AlwaysBeNice

Using the force of God as an excuse to have sex your son's wife?

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This video is sort of mildly misleading, but it's still instructive and good and worth watching.  It's misleading mostly because it's so brief.  To explain Zen is to do it a deep injustice.  But we have to give the Ego-Mind something to latch onto in the first instance.  I think Zen is best described as work to transcend the Mind.  Now, transcending the Mind is different than killing the Mind.  Transcendence is seeing through the Mind so that you can exit the Mind-Matrix.  This is still a very good video though.

 

Edited by Joseph Maynor

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1 minute ago, tsuki said:

0 and 0. Have you read the book so that you can say that it's really possible to learn that?

i haven't read it yet but i'm eager to read it. got the pdf on my pc already.


unborn Truth

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Just now, ajasatya said:

i haven't read it yet but i'm eager to read it. got the pdf on my pc already.

You're the lucky one. You just have to read a book.
Now I have to travel around the world and talk to Zen masters in person :D.


Bearing with the conditioned in gentleness, fording the river with resolution, not neglecting what is distant, not regarding one's companions; thus one may manage to walk in the middle. H11L2

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57 minutes ago, lmfao said:

How could there be some sort of "why" reason. Things are just what they are. 

Things are not just as they are. They are a very specific way, a very deliberate and intelligent way. Everything is intelligible. It is possible to become conscious of why every hair on your arm exists exactly as it does and not otherwise.

It is possible to understand why the whole universe exists. Profound awakening required of course. This is no ordinary reason. You must penetrate the very structure of God. It has a logic to it.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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2 hours ago, tsuki said:

@ajasatya What about the material written by Zen masters? Like Dogen's Shobogenzo, or koans.

A contemporary paraphrasing of the Shobogenzo. I found it to be the most difficult of all of Warners books. Dogen actually expounded quite a bit on how Monks should wipe their butt. Why is this relevant? Warner has a lot of insights into Dogen and the extremely difficult text of the Shobogenzo. He also knows the value of humor.

 


"To have a free mind is to be a universal heretic." - A.H. Almaas

"We have to bless the living crap out of everyone." - Matt Kahn

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@tsuki Based on my experience with Zen and buddhist sanghas. . . . Most nonmeditators have not left room 214 of the hotel. Most long-term meditators have stuck their head out of room 214 and realize there is a hallway and other rooms. Most monks have left room 214 explored other rooms on the second floor. Yet they haven't realized there is an elevator and other floors.

There is nothing wrong with room 214 or other rooms on the second floor. The are amazing things to explore. Yet there are also other floors and rooms.

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20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You must penetrate the very structure of God. It has a logic to it.

has it? xD

we do see patterns on higher levels. is logic innate of the fabric of Reality or a tool for survival and contemplation on the level of the mind?

Edited by ajasatya

unborn Truth

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17 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@tsuki Based on my experience with Zen and buddhist sanghas. . . . Most nonmeditators have not left room 214 of the hotel. Most long-term meditators have stuck their head out of room 214 and realize there is a hallway and other rooms. Most monks have left room 214 explored other rooms on the second floor. Yet they haven't realized there is an elevator and other floors.

There is nothing wrong with room 214 or other rooms on the second floor. The are amazing things to explore. Yet there are also other floors and rooms.

@Serotoninluv I didn't mean to imply that Zen is the best teaching there is. I started this discussion in relation to the way in which Leo talks about spirituality using terms with cultural baggage. Since I have no experience in formal practices of this tradition, I avoided addressing this topic.

After this whole discussion I came to realize that I was hoping that there could be universal, integrated method for enlightenment that would be resistant to egoic influence. Zen seems that way because it is a distillation of advanced spiritual teaching to the point of silence. This silence however seems like a reason for why it is so widely misunderstood and traps people in all the wrong places.

I suppose that the best we can do for now is to attract highly realized people to observe commonalities while trying to minimize nondual bickering.
Thanks @ajasatya @Serotoninluv @Joseph Maynor .

Edited by tsuki

Bearing with the conditioned in gentleness, fording the river with resolution, not neglecting what is distant, not regarding one's companions; thus one may manage to walk in the middle. H11L2

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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Things are not just as they are. They are a very specific way, a very deliberate and intelligent way. Everything is intelligible. It is possible to become conscious of why every hair on your arm exists exactly as it does and not otherwise.

