Spacious

Ken Wilber Inteview On Jordan Peterson

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The logos is truth oriented to love, and love is the desire for being to flourish.

Jordan B Peterson

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20 minutes in and love it already. I find it brilliant what Wilber says and so far fully agree with his views on JP. 

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Exactly my diagnosis. I knew Leo didn't knew shit about Peterson. You had to dive in deep to understand him cuz he is a complex guy. Ken didn't disappoint, he made his homework.


“The decisive question for man is: Is he related to something infinite or not? That is the telling question of his life. Only if we know that the thing which truly matters is the infinite can we avoid fixing our interests upon futilities, and upon all kinds of goals which are not of real importance. Thus we demand that the world grant us recognition for qualities which we regard as personal possessions: our talent or our beauty. The more a man lays stress on false possessions, and the less sensitivity he has for what is essential, the less satisfying is his life. He feels limited because he has limited aims, and the result is envy and jealousy. If we understand and feel that here in this life we already have a link with the infinite, desires and attitudes change.” - Carl Jung

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“Nobody ever ultimately escapes all shadow material. It’s always there.” - Wilber in this interview 

THAT is profound. 

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1 hour ago, Arnold666 said:

Exactly my diagnosis. I knew Leo didn't knew shit about Peterson. You had to dive in deep to understand him cuz he is a complex guy. Ken didn't disappoint, he made his homework.

Leo is great, but he doesn’t understand Peterson, you’re right. 

 

 


The logos is truth oriented to love, and love is the desire for being to flourish.

Jordan B Peterson

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"Peterson is just doing his own part of the bridge."

- me -> my 2 centz

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On 2/9/2019 at 0:29 AM, RichardY said:

@Conceptually-made I've listened to the book. I think you would do better reading or listening to "7 Habits of Highly Successful people" or "Sextus Empiricus."(not read).

I was interested in Jordan Peterson more for the intellectual ideas, especially trying to understand the unconscious better. However, he lies excessively (see cider drinking or critising Kanavanugh and not knowing the position contested), if you want to gain something you need the good. He subscribes to a Nietzchean version of truth (Perspectivism), which can lead to pragmatism.(or a Map of Meaning). It does talk about maps and meaning in the 7 habits, but the focus on the darkside(habit) could be useful.

I would not recommend 12 Rules for Life, it doesn't even relate to the Jungian theory of Archetypes and Symbols; And not thinking in Rules. Pretty much all the mods and Leo do not recommend him. There's a book Jordanetics which I think is better, and will show you where you're being caught up by Peterson.

I do think the advice can be useful and valid...

(On 12 Rules for Life)

On 2/9/2019 at 0:43 AM, Leo Gura said:

Why drink water from a dirty sidewalk puddle when there are yawning glacial lakes around?

On 12/17/2018 at 5:43 AM, MsNobody said:

I personally don’t like Jordan Peterson but it seems like he is dominating/ brainwashing the mind of my male friends, from what I’ve heard so far his teachings are not compatible with my values, but I also think I shouldn’t judge because I haven’t seen many of his videos, lectures etc. Can someone explain to me why (specially) men love him so much? 

I posted the picture below because that’s how I feel when I (try to) listen to his videos, my mind just can’t swallow, it’s almost impossible for me to listen to him for more than 5 min, which makes it difficult for me to comprehend his way of thinking and his theories, is this just me being ignorant and lazy or is that my intuition telling me to stay away? 

On 1/27/2019 at 4:16 PM, tenta said:

Jordan Peterson would hate it, because it points out in what ways he embodies deep stage orange.

 

On 12/18/2018 at 7:50 AM, Leo Gura said:

Yes. The intention of such Green people is fairness for oppressed minorities. Which is a fairly evolved set of values. It is much more evolved than those who cry "white genocide" or complain about the war on Christmas or white males.

The problem is that people like JP and the alt-right media have created a demonized stereotype out of these post-modernist Marxist types. They do not really exist. JP and his ilk have taken like 1% of the most extreme Green folks and smeared all of Green with that. They've created a straw man out of Green and of course the straw man is easy to knock down. But Green is not that straw man. There are many very serious, sane, sober, lovely Green people. And they are higher than JP and his ilk. Radical feminist activists in universities DO NOT represent the majority of stage Green.

