Using the force of God as an excuse to have sex your son's wife?

[Nahm]

@mandyjw I was just imagining a world where the average woman was a foot taller me, had a deeper subconsciously more authoritative voice than me, was twice as angry twice as often and twice as strong as me, and made more money than me. I was picturing a female president known for openly emasculating men by grabbing their genitalia & humiliating them in front of their peers. Then I was thinking, what if I lived in a world where all men knew war was wrong & vile  - but the bigger, stronger, authoritatively positioned women kept on killing men & children, and building bombs that could kill every man on earth a hundred times over. Everything would make sense in this imaginary world if God was referred to as She, “The Mother, The Daughter, and The Holy Spirit”, etc, and the messiahs, prophets and influential spiritual gurus were 99% woman? Could you even imagine?! 

 

[Joseph Maynor]

7 hours ago, mandyjw said:

@Serotoninluv

Creativity, emotion, empathy (or compassion is a better word I think), and intuition are great places to start. Maybe also throw in some communion with nature/mother earth and constantly humble yourself? 

The problem with an emphasis on thinking and analyzing is that it neglects feeling. You have to care about how you feel and when you teach, you have to care about how others feel. Instead the idea here is the very masculine "feelings make me weak, feelings must be destroyed, I'm doing this work so I don't have to feel." This problem is evident by the incessant strings of questions and complaints from people who have fallen into dark depressive states. Here, we just sort of dismiss this as ego backlash and give people a pat on the back for suffering more, because we're taught that the more you suffer the more spiritual you're becoming and the closer to your object of the truth. 

The problem is that this work is supposed to feel AMAZING. You are essentially cultivating, love, compassion, warmth, creativity, inspiration and opening yourself up to endless possibilities in life. Before you were closed off to them, or you self sabotaged yourself or you were too caught up in negative thoughts to see the light. I've done this work for four years now, Leo's videos helped to inspire me and open my mind enough to do it but I sought out different teachings. No psychedelics. Very little meditation. Very little suffering. No sitting down to do much of anything but instead constantly watching my thoughts and training myself how to see. My life before provided all the suffering I needed.  I feel AMAZING. I have mitigated most of the lows that I feel and the only made the highs higher. Events in my life have become so serendipitous that I feel like I'm going f-ing insane every day. But in a good way. The tiniest little things have the power to make me insanely happy. My experiences and desire for truth continue to deepen my understanding and depth of experience. Seemingly organically. 

There's a lot of focus on the dark aspects of spirituality here. I don't need to take drugs, or think very long on how I'm actually Hitler and every concentration camp victim at the same time. If talking about the dark things has value, then we must equally talk about the love and joy. If we are speaking to someone who is already depressed, he needs teachings that are at the very least balanced to guide him to truth. Otherwise there's a real danger of self destruction. That's a topic that's being discussed here daily. Maybe love and joy just doesn't appeal to 20 and 30 something men? It just doesn't sell so well. I understand why Leo had a target audience in the past, but why is he still pandering to it so much? Is this Enlightenment, Just For Men? Look around at this forum and tell me, if you were a woman who was just getting interested in this work, would you want to stick around here? 

So much of truth is paradoxical, so if you lean too far to one side of the paradox and say "this is the way" you tip over the canoe before you make it down the river. So let's take the paradox of, "You must be intensely dedicated to seeking the truth to find it." and "You are already enlightened."

There's this sort of unspoken narrative here of being the hero who goes out on his own and discovers the truth and makes the truth his bitch. Equally true is the narrative that life and mother earth brought you forth for a reason and she is loving and leading you towards the truth with every conscious step and misstep you make. It's a balancing act to keep the dedication to truth without getting a spiritual ego... then comparing your progress with others and expecting rewards from doing a certain amount of work as if spirituality could work out as nicely for you as a math problem would. 

Another paradox is that God is a man, and God is a woman. You have to learn and understand the qualities and viewpoints of the opposite gender, the gender that you were not egoically identified with your entire life, in order to evolve. You also have to consider and embrace their approach to spirituality if you want the truth. Which ironically is why I'm probably getting way more out of Leo's teachings and being around here than the rest of you. 