It is possible to understand why the whole universe exists. Profound awakening required of course. This is no ordinary reason. You must penetrate the very structure of God. It has a logic to it.

Do you realize how analytical and masculine your approach is? You've got to balance things out to fully grasp truth on a deep level. You've especially got to balance it out when you're teaching people who are struggling to get a basic understanding of that which cannot be understood. 

 

 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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@Leo Gura  Isn't God's will actually fragmented into infinite perspectives of each aspect of god,each creature that manifests consciousness? Doesn't that indicate that there really is no unified or static will of God, at least in the dimension we are experiencing? The will of god might be in the manifestation of cause and effect, nothing more.  Just thinking out loud here.

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3 hours ago, tsuki said:

After this whole discussion I came to realize that I was hoping that there could be universal, integrated method for enlightenment that would be resistant to egoic influence. Zen seems that way because it is a distillation of advanced spiritual teaching to the point of silence. This silence however seems like a reason for why it is so widely misunderstood and traps people in all the wrong places.

That would be nice, yet egos enter and interfere. For example, we could design an approach that integrates mediation and psychedelics. How would that approach go over within the Zen community? How would that approach go over with the psychonaut community? I have over 20 years of experience with meditation and sanghas without the use of a single drug. I also have experience with about 100 psychedelic trips. I have a lot of experience with both and I can tell you from direct experience both are useful tools. As well, I have integrated Yoga practice. What I found is that when I mention psychedelics as a tool within a sangha or yoga group, there is enormous resistance. Extremely strong resistance about how psychedelics are delusional, a distraction, dangerous, addicted etc. On the flip side, if I am with a group of psychonauts and talk about the value of years of meditation and yoga practice, there is huge resistance. They say all that stuff takes too long and isn't necessary for awakening. They tell me the true enlightenment experiences come through psychedelic trips and all that mediation is a waste of time. I spent months with people in Peru totally immersed in Ayahuasca ceremonies. They had all these random insights, yet they were delusional in their own little world talking nonsensically about things like illusory time - all day long. . . . It was immature and ungrounded. They were wandering around doing 2-3 Ayahuasca ceremonies a week - some of them for years. I tried to tell them the value of integrating Ayahuasca experiences with meditation, journaling and yoga now and over the years. They looked at me like I was one of those "clueless meditators" and went back off into la-la land for hours rambling on and on about other dimensions. Similarly, I've spent time with life-long meditators and monks explaining the value of psychedelics as a tool when integrated with mediation. The response is the similar - that I am a misguided, drug-induced delusional being with good intentions.

Each side is unwilling to let go of their own way and expand. Yet each sides has immense value and their synergy takes consciousness work to the next level. 

Those that use a hammer insist the hammer is best and are closed to other tools. Those that use a saw insist the saw is best and are closed to other tools. A being that is open to using all tools and develops those skills is on a different level. This being becomes a skilled carpenter. 

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7 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Zen is best thought of as just Zen, not as Buddhism at all.  I'm pointing these out to be helpful not to be a smartass.  I've actually researched a lot about Zen and studied a lot about Zen in the last few months.  Zen is a very special animal, best thought of as only itself.  What Zen is pointing to has nothing to do with teachings.  Zen is pointing to transcendence of the Mind, a transcendence of the believing brain.  That doesn't have anything to do with ideology -- that's a transcendence of ideology.  Zen pops you out of the Mind-Matrix, but that doesn't mean that anything changes, if that makes sense.  Whatever you had going into Zen is what you'll have coming out of it.  That's the whole point.  Zen is not about paradigms at all.

it’s difficult to separate zen from buddhism as there is not only one zen and there is not only one buddhism. zen is indeed a form of buddhism that developed in certain countries of asia but as well as you can’t separate zen completely from their cultures you can’t separate zen completely from buddhism. so i‘d be careful while separating the yolk from the white - the proteins that nourish the chicken are in the white.

edit: @Serotoninluv hehe that seems to be the case for most spiritual groups/schools/communities. it’s basically like trying to exchange the yolk of two different eggs and still expect the egg to breed a chicken or better put two yolks together and expect them to melt to one and this to develope into a chicken. 

