you in this universe.” “Your mind has you by the balls.” YOU DONT SAY THAT SHIT TO PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE HABIT OF BEATING THEMSELVES UP. Those responses come from people who’ve had the great fortune of not actually feeling that kind of pain and level of self torture. Those responses come from people who went from being newbs on this spiritual path, got some little glimpses, and now they think they understand everything and now they’re cocky. If anything I see Leo coming down on those people are trying to communicate to show more empathy and compassion. That’s not to make out all people on this forum like that. When I’m going through a hard time (like I am today) I sometimes get flooded with massages of people reaching out and it’s touching. I’ve made friends on this forum like @Sahil Pandit and @Robby and I hope these people are my friends for life. 
• Leo isn’t here to fix all of us. Yeah, I personally really admire Leo. I wish sometimes I could get that face-face advice and serious from him but guess what? That’s my shit. That’s our shit. That’s our expectation. 
• If you’re concerned about people’s mental health, how bout YOU meet them where they’re at? Show them some compassion and some love and give them some exercises and tips that will them to empower themselves this way they don’t need to cling to anybody? A lot of people on here express their deep depression and suicidal thoughts because they’re looking for someone to save them because they’re at a point where they can’t even intuit an empowering vision for their impact on the world, who they can become, what they want, etc. but they don’t want to die. If they TRULY wanted to die, they would. They become needy because they don’t believe in themselves at all anymore. How can YOU help with that? Rather than just expecting Leo to come in there and be their Superman? 

Edited April 3, 2019 by kieranperez

[OBEler]

@Paul92 I feel you! Evn when I did not experienced your situation exactly I can understand you, because of same thoughts. 

I think you are in dark night of the soul.  I researched a lot after grounding mysellf and intellectually (not from experience) I understand we are one and also separated individual human beings. both is real! 

From the very recommended book of Jana dixon biology of kundalini:

"The Die-offs/dark nights are a “biochemical process” which secondarily brings about the dissolution of the operational personality structure for “a period of time”. The brain is undergoing such a catastrophic neurological meltdown and renewal, that the ego personality and functionality is temporarily completely non operational.

Depending on ones inner resources at the time and whether one is essentially imbued with a biological faith or has a tendency to fear, depression and self-hatred—this will determine whether the incapacitation is navigated positively or simply adds to the burden of an already diffcult life. The psychologicalemotional story one gives to interpret this autogenic “biological” event, is secondary to the chemistry, and yet is absolutely key to whether one can use the down cycles to further ones spiritual growth, or simply cause an escalation of our primary suffering."

"The Die-off’s in particular should be regarded with awe and gratitude as very good news. They don’t last long and we do not transform without them. The old must die for the new to be reborn. So the highs and lows of the kundalini cycle should be celebrated equally"

Hope you will recover, take care of your body and mind. eat clean and do sport, take supplements like fishoil, magnesium, vitamin d3 to ground yourself first. No spiritual stuff so that it will not confuse u more. Then when u feel ok slowly get back to spirituality. let me know  how u feel after month.

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by OBEler

[Paul92]

@OBEler Thanks for that. It's really tough at the moment. Wish I'd never come across any of this at times.

[Forestluv]

@Paul92 I've found that relaxing the mind-body is really helpful. Spending time in nature, yoga, meditation, hot baths, relaxation exercises, listening to heart-centered nonduality speakers etc.

Also, I've found direct experience is key. Too much analysis and conceptualization just made things worse for me. The practices and direct experience were helpful.

 

[Ananta]

@Serotoninluv wow, long post. 

[Forestluv]

@Paul92 I've found that relaxing the mind-body is really helpful. Spending time in nature, yoga, relaxation exercises, listening to heart-centered nonduality speakers etc.

Also, I've found direct experience is key. Too much analysis and conceptualization just made things worse for me. The practices and direct experience were helpful.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Anna1 said:

@Serotoninluv wow, long post. 

Yea, I realize I went on too long. I trimmed it down.

[Paul92]

Well guys, I don't know if I can carry on anymore.

I woke up this morning and didn't recognise anything. I'm not real. You're not real. Nothing is real.

I haven't gone into work and I'm sat here considering how meaningless it all is. If I die right now, there is no i of course, it wouldn't matter.

I loved this world. I loved helping other people. I love creating a world for us.

But there is no 'us'.

People on this forum constantly say 'i think this', 'i think that', 'you need to'. But there is none of that. That is essentially what you are saying. The amount of arguing and separation between everyone boggles the mind.

@Nahm @Serotoninluv @cetus56Thank you for your help, but I don't see a way back. Maybe my ego is just too big to dissolve. I can't live in a world where I am nothing and other people are nothing.

All I ever wanted was to spend my time here with the people I love and to love them.

Has anyone ever considered that trying to kill the ego might be a trap? That what you resist, persists. Can you ever get rid of your ego? The ego let this phenomena that I call 'me' enjoy the experience. Now I have uncovered it, there is nothing to enjoy.

 

[Nahm]

18 hours ago, Paul92 said:

I love the world. Its brilliant. I love music. I love art. I love reading history. I love watching movies. I love food. I love other people. But if it all just me, then what is there to discover?

 

 

15 hours ago, Paul92 said:

I'm still reeling from leaving this girl. Is it bad to miss her? Honestly, the times we had were phenomenal. To love and be loved in return.

It is this simple; stop trying to assert how right you are with “there’s no Paul”, etc, let that go. You clearly have a lot of love in your life, and you keep conceptualizing your way out of it. Why draw lines? Bask in it. Go be with that girl, today. Enjoy. Let Love be simple, let it. See that in love there is no duality, no right or wrong, no Paul or not Paul. 

A good therapist could help you realize that your blind spot is your own insistence in being right. No one is stopping you from doing everything and anything you want to do. Sans your own perspective. Step one is, take ownership, take responsibility, for your beliefs and perspectives which are limiting you. Step two is see a new perspective which is not limiting. 

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Paul92 said:

Now I have uncovered it, there is nothing to enjoy.

NO, you haven’t. You’re bypassing. There is infinitely everything to enjoy. Thank you for that??????

[Odysseus]

@Paul92 I feel you Paul. Real or illusion those are just words. But the experience of love for your family, your girlfriend Rebecca, music and helping others is so much deeper than words like ego, reality and so on. Go with your experience and don't buy into concepts. Love you man.

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Paul92 said:

The ego let this phenomena that I call 'me' enjoy the experience. Now I have uncovered it, there is nothing to enjoy.

Imo, there is your key. I think this “ego” is having a hissy fit. Of course the ego allows the ego to exist. Why would love and enjoyment disappear if the ego dissolved? Love and enjoyment is beyond the ego. 

There is love and enjoyment all around. Beyond what the mind can imagine. Notice how the ego says “Yea, but what’s in it for me?”

The ego can resist actualization by setting up terrible scenarios of what would happen if it gives up control. 

Why not BE love? Why not BE enjoyment?

[bejapuskas]

@Paul92  There is infinite love inside you, but you add some thoughts to it  Let go.

[Paul92]

I spoke to my dad today. I've never told him about my problems before.

He has an interest in enlightenment after a life of suffering. He had a breakdown last year.

He basically said just stop resisting what is and enjoy your life. Which is simple, but makes sense.

Still struggling to see other people as individuals though. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.

[bejapuskas]

@Paul92  They are what they are, nothing more, nothing less. You can be more mindful than this.  It's good, that your family is engaged in it with you and is ready to discuss these problems with you. You can probably trust them more than anyone else.