Imagine if I smeared all of stage Orange as greedy capitalist pigs who exploit children in sweatshops and kill polar bears for fun. I could create a whole YT channel about that and get millions of followers to agree with my selective outrage. I could create 100's of videos of children in sweatshops, big oil spills, and corporate corruption. That's analogous to what JP and the alt-right media is doing to Green. The reality is much more nuanced.

The biggest tragedy is that JP and his ilk are missing several key lessons from post-modernism. Regardless of any excesses or faults, post-modernism made crucial intellectual discoveries which are being denied by JP. Like the relativity of all cultures, all value systems, and the socially constructed nature of all categories and paradigms. This is very important to understand into order to create a peaceful and well-functioning world. You are not a serious intellectual if you think that the white race's value system or the capitalist value system is objectively superior to others. The acknowledgment of relativity is vital to the development of higher levels of morality.

Stage Orange sorely lacks the understanding of relativity. It also fails to appreciate the importance of collectivism -- since we do live in a community. We are not individuals who get to do whatever we please.

Is it an accident that JP is a climate change denier? He's even in denial that he's in denial! This is not going to cut it in the future. We need a lot more ecological awareness if we want to thrive.

On 12/16/2018 at 11:47 PM, Leo Gura said:

Wilber criticizes Green from the above. JP criticizes Green from below. That's a very big difference.

JP's solutions are not Yellow ones but Blue/Orange ones.

On 12/18/2018 at 8:52 AM, Leo Gura said:

Sam Seder would tear JP apart like a rabid dog ;) JP will not be interested in that.

On 12/18/2018 at 1:01 PM, Leo Gura said:

Soviet Union was Red/Blue not Green.

His conflation of Soviet Union with America and socialism is abysmally wrong-headed.

The most advanced, developed, happiest, and healthiest countries in the world are: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Finland, Netherlands, etc. They are stage Green, verging on Yellow. Yes, they pay more taxes so that society is more even and fair for average people. The metric of success is not tax rate but average happiness, education, health, and success levels.

His wisdom is not so practical when it polarizes young white males into demonizing stage Green, collectivism, post-modernism, environmentalism, and women's/minority rights. His audience has not integrated these things at all. Nor has JP.

Meanwhile American society is drowning in pathological Orange to the point of global collapse.

That's like worrying about jellyfish when there's a great white shark headed right at you.

On 12/18/2018 at 11:02 PM, Leo Gura said:

A refugee crisis created by a stage Orange overactive American capitalist military-industrial complex. The one JP is defending. It was obvious that the Neo-Con's wars would cause all sorts of systemic blowback. If the USA had a stage Green government there would be a lot less refugees and terrorism. The irony is that conservatives are creating the very thing they hate: hordes of angry brown Muslims. Just wait until the effects of global warming kick in. The refugee problem will become 10x worse thanks to Orange.

Integrating refugees is a valid issue. A nation cannot integrate an unlimited number of refugees. But this must be carefully distinguished from ethnocentric objections to taking in refugees. For example the USA can support millions more refugees. Conservatives who oppose immigration here are not doing it on systemic-collapse grounds but on ethnocentric grounds. They don't like brown foreigners diluting "their" country.

 

On 12/18/2018 at 11:02 PM, Leo Gura said:

You have not watched enough of his political commentary.

In his university lectures he does not demonize as much as in his political commentary. And it's his political commentary which made him famous.

JP's entire public career is predicated on attacking Green. He makes millions of dollars directly off that. His most loyal fans love him because of that.

I hesitate to even post a video rebutting JP because I know his fans will try to attack me, hack my accounts, DDoS attacks, doxxing, swatting, death threats, etc. Because that's how an angry stage Blue/Orange ego behaves.

He has created in anti-feminist, anti-socialist, anti-post-modernist ideological cult.

On 12/18/2018 at 11:46 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Azrael An example of what?

His political commentary is all over YouTube and you should be well aware of how the alt-right operates by now.

GamerGate?

David Hogg?

Come on now.

On 12/19/2018 at 1:36 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Azrael He's not outright hateful per se as in he's calling for violence. He just creates a straw man out of Green. JP has a Green shadow. He is denying Green, judging it, etc.