  Great insights.  You can’t really teach this stuff to people though, it’s a transformation that a person must go through.  It has to happen to you.  I mean, you can try to explain it as a pointer, which is useful.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Forestluv]

Thank you, I really appreciate your thoughtful comments and your perspective. I've been working to balance intellect / analysis / conceptualization with creativity / emotion / intimacy / intuition. Others may call in yin and yang or masculine and feminine etc. Your experience and perspective is really helpful. Hopefully not just for me, yet for others. 

A couple weeks ago i was immersed in nature and had deep connections with mother nature / earth. She is a wise teacher.

29 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 

The problem with an emphasis on thinking and analyzing is that it neglects feeling. You have to care about how you feel and when you teach, you have to care about how others feel. Instead the idea here is the very masculine "feelings make me weak, feelings must be destroyed, I'm doing this work so I don't have to feel." This problem is evident by the incessant strings of questions and complaints from people who have fallen into dark depressive states. Here, we just sort of dismiss this as ego backlash and give people a pat on the back for suffering more, because we're taught that the more you suffer the more spiritual you're becoming and the closer to your object of the truth. 

I've become more and more aware about an overemphasis on thinking and analysis and neglecting/repressing feelings. I think many of us are conditioned to figure things out and make sense of things. Yet I'm learning more about how emotions are a language and how thoughts and emotions interact within my body. They are so closely related that sometimes the distinction between the two dissolves.

I agree that many men are conditioned to think that "feeling make me weak" and that is a big problem in terms of learning the emotional language. Consider this: how many distinctions do we have within the intellect? We have thousands of words and millions of possible ways to describe something. How many distinctions do we have for emotions? How many words? A dozen or so? Sometimes I ask people how they are feeling and they paused stumped. Perhaps someone before going out on a second date. They are immersed in thought trying to figure stuff out. Trying to plan and give meaning to everything. I ask how they feel. "Huh? I don't know. I guess I feel a little nervous, kinda. Maybe it's excitement? Or sorta kinda hopeful? I'm not really sure". Then I ask "what have you been thinking". Without any hesitation they go off on a long-winded detailed explanation of the story going on in there head. Imagine if emotions were top dog and we put 95% of our time and attention into emotional awareness instead of being in our head 95% of the time. We would now have thousands of words and descriptions for emotions. Someone would immediately know they are feeling a mixture of insecurity, attraction, excitement, hope and intrigue. There would be a word for this combination - actually dozens of words for this combination because each component can be mixed with different weights. Just like making a smoothie.

46 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

The problem is that this work is supposed to feel AMAZING. You are essentially cultivating, love, compassion, warmth, creativity, inspiration and opening yourself up to endless possibilities in life. Before you were closed off to them, or you self sabotaged yourself or you were too caught up in negative thoughts to see the light. 

Yes, it seems like people can get trapped into emotional traps, similar to getting caught into intellectual traps. Regarding this work as being emotionally amazing. . . do you think that this analogy is fair?. . . 

Imagine someone that is feeling unsatisfied in life and immerse in life's problems. They want to make some positive changes and decide to start a Yoga program. This could be a great way to meet new healthy people and improve their physical, emotional and spiritual health. Yet after a few weeks the person is full of negativity about how they aren't doing it right, their progress is too slow, everyone else is better, their life still sucks, it's so hard to stay discipline, it's so much work and on and on. . . the join an online message board to complain and then start getting into debates about which Yoga tradition is the best, who were the best Yogis, the proper way to do Yoga etc. Is this a similar case in which you might say "Wait a minute. . . engaging in Yoga as a lifestyle is supposed to feel AMAZING. You are essentially cultivating human connection with others, self love for yourself, improved balance, strength, attention and awareness that increases quality of life. If so, do you think that there are also growing pains during learning Yoga? It's not always easy. It can be challenging and uncomfortable. Yet we can see these times of challenges and discomforts as wonderful progression stages as we become healthier. Working through each hurdle allows for deeper human connection, love and harmony. In this case, we are acknowledging that there are some brief periods of discomfort within an overall path of greater love, compassion, warmth, creativity, harmony, greater possibilities etc. 

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

There's a lot of focus on the dark aspects of spirituality here. I don't need to take drugs, or think very long on how I'm actually Hitler and every concentration camp victim at the same time. If talking about the dark things has value, then we must equally talk about the love and joy. 

