Spacious

Ken Wilber Inteview On Jordan Peterson

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@Serotoninluv so do you think it's a matter of studying those teachings in depth? I'm aware there is good and bad in everything and I love how yellow thinkers are very impartial about everything (impersonal as you mentioned) and from not picking a side they are able to see see further than the good and bad, that's what fascinates me, BUT I've said in the past I don't like JP and the truth is that I've never read his books or watched a substantial amount of his lectures to say something, I just don't enjoy much his energy. 

My concern is exposing myself to his teachings and falling in the many traps of black and white thinking, many of my friends are JP fanatics and I would like to understand the subject better, (not to mention I'm aware I've already picked a side by being anti-JP :ph34r:) what I truly I want is to open my mind and be able to see the big picture but my ego is like an adhesive tape sticking to all it can xD ,what would be the best way to proceed with this exploration?

I'm orange transitioning to green with some sprinkles of yellow.


"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Shakespeare

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCqtX3EPGsnmWjK76m5Vpbw

 

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I'm 20 mn in.

As a lawyer, I am a bit skeptical about what Ken Wilber says about Bill C-16.

Law is a social construct, which means that you cannot guess it or understand it instinctively. And this fact is also valid for him. The entry bar is high. There are hundreds of concepts to understand before you can form a decent opinion. Artificial, arbitrary ones which are all tangled into each other.

Basically, Wilber could be projecting and be mislead by his interpretation of the situation. All the feedbacks I got from trusted source is that Bill C 16 is terribly misunderstood by the general public.

 

 

 

Edited by Etherial Cat

“If you are irritated by every rub, how will you be polished?” - Rumi.

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1 hour ago, Sri McDonald Trump Maharaj said:

Wilber.jpg

Wow!  This is awesome.  Let's be evangelical integralists!  The whole world needs my concept of integration.  My philosophy is gonna intellectually solve all the world's problems.

Edited by Joseph Maynor

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@Etherial Cat if you read JP you will learn that it is not entirely JUST a construction. It is the way we behaved for thousands of years and only than we make it explicit. So example Moses on the mountain is coming down with the laws after the a revelation. It's not like people were saveges and when he dropped the ten commandments people were like, oou fuck so that's how you behave. No. The other way around. We behave in away, that was implicit, like wolfs, they don't kill the weakest even though they could,but they know that later in a hunt they will need more numbers, but if you ask them why they can't tell you shit, So people back than behave implicitly in a way that they could function as a society and only later, as we look at each other behaving over time we are seeing what the fuck are we actually doing so it strucks you, it becomes explicit and the dude comes down from the mountain and is saying look dudes here is what are we doing and it looks like when we are not abiding these laws shit hits the fan.  Makes sense? 


“The decisive question for man is: Is he related to something infinite or not? That is the telling question of his life. Only if we know that the thing which truly matters is the infinite can we avoid fixing our interests upon futilities, and upon all kinds of goals which are not of real importance. Thus we demand that the world grant us recognition for qualities which we regard as personal possessions: our talent or our beauty. The more a man lays stress on false possessions, and the less sensitivity he has for what is essential, the less satisfying is his life. He feels limited because he has limited aims, and the result is envy and jealousy. If we understand and feel that here in this life we already have a link with the infinite, desires and attitudes change.” - Carl Jung

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1 minute ago, Arnold666 said:

@Etherial Cat if you read JP you will learn that it is not entirely JUST a construction. It is the way we behaved for thousands of years and only than we make it explicit. So example Moses on the mountain is coming down with the laws after the a revelation. It's not like people were saveges and when he dropped the ten commandments people were like, oou fuck so that's how you behave. No. The other way around. We behave in away, that was implicit, like wolfs, they don't kill the weakest even though they could,but they know that later in a hunt they will need more numbers, but if you ask them why they can't tell you shit, So people back than behave implicitly in a way that they could function as a society and only later, as we look at each other behaving over time we are seeing what the fuck are we actually doing so it strucks you, it becomes explicit and the dude comes down from the mountain and is saying look dudes here is what are we doing and it looks like when we are not abiding these laws shit hits the fan.  Makes sense? 