Edited by now is forever

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54 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Both sides are unwilling to let go of their own way and expand. Yet both sides have immense value and their synergy takes consciousness work to the next level. 

@Serotoninluv Very, very unfortunate.

I suppose this is the true value of Actualized.org. A place where we can mix and match ingredients of various spiritual traditions while sprinkling it with our own advancements. In growing ourselves, we let our approach speak for itself and let other people decide what they gravitate towards. This way we don't have to convince anybody and avoid external conflict. I always thought that the lesser jihad is a distraction.

I also think that criticizing traditions for their lack of efficiency in awakening people isn't right either. These movements are integrated with society and are something that helps establish its order. Spiritually speaking, at the very least they serve as big signposts that there is something out there beyond ordinary dormant state of being. There is a good reason that the path is called a path - one needs to find what serves him best and in doing that learn to transcend suffering independently. Actualized.org in this sense is a path within a path - a honeypot on the verge of society for those of us that want to go really deep.

The last observation I have is that spirituality that is separated from everyday life is wasteful.
If we can't get people interested in what we do simply by spending our lives doing everyday matters, then no verbal convincing and arguing will help.
People that do not apply their spirituality and just engage in non-dual chatter are just as dormant as any other transmitter of culture. This is fine, spirituality needs to live, but there is so much more one can get out of this. This is why I think that depth is a trap and Zen deals with it very elegantly. It uses its simplicity to shine the beauty forth and lure people in as a form of marketing.

From an outside perspective, zazen looks like an insanely advanced technique that is a pinnacle of a very long tradition. It's deceptively simple and anybody can learn it, but precisely because of it, it is so easily misunderstood. It's like all of those yogic traditions that sound superstitious to modern people because Western point of reference is out of focus with the context in which they were developed in. No wonder that Zen doesn't have much to show for, but there has to be a path within Zen for genuine seekers too. That lineage would have died a long time ago otherwise.

Edited by tsuki

Bearing with the conditioned in gentleness, fording the river with resolution, not neglecting what is distant, not regarding one's companions; thus one may manage to walk in the middle. H11L2

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7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Things are not just as they are. They are a very specific way, a very deliberate and intelligent way. Everything is intelligible. It is possible to become conscious of why every hair on your arm exists exactly as it does and not otherwise.

It is possible to understand why the whole universe exists. Profound awakening required of course. This is no ordinary reason. You must penetrate the very structure of God. It has a logic to it.

Wow.  Interesting.  I guess that's what's great about the Forum is we all have different "views" of Enlightenment.  We must learn to celebrate these differences and become tolerant of these differences while at the same time continuing to discuss and hash things out with each another.  It's a tricky balance to find sometimes.  This is a very well put and succinct statement of by Leo about his view of Enlightenment though. 

Edited by Joseph Maynor

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6 hours ago, mandyjw said:

Do you realize how analytical and masculine your approach is? You've got to balance things out to fully grasp truth on a deep level. You've especially got to balance it out when you're teaching people who are struggling to get a basic understanding of that which cannot be understood. 

:x

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@Serotoninluv good point

20 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

They can also save a teacher years of teaching. A six hour trip can teach a person far more in five hours than I could in five years. 

 

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8 hours ago, ajasatya said:

we do see patterns on higher levels. is logic innate of the fabric of Reality

 Pure - orderly intelligence on the most subtle level.

 

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8 hours ago, mandyjw said:

Do you realize how analytical and masculine your approach is? You've got to balance things out to fully grasp truth on a deep level. You've especially got to balance it out when you're teaching people who are struggling to get a basic understanding of that which cannot be understood. 

I'm hoping you can tell me more about your perspective here. I have a background that had been dominated by analysis - earlier in my life I was hyper-analytical and hyper-logical. Many people would describe this as "Masculine". Over the last several years, I've spent a lot of time working on non-intellectual modes of being. I'm interested in learning from a perspective that calls out Masculine intellect from a feminine perspective. As well, my sense on the forum is that it can get off balance toward more masculine analysis and intellects at the expense of more "feminine" such as creativity, emotion, empathy and intuition. I feel that these perspectives are really important for balance on the forum.

When you say "balance things out to fully grasp truth on a deep level" what do you mean by "balance things out"? Are you referring to modes of being more associated with feminine? Such as emotional and empathetic modes?