My question here is whether you see value in both dark and light themes, which ideally would be balanced. Or if you see dark themes as more of a stepping stone toward light themes. 

I notice many people get immersed into dark theme vortexes in which they just swirl around in. Themes like "my life sucks and women hate me". They seem to want to move past that yet are stuck. When given suggestions about how to grow they seem to want to stay in the "life sucks" mode. I can value in acknowledging the emotion. Yet isn't this an emotional loop of negativity that ideally is moved through? As well there are loops like "the world is filled with evil and misery, how can love exist?". There is also this dynamic in which people seem to get stuck it.

Yet I also think "dark" themes can have deep emotional and human value. Consider a relationship in which someone deeply loved their partner. The break up and feel deep sadness. To me, this type of sadness arose from the deep love and I think there is value in deeply experiencing that sadness. It can be a profound human experience and allow many insights to arise. For me, the sorrow that results from love carves deeply into my being. Like a knife that carves a cavern into my being. And this more expansive cavern increases the space to love even deeper in the future. It's beautiful and a very different dynamic than the "people are low conscious and suck" type of negativity. 

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

There's this sort of unspoken narrative here of being the hero who goes out on his own and discovers the truth and makes the truth his bitch. Equally true is the narrative that life and mother earth brought you forth for a reason and she is loving and leading you towards the truth with every conscious step and misstep you make. 

I've noticed that same dynamic. It is a mentality that I will overcome all and claim enlightenment. As if this is some mountain to be conquered. And once I conquer the mountain I will stand on the top in victory and slam my personal flag into the ground and claim this mountain as mine. I see that type of mentality here. I also see it in real life. A couple weeks ago, I was in Sedona hiking around a mountain. Most people there were hyper focused on getting to the top. To reach the goal. To overcome the mountain. My girlfriend and I hiked halfway up and stopped. We looked around and starting feeling mother nature. We just felt like we were not supposed to climb higher. It was like mother nature told us to go down into the trees and streams so she can teach us. We went down and explored and it was absolutely amazing. The integration of nature. Everything in harmony. There was this beautiful connection, essence, love. At one point we cried. It was so beautiful.

I think this applies to the spiritual path as well. I often feel connected to "spirit guides". I feel so humble and it's so intimate. Like a loving teacher guiding me along. I think this type of connection is really important for spiritual growth.

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

@Serotoninluv

Another paradox is that God is a man, and God is a woman. You have to learn and understand the qualities and viewpoints of the opposite gender, the gender that you were not egoically identified with your entire life, in order to evolve. 

A lot of people use the term "God" in a different context - that  God is infinity, absolute, everything. I like the view you raise masculine / feminine balance. Yin - Yang balance. There are so many features that can be in balance. Firm and delicate in balance.  I also agree that many people are constricted within their own gender construct and don't even realize it. This limits one's potential so much. I've been doing a lot of yin yoga with teachers that really balance what would seem to be opposites,. Grounding and groundlessness. Contraction and expansion. Firm and gentle. It has really opened me up to new possibilities. 

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

 

Is this Enlightenment, Just For Men? Look around at this forum and tell me, if you were a woman who was just getting interested in this work, would you want to stick around here? 

I totally agree and also feel that the dynamics and feel are way off balance. When I go to yoga forums with 90% women, the vibe is so different. Here I do sense off balance toward intellect, debate, figuring shit out, assertiveness, aggression, defensiveness etc. Threads about improving our emotional intelligence, our capacity to love, creativity, right brain development, intimacy etc. Get drowned out with intellectual threads involving debate or trying to figure stuff out intellectually. Imo, one of the most beautiful threads on the forum is "show us your creativity". It is absolutely beautiful. I wish we could have more of that on the forum to balance things out. As well, I've seen a lot of yin get shouted down and dominated by yang. I've seen yin appear get shouted down and then leave. I too would love to see more of a balance.

I really appreciate your views and comments 

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, ajasatya said:

has it? 

we do see patterns on higher levels. is logic innate of the fabric of Reality or a tool for survival and contemplation on the level of the mind?

It has.

The most amazing thing about reality is that it is intelligible. Nothing is arbitrary.

Human logic is a tiny splinter off God's logic.

It's not just patterns and survival. I'm talking about understanding the metaphysical structure of reality and why it is the way it is. There is no accident or randomness to it. It has a Logos.