Of course, natural growth hierarchies are reflected in that, but I don't see how your point is relevant regarding what I said concerning Bill C-16? 

I watched now 35mn of that video, and I must say I don't see anything ground breaking. Leo's position is far from being nullified by Wilber.

I always heard him saying that Green is getting caught excessively in postmodernism and goes as far as denying natural hierarchies.  Which I, by the way, agree with.

He even mentioned that Peterson had some Yellow in him in his Spiral Dynamic Yellow video, but his problem is that he is excessively demonizing Green. All of this is still standing so far


“If you are irritated by every rub, how will you be polished?” - Rumi.

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8 hours ago, Spacious said:

 @Outer There is a large shadow lurking in the background of this forum and Actualized.org in relation to Jordan Peterson.

Bam!  Leo needs to make a video on Shadow Work.  The Shadow is the disowned part of the Ego that the Ego is trying to distance itself from.  This is like religious people trying to live a pure life, you gotta constantly be demonizing aspects of yourself.  And then you can pretend that you don't have that part of yourself and go after those traits in others.  Look at how evil that person is, you might say, while forgetting that the reason you are motivated to react in the first place is because you're disowning and disidentifying with that evil (or an analogous evil) within yourself.  We tend to react to things that ping our Ego's Shadow and crusade against and bitch about those.  So, when I see someone rant about something, the first thing I do is look to see if that person is disowning and disidentifying from aspects of their Ego.  If you're not clinging, there's less need for ranting or bitching because you don't get triggered so much.

Edited by Joseph Maynor

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1 hour ago, tsuki said:

@Serotoninluv How convenient of you to point out the lack of yellow-level discussion when your and Leo's stance on Peterson has been discredited by an authority. I expect that you will hold this stance with the same passion in other threads about Peterson as well. Like the ones that will inevitably bash him in the future.

That is one interpretation. Yet it is also a contracted interpretation which limits a mind from exploring more expansive views.

As well, you are making assumptions about discredits and authority figures as well as future perspectives. Assumptions I do not assume or am attached to. Again, this is a contracted limited view.

For now, I am detached from the content and I am more interested in the underlying egoic psychological dynamics at play. Are you able to detach from your view and observe this dynamic? This insight is far more profound than defending any view you are attached to. 

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28 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Of course, natural growth hierarchies are reflected in that, but I don't see how your point is relevant regarding what I said concerning Bill C-16? 

I watched now 35mn of that video, and I must say I don't see anything ground breaking. Leo's position is far from being nullified by Wilber.

I always heard him saying that Green is getting caught excessively in postmodernism and goes as far as denying natural hierarchies.  Which I, by the way, agree with.

He even mentioned that Peterson had some Yellow in him in his Spiral Dynamic Yellow video, but his problem is that he is excessively demonizing Green. All of this is still standing so far

Where Leo's and Wilber's positions fundamentally differ is that Wilber recognizes the presence of a repressive green, which might hinder the evolution of previous stages in a way that the groups between themselves actually cannot resolve. This means that Peterson is right in his attempt to make people integrate stage blue and orange, as otherwise it will lead to a clash between the groups. A group will not evolve into the next stage if all examples of the next stage are dysfunctional, it simply creates too much resistance. So much so that there is actually a regression back into tribalism.

 

Leo's position is that Peterson is exaggerating, and that the actual problem is a reactive blue and orange towards green. In fact that is where Leo puts Jordan Peterson, he views him as a reactionary from below instead of the top. That leads him to advocate to push people towards green, as you can see for example in Leo's Bernie Sanders post on the blog. Leo basically wants to push society into green, instead of having blue and orange naturally and organically develop as they see their own limitations, which is basically what happened before we had such a dysfunctional green appear from the postmodernists overreaction away from blue and orange.