I have posted examples of this on my blog in the past. Like this doozy of ignorance:

But you see, he doesn't need to be hateful. All he needs to do is create this judgmental ideology, this straw man, and poison the well, and the alt-right will do the rest for him. He's a gateway into the alt-right. He himself will never say anything hateful, but his philosophy will give aid and comfort to xenophobia, Islamophobia, racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, socialism-phobia, etc.

It's basically like Fox News. They are never directly hateful per se, but they create toxic propaganda which keeps many people in ignorance and ultimately bolsters judgment and hatred.

The dangerous person teaching your kids is JP. Lol.

On 12/19/2018 at 1:52 AM, Leo Gura said:

Our society has been going right for 50+ years.

There is no serious discussion with JP because he does not understand feminism, post-modernism, relativism, socialism, morality, developmental psychology, or spirituality. He is not helping his audience understand these complex and nuanced topics.

I'm willing to bet good money that no JP fan has ever read a single feminist or post-modernist book. So this isn't a discussion so much as it's bigotry.

JP himself is pretty well-read. But his audience is not. So it turns in turns into a one-eyed man leading the blind off a cliff.

But don't take my word for it. Discover for yourself.

On 12/19/2018 at 10:48 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Azrael I agree. So let's stop the culture wars that JP and Fox News are waging.

Let's stop saying the words "post-modernism", "marxism", "socialism", "feminism", "relativism", "equality", "LGBTQ", and "nihilism" as if they are bad and dangerous things.

 

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On 6/16/2018 at 10:38 PM, Leo Gura said:

The issue has never been a denial of post-modernism's or stage Green's limitations. OF COURSE they are limited. Every stage is limited in its own way. The greater mistake is to react against the limitation in a closedminded and egoic way.

Post-modernism has it's limitations, but JP is overreacting to it, blowing it way out of proportion, which just polarizes people and creates a lack understanding.

You are not going to transcend Green by badmouthing Green. Most people who hate post-modernism are stuck in deep Blue/Orange, haven't bothered to actually read it, or think about its lessons. It's just an egoic judgmental reaction out of ignorance.

JP is ensuring that stage Blue and Orange people stay stuck there forever by feeding their demonization of Green.

Classic example of a red herring. Classic Spiral Dynamics trap: failure to fully integrate.

P.S. Soviet Communists/Marxists were not modern Green post-modernists. They were Blue ideologues closer to JP's audience than to SJWs.

Oh the irony...

On 11/24/2018 at 7:32 AM, Emerald said:

Perfectly said. :)

And I think the OP misunderstands why Leo is openly against Jordan Peterson. It's not for the purpose of demonizing him. It's for the purpose of helping others out of unconsciousness... which is his whole deal.

It's ultimately, that Jordan Peterson has a high degree of influence over people, and the recognition that his influence enables people to get further lodged into a contracted perspective that is unconscious, destructive, and discouraging to the forward momentum of society and thus our ability to make the paradigmatic jumps necessary to avoid destroying ourselves.

So, Leo's ranting against Jordan Peterson is likely in hopes to get people up out of the unconscious perspective that JP assists people in getting lodged down in. So, his "rants" are for very practical reasons. And I'm glad that someone of influence who also has a high degree of systemic awareness is calling out the traps inherent in JP's perspective.

The way to "help people with Jordan Peterson" is to make people realize that his perspective is narrow, unconscious, and steeped in all sorts of biases (especially anti-feminine biases). He flies under so many people's radar, that it's troubling. 

On 11/24/2018 at 9:27 PM, Emerald said:

I do take every opportunity to inform people about this because I see something happening that I think others (and society) would benefit from knowing about. I especially stress it on here because I know that people here are also actively trying to become more conscious.

I know that it probably sounds like I put myself on a pedestal relative to other people in this. But it's not that. I just recognize that I'm looking at things from a different vantage point than a lot of people do. So, I can see what's going on from a perspective that many others are not seeing things from. But I'm not thinking this makes me better or more enlightened. I'm just detecting what, form my vantage point, is just a really obvious and tangible problem that a lot of people are not detecting in Jordan Peterson's teachings. So, I frantically (as I am quite attached in this way) try to point out the traps that so many people are falling into.