[zambize]

2 hours ago, mandyjw said:

@Serotoninluv

Creativity, emotion, empathy (or compassion is a better word I think), and intuition are great places to start. Maybe also throw in some communion with nature/mother earth and constantly humble yourself? 

The problem with an emphasis on thinking and analyzing is that it neglects feeling. You have to care about how you feel and when you teach, you have to care about how others feel. Instead the idea here is the very masculine "feelings make me weak, feelings must be destroyed, I'm doing this work so I don't have to feel." This problem is evident by the incessant strings of questions and complaints from people who have fallen into dark depressive states. Here, we just sort of dismiss this as ego backlash and give people a pat on the back for suffering more, because we're taught that the more you suffer the more spiritual you're becoming and the closer to your object of the truth. 

The problem is that this work is supposed to feel AMAZING. You are essentially cultivating, love, compassion, warmth, creativity, inspiration and opening yourself up to endless possibilities in life. Before you were closed off to them, or you self sabotaged yourself or you were too caught up in negative thoughts to see the light. I've done this work for four years now, Leo's videos helped to inspire me and open my mind enough to do it but I sought out different teachings. No psychedelics. Very little meditation. Very little suffering. No sitting down to do much of anything but instead constantly watching my thoughts and training myself how to see. My life before provided all the suffering I needed.  I feel AMAZING. I have mitigated most of the lows that I feel and the only made the highs higher. Events in my life have become so serendipitous that I feel like I'm going f-ing insane every day. But in a good way. The tiniest little things have the power to make me insanely happy. My experiences and desire for truth continue to deepen my understanding and depth of experience. Seemingly organically. 

There's a lot of focus on the dark aspects of spirituality here. I don't need to take drugs, or think very long on how I'm actually Hitler and every concentration camp victim at the same time. If talking about the dark things has value, then we must equally talk about the love and joy. If we are speaking to someone who is already depressed, he needs teachings that are at the very least balanced to guide him to truth. Otherwise there's a real danger of self destruction. That's a topic that's being discussed here daily. Maybe love and joy just doesn't appeal to 20 and 30 something men? It just doesn't sell so well. I understand why Leo had a target audience in the past, but why is he still pandering to it so much? Is this Enlightenment, Just For Men? Look around at this forum and tell me, if you were a woman who was just getting interested in this work, would you want to stick around here? 

So much of truth is paradoxical, so if you lean too far to one side of the paradox and say "this is the way" you tip over the canoe before you make it down the river. So let's take the paradox of, "You must be intensely dedicated to seeking the truth to find it." and "You are already enlightened."

There's this sort of unspoken narrative here of being the hero who goes out on his own and discovers the truth and makes the truth his bitch. Equally true is the narrative that life and mother earth brought you forth for a reason and she is loving and leading you towards the truth with every conscious step and misstep you make. It's a balancing act to keep the dedication to truth without getting a spiritual ego... then comparing your progress with others and expecting rewards from doing a certain amount of work as if spirituality could work out as nicely for you as a math problem would. 

Another paradox is that God is a man, and God is a woman. You have to learn and understand the qualities and viewpoints of the opposite gender, the gender that you were not egoically identified with your entire life, in order to evolve. You also have to consider and embrace their approach to spirituality if you want the truth. Which ironically is why I'm probably getting way more out of Leo's teachings and being around here than the rest of you. 

 

 

 

 

I don't have anything smart to say, just think that was really well worded and think that is an especially valuable perspective for this community which does seem to lean masculine to be exposed to

[Joseph Maynor]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It has.

The most amazing thing about reality is that it is intelligible. Nothing is arbitrary.

Human logic is a tiny splinter off God's logic.

It's not just patterns and survival. I'm talking about understanding the metaphysical structure of reality and why it is the way it is. There is no accident or randomness to it. It has a Logos.

Thanks for another succinct and clear statement Leo.  It really helps me understand your perspective about Enlightenment.  Let's celebrate our diversity around here I say instead of always trying to be the "one right" perspective -- and this goes for me too.  I can be an ass in that way myself always trying to persuade others to see my point of view.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Gabriel Antonio]

On 26/03/2019 at 8:14 AM, Leo Gura said:

Don't you dare question God's will!

The irony is that if it actually happened, it was God's will. Lol. Things only happen by God's will.