 

Wilber sees this as a problem that is almost unsolvable, because you cannot really get a dysfunctional green to recognize their repression. And because there is a dysfunctional green, the previous stages are reluctant to transition into anything that even remotely resembles green. That leads orange and blue to call everything green dysfunctional green, and it leads the dysfunctional green to grow even larger as they do not integrate the previous stages. This inevitably will lead to growing tribalism that looks almost unsolvable from a yellow perspective.

I think Leo is partly correct that orange and blue are reacting to green simply because that is the nature of the dynamics, but I think he lacks the depth in understand that Wilber is presenting in his explanations. And that actually leads to very different conclusions, which lead to different behavior and different outcome. Leo's position is not nullified, it is exposed as primitive and not thought-through. Yes, it has validity, but the lack in nuance might lead Leo to advocate for behavior that might contribute to the problem instead of helping it. I think Leo is blind-spotted due to the urgency we have to transition into green. This world is falling apart because of stage orange and blue activity, but the problem is that we cannot simply force-transition society into green if the foundation of the current green is not rock solid, with proper integration of previous stages.

 

By the way, one of the ways we can observe that blue and orange are not properly integrated is the reaction of the public towards Jordan Peterson. If you actually look at his psychological advice it is very much geared towards integration of these stages, and people are going crazy over it, precisely because it is so utterly lacking in western societies. And you can also observe the repressive green reaction to perfectly reasonable blue and orange integration. The fact that they react to it so energetically really shows how they have not integrated these concepts at all. Anyone who does personal development will look at Petersons work and not be impressed, because people who do personal development actually DO integrate stage blue and orange healthily. But everything that is going on is a very vital symptom of a deep dysfunction in our society, which Wilber recognizes and Leo does not.

 

Edited by Scholar

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8 hours ago, Outer said:

 

 

Some short statements, jokes, long statements against Jordan Peterson. Take that as an approximation what some prominent members of the forum thought/think of him.

What do you think of this video?

@Serotoninluv @Emerald

I think Ken Wilber is mistaken about Jordan Peterson.

There are certainly different ways that JP is an integral thinker in terms of his combination of many different facets of the human experience into one unified outlook. And this is the exact right direction to go in, in general. This is why JP is so disappointing to me. He takes everything on the right level but leads everyone in the wrong direction on that level. 

So, he is in resistance to the move forward to Green and reacts heavily against it as opposed to integrating it, which is the very opposite of holistic and integral thinking.

It is clear that JP believes that Blue and Orange are the correct and in-alignment way to live and think about things. And he is in deep resistance to Green and has a reactionary way of dealing with that perspective that shows resistance rather than acceptance and holism. And his work tends to bring that out in people, and puts people in opposition to forward movement. This is why I call him the Trojan Horse of human regression.

Like it or not, society is currently moving into Green, and if we are wise we will not resist that movement on the thought that it's somehow happening the wrong way. There is wisdom in how things are occurring. And even if it is polarizing and volatile, it is not happening wrong. Even the militant Green people act as a teaching tool.

That said, even the resistance against Green helps us move more toward Green in the long run. So, even JP with all his resistance against Green is creating a kind of traction to move the vehicle forward. He is showing everyone the shadow of our humanity and how it brandishes itself in the movement he is creating.

It is threatening, and I feel unsafe because of it as a woman. But none-the-less, he is helping the forward momentum, even in his leading people backwards toward what he mistakenly things is bringing things back into alignment.


Click here to watch my Free 60-Minute Shadow Integration Masterclass!

The masterclass includes all the foundational information you need for beginning a Shadow Work practice. DM me if you have any questions and I'll get back to you as soon as possible.

 

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@Scholar Don’t assume you understand Leo’s position. He is not here to clarify misinterpretations. Feel free to generically state perspectives, yet don’t speak for Leo.

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6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

That is one interpretation. Yet it is also a contracted interpretation which limits a mind from exploring more expansive views.

As well, you are making assumptions about discredits and authority figures as well as future perspectives. Assumptions I do not assume or am attached to. Again, this is a contracted limited view.