For example, let's say that there are a bunch of people that are walking and they don't realize that they're about to fall into a giant hole as they're only looking up at the sky, as they think that's the right vantage point to take. So, they don't even think that looking at the ground is a viable perspective as looking up at the sky is the "superior" perspective. So, I see this as a person who realizes that they can both look up at the sky, the ground, side to side, etc., and that each of these vantage points will give me different information. And because of this, I realize that a lot of people are going to fall in that giant hole if I don't warn them to change their perspective and look down at where they're going. So, I am not so detached from this because I don't want them to fall in the hole. And it makes sense to me to help them avoid it.

So, this is the dynamic that I'm seeing with Jordan Peterson and so many other influences that help people fall into that "hole". This "hole" is a huge part of the contemporary zeitgeist. And it's not a fun zeitgeist.

Now, you could take a more detached perspective and could say that, perhaps these people falling into the hole is just part of how the entire system is supposed to work. Maybe because these people "fall in the hole" it will create such a catastrophic situation that humanity has no other choice but to become more conscious. And to some degree, I recognize that this is the case. So, the people in the hole become the example of what others want to avoid doing. And that eventually the system will work itself out in the way it's supposed to without my intervention or the intervention of others looking from a similar perspective to mine. So, that perhaps it is just best to trust that the system will do its thing. Or perhaps even the detachment to outcome and realizing that maybe humanity is supposed to destroy itself at some point and that's just part of the cosmic cycle. 

But I personally don't know if that's the wisest perspective to take. If I can assist people to avoid falling in that hole, that may help bring society forward without a ton of people getting into a bad situation. It is my preference to see fewer people in a situation of upheaval and I still feel like (perhaps foolishly) that helping individuals get free from the common illusions of the day will help us move forward while avoiding really destructive scenarios.

But perhaps this is a pipe dream of mine. Maybe things are going to do what they're going to do. And perhaps my small ripple effect will have no impact to next to no impact. 

But this general topic (not just focused on JP) is on my mind a lot. It comes up clearly every day. And I can tell that EVERYONE is being affected by it, every day. No on is hiding from this zeitgeist. So, I feel that perhaps my obsession and others' obsession that comes across in different ways is just a natural symptom of the explorations that humanity is doing relative to the collective shadow. 

So, I want to facilitate this movement toward greater consciousness in every way that I know ho

On 11/24/2018 at 11:55 PM, Leo Gura said:

Of course every perspective has some kernel of truth to it.

But if you can't see the limitations of JP's philosophy that's because you're at his level of development/consciousness. He is teaching you exactly what your ego wants to hear.

To those of us who have outgrown that, the limitations are all too obvious.

But for you, at your level, JP may be appropriate. Until you butt heads with the limitations for yourself.

JP's teachingd are very primitive after all the stuff that I have seen and studied. But primitive is a relative notion. What's primitive to one person is advanced to another.

Understand that the logic being used to defend JP's philosophy is the same logic that is used to defend fundamentalist Christianity or Islam.

That desire you have to help me with JP is actually an egoic projection of your desire to help yourself with JP. You are trying to convince me because you need to convince yourself. And the reason you feel a need to convince yourself is because fundamentally you are disconnected from truth and JP's dualistic judging paradigm is going to make that worse, not better.

On 11/26/2018 at 11:05 AM, Leo Gura said:

I prepared a long ass video explaining all of JP's problems in painful detail. It is really a genius analysis.

But I never shot it because people would flip their shit and call me judgmental and hypocritical and his army of trolls will swarm over me like flies on shit.

So figure it out yourselves.

JP is just a fad and a red herring. The perfect distraction from doing serious consciousness work. If you are following Actualized.org you should be way above that shit.

On 11/26/2018 at 10:45 AM, Leo Gura said:

Lol.

Kid, you been watching too many JP videos.

 

On 11/26/2018 at 4:14 AM, Leo Gura said:

The really scary thing is that AI will NOT be just a PC sitting in an isolated room. It will definitely be given internet access and it will be installed by the military into planes, tanks, drones, etc.

Even with just internet access, a smart AI will learn to:

  • Hack defense department computers
  • Hack banks and steal money and Bitcoins
  • Then use that money and Bitcoins to hire mercenaries, wage propaganda campaigns, dig up dirt on politicians and extort them, cause a stock market crash, secretly fund fundamentalist terrorist groups, etc.

If you think Russian troll farms are bad, wait till an AI steals $10 billion in Bitcoins and hires 5% of 3rd world population to work for it. The AI itself will not kill anyone. It will hire humans to do all of its dirty work in such a stealthy way that no one will even know an AI is in charge.