You sound like a religious fanatic.

[Joseph Maynor]

32 minutes ago, Gabriel Antonio said:

You sound like a religious fanatic.

I passed through Religion myself but at a much earlier stage on the Path, so I can see how that could be a stage on the Path for certain people.  It might be something that the pendulum of the Ego-Mind needs to swing through and ultimately transcend for certain people, including myself.  That's a good reason not to demonize Religion because it can be a legitimate rung on the ladder of the Path.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Gabriel Antonio said:

You sound like a religious fanatic.

Sure sounds like it the inexperienced.

[Annoynymous]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure sounds like it the inexperienced.

No offence @Leo Gura but you actually sounded like religious fanatic. Words are really tricky,  aren't they?. Maybe that is why we can not use word properly to describe our experience. 

[Gabriel Antonio]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure sounds like it the inexperienced.

Spiritual arrogance detected... 

[now is forever]

14 minutes ago, Gabriel Antonio said:

Spiritual arrogance detected... 

hahaha no, he actually says he is a religious fanatic...

maybe we need a video about irony?

[tsuki]

7 hours ago, mandyjw said:

So much of truth is paradoxical, so if you lean too far to one side of the paradox and say "this is the way" you tip over the canoe before you make it down the river. So let's take the paradox of, "You must be intensely dedicated to seeking the truth to find it." and "You are already enlightened."

@mandyjw You are a breath of fresh air this place needed. Great post.
I resonate with what you wrote a lot.

Don't expect Leo to meet your criticism with a serious response though.
This is an enterprise that is entangled with his livelihood. He's not going to give up what he's selling.
I'm not saying this to berate him in any way. I consider this a service to us.
He's giving up a part of his personal growth so that this place can flower. This commands respect.

[Joseph Maynor]

9 hours ago, mandyjw said:

So much of truth is paradoxical, so if you lean too far to one side of the paradox and say "this is the way" you tip over the canoe before you make it down the river. So let's take the paradox of, "You must be intensely dedicated to seeking the truth to find it." and "You are already enlightened."

You got it Mandy.  I've gone on and on about paradox on here for like a year and it still doesn't sink in to people.  It goes in one ear and out the other.  I've written so much on the subject and people just don't get it.  The believing brain is a serious force to be reckoned with. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[tsuki]

18 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

It goes in one ear and out the other. 

@Joseph Maynor Maybe you have to work both ends of that paradox? Hahaha 

Edited March 28, 2019 by tsuki

[Joseph Maynor]

14 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@Joseph Maynor Maybe you have to work both ends of that paradox? Hahaha 

You got it tsuki my friend.  At least somebody has.  

Edited March 28, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[tsuki]

@Joseph Maynor oh man, being recognized by you feels so good.
I'm really happy that we're opening up.

Edited March 28, 2019 by tsuki
you're -> we're

[Shin]

37 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

You got it Mandy.  I've gone on and on about paradox on here for like a year and it still doesn't sink in to people.  It goes in one ear and out the other.  I've written so much on the subject and people just don't get it.  The believing brain is a serious force to be reckoned with. 

Read again this,

But as if it was being written by a total stranger.

[Joseph Maynor]

13 minutes ago, Shin said:

Read again this,

But as if it was being written by a total stranger.

What do you think Shin?  Give us your take on the content of the discussion here.  Of course this discussion has deviated somewhat from the call of this thread.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[mandyjw]

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

@mandyjw You are a breath of fresh air this place needed. Great post.
I resonate with what you wrote a lot.

Don't expect Leo to meet your criticism with a serious response though.
This is an enterprise that is entangled with his livelihood. He's not going to give up what he's selling.
I'm not saying this to berate him in any way. I consider this a service to us.
He's giving up a part of his personal growth so that this place can flower. This commands respect.

Thank you. That's a really important point and I can't imagine being in Leo's position.  At the same time I believe that the teacher and student are one so I see it as an amazing opportunity. We are pioneers in a way because spiritual teachings and this information for the first time is available to anyone who comes across it. Usually before you would study under a teacher and the teacher would adapt the teachings intuitively depending on where you were. That or it would take you years of seeking and research to get very far. It's incredibly tricky to make videos for a very wide audience and also delve deeply into advanced subjects.