Realization doesn’t need any knowledge

[Highest]

6 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Not the Zen Masters.  That's why Zen is the highest teaching.

We can agree to disagree ??

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Highest said:

We can agree to disagree ??

Ok, but your non-dual metaphysics is not the be-all-end-all for Enlightenment nor the one true litmus-test for Enlightenment.

[Highest]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Ok, but your non-dual metaphysics is not the be-all-end-all for Enlightenment nor the one true litmus-test for Enlightenment.

Okay, we all have our own unuqie perspectives etc etc. Keep doing your thing, I will keep doing my thing. ??

[Joseph Maynor]

20 minutes ago, Highest said:

Okay, we all have our own unuqie perspectives etc etc. Keep doing your thing, I will keep doing my thing. ??

It just bugs me when people assume that you have to believe in the official "Non-Dual Metaphysics" to be Enlightened.  That goes against the whole concept of Enlightenment for me insofar as I'm concerned.  Enlightenment is not a shared paradigm that everybody learns from reading the same textbook.  When I hear people spout those same cookie-cutter non-dual metaphysical beliefs, I cringe a little bit and die a little bit inside.  They sound like a bunch of robots who watched the same after-school special on TV about Enlightenment.  Enlightenment ain't no after-school special, I can tell you that!  You're not gonna become Enlightened by learning the one right theory of anything!  That will actually take you 500 miles in the opposite direction from Enlightenment.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Highest]

10 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

It just bugs me when people assume that you have to believe in the official "Non-Dual Metaphysics" to be Enlightened.  That goes against the whole concept of Enlightenment for me insofar as I'm concerned.  Enlightenment is not a shared paradigm that everybody learns from reading the same textbook.  When I hear people spout those same cookie-cutter non-dual metaphysical beliefs, I cringe a little bit and die a little bit inside.  They sound like a bunch of robots who watched the same after-school special on TV about Enlightenment.  Enlightenment ain't no after school special, I can tell you that!  You're not gonna become Enlightened by learning the one right theory of anything.  That will actually take you 500 miles in the opposite direction from Enlightenment.

That's your perspective and that's okay. My perspective is that of total non-duality. Again we have all our own perspectives. You should respect that and understand it. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Just now, Highest said:

That's your perspective and that's okay. My perspective is that of total non-duality. Again we have all our own perspectives. You should respect that and understand it. 

I do respect that actually.  But I also stand by what I said too.

[Highest]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

I do respect that actually.  But I also stand by what I said too.

??

[Joseph Maynor]

4 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

Eh.

There is only one Truth. (Or beyond the concept of "one", but still.) It's the same Truth. 

And also, it's not a belief or concept.

Sure, from your paradigm that makes sense.  But you still seem very closed-minded to people who deviate from your paradigm.  You could learn something about tolerance from what Highest said a couple of posts up.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

9 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

It's not a paradigm, it's not about my mind, it's not about tolerance.

You think you're right.  Go have fun with that.  But discussion with you is useless unless someone already agrees with your "Truth" as you call it.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[SOUL]

Even no concept and no belief is a conceptual belief and even truth is a conceptual belief. This is the type of guru doublespeak that points to someone else's conceptual belief as an illusion and calls their own as the truth. That sort of word dance is the game one plays when trying to be 'right' and having the 'truth' while telling other's they are 'wrong' and 'illusion'.

It isn't that there is no conceptual belief that passes through perception at all which makes for the awakened experience that people call the conceptual belief of 'enlightenment'. It's the attachment to that conceptual belief which may cause self suffering in the one it passes through. If a conceptual belief is enshrined as truth it has the power to cause suffering to the one that empowers it.

Someone perceptive might say to me 'aha, are you not calling your own truth and another's an illusion'? I'll reply that it's all conceptual belief that passes through perception, even my own perspective but it doesn't cause self suffering because I do not enshrine my perspective as truth. It's a momentary perspective and awakening is the presence of being in the moment not the perspective's contents in that moment.

Awakening to oneness will have infinite perspectives of perception to experience in infinite moments of now to experience them but isn't any one of them, all of them or none of them. It's the being present in the moment of perceiving, not what passes through as the content of the perception. Our presence of being allows for whatever passes through perception to be as it is but don't build a shrine to any of it.

Realization is awakening to presence of being in the moment, knowledge is what passes through the perception and is expressed infinitely. Attaching to any of it can cause self suffering through our enshrining it as truth but don't enshrine this realization either....let it be what it is.