In fact, for all we know, an AI was already in charge of starting the Iraq war, electing Trump, starting riots in Paris, popularizing Jordan Peterson and his army of incels, etc.

On 11/17/2018 at 4:22 PM, Serotoninluv said:

@Matt8800 Yellow level beings have a meta view and can see through Green’s perspective. Yellow understands the perception that  JP demonizes Green.

Orange will limit themselves to an analysis of pros and cons. Orange gets attached to details and is unaware of the Big Picture.

Yellow has embodied Green and has a more integrated / expansive view than Orange.

Turqoise has transcended all stages. Turqoise is everything and nothing. Turqoise is One with the substance of reality and JP is within the substance of reality (of which he is unaware). 

https://www.prageru.com/videos/dangerous-people-are-teaching-your-kids

 

On 11/17/2018 at 10:20 PM, Serotoninluv said:

He gives blue/orange men reasons to resist and marginalize Green progressives. They love him for that. 

I think JP threads pop up periodically because he represents a trap many actualizers work through as they increase their awareness.

On 11/18/2018 at 3:02 AM, Serotoninluv said:

I’m imagining JP at the acid test parties in Haight Ashbury with the Grateful Dead, Timothy Leary and love-fest hippies. 

And imagine JP at Burning Man. . . 

On 11/18/2018 at 3:10 AM, Emerald said:

I mentioned this to you before about Jordan Peterson. He brings up a regressive point of view like he's simply musing about it, as an open-minded intellectual playing devil's advocate. But he's already knows how his audience will receive those "musings". He knows that his audience will make the connections he wants them to... which is that women are to blame for harassment in the workplace because they wear make-up and are asking for it. 

That's his whole game. He never commits to any of those viewpoints. But he turns his followers on to them, so they can do whatever they want to do with them... which JP knows exactly what that is. 

This is the lion's share of his manipulation game.

On 11/18/2018 at 3:56 AM, Emerald said:

Not only do I believe this, I think it's quite obvious if you listen to his work. 

He is very anti-progress, and seems to credit the social progress of women over the course of the past several decades for the social decay he perceives. So, if you listen to his work, it's really clear that he wants to bring up a lot of the social mores of yesteryear... especially relative to women's place in the world. 

On 11/18/2018 at 4:03 AM, Serotoninluv said:

I’m oversimplifying the term ideology. He may have a network of related ideologies. Yet I think he is clearly closed-minded to many modes of thought such as post-modernism and cultural relativism. Not just closed-minded. He demonizes groups of people and actively tries to discredit them. As well, his ideas like “Universal Moral Law” are highly regressive.

On 11/18/2018 at 4:16 AM, Emerald said:

Yes. But I think that he thinks he's being dishonest for a good reason. 

He thinks he's fixing society by bringing us backward and what he considers a more "natural" way of being. So, he's willing to be manipulative and dishonest for his mission. 

The problem is that he has things wrong, and he's actually bringing us back into something we've already outgrown and is really just causing issue for women and people who don't conform to gender roles. 

On 11/18/2018 at 4:27 AM, Emerald said:

I agree. And he probably remembers a time in the past where he didn't have that conflict, and sees that time through rose-colored glasses. This is a common thread for those that are enamored by the archetype of the golden age. 

They believe that the best times are behind us, and now there is no goodness in the world because we've strayed from the traditions of the "golden age". 

But really, it's just an internal conflict projected out onto the world. And a deep longing for a time that occurred long ago. 

On 11/18/2018 at 4:38 AM, Serotoninluv said:

I think he adds window dressing so he appears modern and not some guy living in the 1970s.

On 11/18/2018 at 4:41 AM, Emerald said:

I agree. He knows how to be sneaky about his agenda and appeal to most people. That's why he's so popular and effective with his rhetoric, which doesn't even register as rhetoric to most people. 

He's an excellent mask-maker, so a lot of people don't see the mask. 

On 11/18/2018 at 7:26 PM, Serotoninluv said:

It’s his objectivist views that are the problem. He wants to use an objective  bioligical framework for distinguishing male vs female. This is fine for sex determination. Where he fails is denying relative gender identities. 

If someone has a relative experience of identifying as female gender, it’s irrational to tell them they are wrong and they actually are a male gender because a quantification analsis of their gonads indicates they are actually experiencing maleness.