For now, I am detached from the content and I am more interested in the underlying psycholigical dynamic at play. Are you able to detach from your view and observe this dynamic? This insight is far more profound than defending any view you are attached to. 

@Serotoninluv I guess that you're too turquoise to have a conversation like a human being.
I think that your detachment will not help you to connect with people in any meaningful way.
Whatever reasons you have for evading my original question - I hope that they serve you well.


The true heresy is hearsay.

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Just now, Serotoninluv said:

@Scholar Don’t assume you understand Leo’s position. He is not here to clarify misinterpretations.

I think we will get a response from him once he is back from the retreat, until then we can only speculate. I probably am not entirely accurate, but that is to be expected. Either way, I would love if you could contribute to this discussion.

 

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1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Where Leo's and Wilber's positions fundamentally differ is that Wilber recognizes the presence of a repressive green, which might hinder the evolution of previous stages in a way that the groups between themselves actually cannot resolve. This means that Peterson is right in his attempt to make people integrate stage blue and orange, as otherwise it will lead to a clash between the groups. A group will not evolve into the next stage if all examples of the next stage are dysfunctional, it simply creates too much resistance. So much so that there is actually a regression back into tribalism.

 

Leo's position is that Peterson is exaggerating, and that the actual problem is a reactive blue and orange towards green. In fact that is where Leo puts Jordan Peterson, he views him as a reactionary from below instead of the top. That leads him to advocate to push people towards green, as you can see for example in Leo's Bernie Sanders post on the blog. Leo basically wants to push society into green, instead of having blue and orange naturally and organically develop as they see their own limitations, which is basically what happened before we had such a dysfunctional green appear from the postmodernists overreaction away from blue and orange.

 

Wilber sees this as a problem that is almost unsolvable, because you cannot really get a dysfunctional green to recognize their repression. And because there is a dysfunctional green, the previous stages are reluctant to transition into anything that even remotely resembles green. That leads orange and blue to call everything green dysfunctional green, and it leads the dysfunctional green to grow even larger as they do not integrate the previous stages. This inevitably will lead to growing tribalism that looks almost unsolvable from a yellow perspective.

I think Leo is partly correct that orange and blue are reacting to green simply because that is the nature of the dynamics, but I think he lacks the depth in understand that Wilber is presenting in his explanations. And that actually leads to very different conclusions, which lead to different behavior and different outcome. Leo's position is not nullified, it is exposed as primitive and not thought-through. Yes, it has validity, but the lack in nuance might lead Leo to advocate for behavior that might contribute to the problem instead of helping it.

 

 

The devil is in the details.

Leo definitely recognizes the presence of a repressive Green. For being myself a Green/Yellow type with experiences of Turquoise, I can tell that Leo is as critical to Green as the other stages.  Actually, quite often my "Greenness" has been offended by some of his ways. 

What I can imagine, is that he's pushing Green quite often against mainstream Orange culture, which is the dominant one. Hence the feeling some can have that he's overindulgent towards Green.

Peterson is often used by Blue and Orange people (which by the way are most of the time integrated by actualized.org followers) in order to comfort themselves from a lower perspective than from the higher you describe.

I still don't think that Peterson understand Green, which is the reason why I have a bone to pick with him.  To me, he's Blue/Orange with some Yellow, and can't move forward because he failed at incorporating Green.

 


“If you are irritated by every rub, how will you be polished?” - Rumi.

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3 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@Serotoninluv I guess that you're too turquoise to have a conversation like a human being.
I think that your detachment will not help you to connect with people in any meaningful way.
Whatever reasons you have for evading my original question - I hope that they serve you well.

You don’t seem to have interest in exploring an area that appears to be outside your comfort zone, which I respect. 

I may offer a perspective on the content later. I have bigger fish to fry for now. Why chew on tin foil when one can have a delicious smoothy?

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2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

You don’t seem to have interest in exploring an area that appears to be outside your comfort zone, which I respect. 

@Serotoninluv Does the fact that I'm not willing to explore it imply that it is outside of my comfort zone?