As well, can you explain what you mean by using this balance to help others that are struggling? Again, would this mean relating to them on emotional and empathetic levels?

I encounter this quite often as a science teacher and it is an area I want to improve in. Some of my student evaluations feel similar to your comment. Sometimes I get the sense I have forgotten how hard it is to learn stuff as a student and the struggles that go along with it. This can limit my ability to connect with students on emotional and empathetic levels. I'm curious if this is the type of thing you are sensing here.

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@tsuki Thank you for your insights on spirituality and cultures. Last week I had a long conversation with a religious history scholar. Some of his comments echoed yours. About how religion / spirituality was shaped within the context of culture and served the culture. Sometimes I view religions / spirituality from the lens of my own culture at this time in history. It can be mind expanding when I really think about what the culture was like during previous time periods and how culture and religion/spirituality interacted with each other and shaped each other. You offered a few points I had not considered and that helps expand my perspective. 

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@Serotoninluv

Creativity, emotion, empathy (or compassion is a better word I think), and intuition are great places to start. Maybe also throw in some communion with nature/mother earth and constantly humble yourself? 

The problem with an emphasis on thinking and analyzing is that it neglects feeling. You have to care about how you feel and when you teach, you have to care about how others feel. Instead the idea here is the very masculine "feelings make me weak, feelings must be destroyed, I'm doing this work so I don't have to feel." This problem is evident by the incessant strings of questions and complaints from people who have fallen into dark depressive states. Here, we just sort of dismiss this as ego backlash and give people a pat on the back for suffering more, because we're taught that the more you suffer the more spiritual you're becoming and the closer to your object of the truth. 

The problem is that this work is supposed to feel AMAZING. You are essentially cultivating, love, compassion, warmth, creativity, inspiration and opening yourself up to endless possibilities in life. Before you were closed off to them, or you self sabotaged yourself or you were too caught up in negative thoughts to see the light. I've done this work for four years now, Leo's videos helped to inspire me and open my mind enough to do it but I sought out different teachings. No psychedelics. Very little meditation. Very little suffering. No sitting down to do much of anything but instead constantly watching my thoughts and training myself how to see. My life before provided all the suffering I needed.  I feel AMAZING. I have mitigated most of the lows that I feel and the only made the highs higher. Events in my life have become so serendipitous that I feel like I'm going f-ing insane every day. But in a good way. The tiniest little things have the power to make me insanely happy. My experiences and desire for truth continue to deepen my understanding and depth of experience. Seemingly organically. 

There's a lot of focus on the dark aspects of spirituality here. I don't need to take drugs, or think very long on how I'm actually Hitler and every concentration camp victim at the same time. If talking about the dark things has value, then we must equally talk about the love and joy. If we are speaking to someone who is already depressed, he needs teachings that are at the very least balanced to guide him to truth. Otherwise there's a real danger of self destruction. That's a topic that's being discussed here daily. Maybe love and joy just doesn't appeal to 20 and 30 something men? It just doesn't sell so well. I understand why Leo had a target audience in the past, but why is he still pandering to it so much? Is this Enlightenment, Just For Men? Look around at this forum and tell me, if you were a woman who was just getting interested in this work, would you want to stick around here? 

So much of truth is paradoxical, so if you lean too far to one side of the paradox and say "this is the way" you tip over the canoe before you make it down the river. So let's take the paradox of, "You must be intensely dedicated to seeking the truth to find it." and "You are already enlightened."

There's this sort of unspoken narrative here of being the hero who goes out on his own and discovers the truth and makes the truth his bitch. Equally true is the narrative that life and mother earth brought you forth for a reason and she is loving and leading you towards the truth with every conscious step and misstep you make. It's a balancing act to keep the dedication to truth without getting a spiritual ego... then comparing your progress with others and expecting rewards from doing a certain amount of work as if spirituality could work out as nicely for you as a math problem would. 

Another paradox is that God is a man, and God is a woman. You have to learn and understand the qualities and viewpoints of the opposite gender, the gender that you were not egoically identified with your entire life, in order to evolve. You also have to consider and embrace their approach to spirituality if you want the truth. Which ironically is why I'm probably getting way more out of Leo's teachings and being around here than the rest of you. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by mandyjw

My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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