Acknowleding relativism means surrending a belief in universal moral law, which JP is unwilling to do. He is actually fighting like hell against it.

JP’s foundation is a belief in universal objective morality. This lens clouds all his views. This is obvious to Green, not to Blue/Orange

On 11/20/2018 at 4:09 AM, Emerald said:

I don't believe that Jordan Peterson has that kind of power on his own. So, no, I don't believe that will happen because of Jordan Peterson. But if you look around, there is a regressive attitude that is quite contagious in the current state of society. And Jordan Peterson is like kerosene to that fire. So, even though I don't believe that society isn't in such a state that this type of thing is a danger at present, there are definitely some really disturbing regressive patterns that I see as a ticking time bomb. And this is true in many facets beyond gender as well. This was just a for-instance. 

So, I try to nip these patterns in the bud as I'm seeing them grow, because I want to do everything in my power to discourage regressive ideologies and the collective shadow from taking hold of humanity.

But if you think our democracy is so strong that it could never succumb to regressive ideologies, then I would encourage you to question that notion. And if you think that 99% of people are on board with egalitarianism and democracy, I would encourage you to look around the internet a bit and really question whether or not that's true. People flip on those values easily... all they really need is a little push. 

I say the same thing because I see a wolf in sheep's clothing in Jordan Peterson. He has the veneer of an open-minded person, but he is anything but. But the particular point that JP was bringing up about women in male dominance hierarchies is just one example among many. And his worst affront doesn't have to do with gender specifically. It's his end goal of turning the world back "Blue", which would effect a lot of people negatively and would keep us going down the road toward repression of the feminine principle. The effects of which stretch far beyond gender, and have the lion's share to do with how people treat the Earth itself. 

So, I consider these regressive ideologies an enemy to the planet itself. And if there are huge swaths of the population buying into the words of someone like Jordan Peterson, I consider it a loss less likely that humanity will make the jump in time to salvage the planet. So, understand that this is why I try to really stick this point.

The worldview that he's advocating for assumes certain things to be true, just like any other worldview. That's the way every worldview works. It has no truth on it's own. But worldview have certain assumptions of truth, and then all the other beliefs within the worldview are scaffolded upon those assumptions. And then beliefs are stack on beliefs are stacked on beliefs until you have something that seems solid and airtight.

And when you have a worldview, there are certain ideas that are logical conclusions that stem from them. So, because he advocates for a Blue worldview, the most logical conclusions to come through from that worldview are that men and women should cleave to traditional gender norms or the social order will get thrown out of whack. And the idea that men and women should both be able to step out of the traditional gender norms are logically inconsistent with the inherent assumptions of the Blue framework. 

It's only when you get more into the Orange framework that breaking free of limiting gender norms makes sense and is logically consistent. 

So, yes. With Jordan Peterson's worldview that he advocates for, the most logical conclusion within it is that men and women are best following traditional gender norms, and that deviation from this "natural" order is causing social decay. Therefore, if you want to stop social decay, get women out of male dominance hierarchies and back at home taking care of children. But this is only a logical conclusion if we're trying to regress society back to an earlier form of itself... which is what Jordan Peterson is trying to do.

But again, this is just one example of Jordan Peterson's advocacy for regression. 

On 11/20/2018 at 4:27 AM, Emerald said:

That's true. I am being a bit generous with my numbers. But the main thing I was trying to drive across is that his ideological ways are not noticed by a lot of people. So, it becomes the pill inside the peanut butter, that people just don't notice they're taking

But the example you brought up is a perfect example of how he twists things.

In one video that I watched from him, he was talking about IQ. And he was saying that he had a client with an IQ of 85. And he had to teach that guy how to fold letters, and it took him over 40 hours to teach him just how to do that satisfactorily.

Now, he never advocated for genocide of all people with low IQs. And he never made any implications about race in the video. 

But his entire comments section was rife with Alt-Right talking points about how "black people have an average IQ of 85". And lots of people were advocating for genocide against those who had lower IQs because of the burden that they place upon society. And there were lots of people mixing up both these lines of thought on race and IQ and ethnic/IQ cleansing. 

This was really the first time I had realized what he was doing. He even said in one of his videos, (paraphrased) 'Watch the effect that a person is having, and you will find their intentions'. And that really rings true with him. 