Stupid question. My mind just hanged up. Sorry.

Edited by tsuki

The true heresy is hearsay.

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16 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@Serotoninluv Does the fact that I'm not willing to explore it imply that it is outside of my comfort zone?

Stupid question. My mind just hanged up. Sorry.

Exactly. 🤗

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Just now, Etherial Cat said:

The devil is in the details.

Leo definitely recognizes the presence of a repressive Green. For being myself a Green/Yellow type with experiences of Turquoise, I can tell that Leo is as critical to Green as the other stages.  Actually, quite often my "Greenness" has been offended by some of his ways. 

What I can imagine, is that he's pushing Green quite often against mainstream Orange culture, which is the dominant one. Hence the feeling some can have that he's overindulgent towards Green.

Peterson is often used by Blue and Orange people (which by the way are most of the time integrated by actualized.org followers) in order to comfort themselves from a lower perspective than from the higher you describe.

I still don't think that Peterson understand Green, which is the reason why I have a bone to pick with him.  To me, he's Blue/Orange with some Yellow, and can't move forward because he failed at incorporating Green.

 

The problem is that people in western society do not even integrate blue well, let alone orange. Look at how many dysfunctional people there are. Well, you don't even see them because they sit at home wasting their time with pornography addiction and other dysfunctions. This is a huge problem, and nobody is teaching these people to integrate blue or orange in the mainstream, other than Jordan Peterson. That is why many react so well to him, do you really deny the benefit he has on hundreds of thousands of people who integrated his advice in his life and transformed their existence from a pathetic weazel to something remotely resembling a functional human being? That is essential for them if we want people to transition to green.

Again, we are repressing orange and blue, and I do not understand how so many people cannot see that. The evidence is clear, there is an endless amount of dysfunctional people who benefit from Jordan Petersons advice. We have to be patient and let them transition into green.

You miss the point, this is not about Peterson, this is about society.

6 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I think Ken Wilber is mistaken about Jordan Peterson.

There are certainly different ways that JP is an integral thinker in terms of his combination of many different facets of the human experience into one unified outlook. And this is the exact right direction to go in, in general. This is why JP is so disappointing to me. He takes everything on the right level but leads everyone in the wrong direction on that level. 

So, he is in resistance to the move forward to Green and reacts heavily against it as opposed to integrating it, which is the very opposite of holistic and integral thinking.

It is clear that JP believes that Blue and Orange are the correct and in-alignment way to live and think about things. And he is in deep resistance to Green and has a reactionary way of dealing with that perspective that shows resistance rather than acceptance and holism. And his work tends to bring that out in people, and puts people in opposition to forward movement. This is why I call him the Trojan Horse of human regression.

Like it or not, society is currently moving into Green, and if we are wise we will not resist that movement on the thought that it's somehow happening the wrong way. There is wisdom in how things are occurring. And even if it is polarizing and volatile, it is not happening wrong. Even the militant Green people act as a teaching tool.

That said, even the resistance against Green helps us move more toward Green in the long run. So, even JP with all his resistance against Green is creating a kind of traction to move the vehicle forward. He is showing everyone the shadow of our humanity and how it brandishes itself in the movement he is creating.

It is threatening, and I feel unsafe because of it as a woman. But none-the-less, he is helping the forward momentum, even in his leading people backwards toward what he mistakenly things is bringing things back into alignment.

What makes you feel so threatened about Jordan's teachings specifcally?

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@Scholar @Outer I’ve got work to do for a while. I may have some time later watch the entire video and to put some thought into the content to create a more holistic view.

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1 hour ago, tsuki said:

@Serotoninluv How convenient of you to point out the lack of yellow-level discussion when your and Leo's stance on Peterson has been discredited by an authority. I expect that you will hold this stance with the same passion in other threads about Peterson as well. Like the ones that will inevitably bash him in the future.

Discredited?

Elaborate on how Wilber discredit Leo.


“If you are irritated by every rub, how will you be polished?” - Rumi.

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