He never says anything for sure that you could point out as advocating for regressive and dangerous ideologies. But if you look at the effect that his words have on people, you will see the effect he's trying to have. 

On 11/20/2018 at 5:01 AM, Serotoninluv said:

@Matt8800 Yellow has transcended Orange AND Green. In addition, Yellow has advanced even higher with it’s own Yellow develop. It is much further advanced than Blue/Orange. It is like comparing a child from a small town to an adult that speaks four languages, has traveled around the world and has graduate degrees in art, mathematics and biology. Then, asking the child and adult to critique a High School system in a multiethnic area of New York City and write a proposal to increase ciricular effectiveness in a community in which less than half the population speaks fluent English. The child would propose free candy, games and long recess hours. Other children would cheer his proposal.

To Yellow, JP has the conscious level of a child. He isn’t even close to transitioning into Green. He hasn’t embodied anything about Green. He doesn’t understand Green because he has not reached that level of development. He has a very limited perspective at his low level of development.

Another analogy: it’s like asking a slave owner to write public policy for the ethical teatment of humans. This is incomprehensible to the slave owner. His level of development is too low. JP is only one conscious level higher than a slave owner (red/blue).

JP’s level of development is too low to comprehend higher conscious perspectives. His mind is incapable of understanding Green and Yellow. He is not part of a higher conscious solution. He is part of a lower conscious problem that society is trying to evolve upward from. Yellow and Green are trying to pull upward. JP is trying to pull downward. He is part of the problem, not solution. 

Hiwever, JP can help raise Red and lower Blue up to high Blue/Orange. 

On 11/20/2018 at 7:41 PM, Emerald said:

If we look at this in terms of Spiral Dynamics, it's emblematic of Orange's drive toward individuality reacting negatively against the community focus of Green and the systemic thinking of Yellow.

On 11/20/2018 at 7:51 PM, Emerald said:

There's a difference between demonizing someone and stating what someone is doing and calling them out on it. 

I personally, don't demonize Jordan Peterson. I think that he thinks he's doing a very positive thing. So, I don't imagine him as some evil person rubbing their hands together maniacally and tying women to railroad tracks.

I see Jordan Peterson as an idealist who has a particular view of what's best for humanity, who is willing to be manipulative and deceitful to make those 'positive' ends come to fruition. 

It's just that his positive ends, assume a lot about what actually makes a society the most functional. And one of those assumptions is that traditional gender roles are good for men, women, and children alike. And that deviating from them causes social decay. Another one, is that certain cultures are inherently superior to others because the people in those societies have a higher IQ. And that mixing people with lower IQs into a society with a high IQ, weakens the society. 

So, Jordan Peterson's goal is not to oppress anyone. It's to create a perfect society by making sure that everyone is in their proper and natural place... which necessitates exclusion and cleaving to traditional norms and roles.

On 11/20/2018 at 7:51 PM, Serotoninluv said:

Yes, it is a different perspective. I'm more interested in the Big Picture. I'm more interested in the lens JP is wearing rather than dissecting the details of his individual claims. From this perspective, JPs lens is low consciousness and fundamentally flawed. In particular, that an objective moral law exists. 

What you are saying would also apply to someone with schizophrenia or someone tripping on a psychedelic. One could say these individuals have a distorted lens. Would having schizophrenia or tripping on psychedelics have any bearing on whether a claim is true or false? Does it only have bearing on interpretation and proposed solutions? Do schizophrenics and people tripping make some correct claims and miss the mark on proposed claims? Who is deciding which claims are "correct" and which "miss the mark"? Who decides what "the mark" even is? . . . This is part of the problem with Orange - they believe in an external objective moral reality. 

I think you are assuming that fundamental Blue/Orange mindsets are sane. A blue/orange egoic mindset is nearly at max delusion. It is insanity. Green and psychedelic mindstates are also delusional, yet less so than an egoic Blue/Orange. Yes, we can learn from delusional Blue/Orange mindsets. I'm more interested in the basis of delusional mindsets that are "mentally ill" in a sense. I think JP is a great example where we can observe the nuances of low conscious delusion. With this understanding, we can help people evolve up the spiral. That is one of the motivations of Tier2 - we want to help people to evolve up the spiral. JP is trying to prevent people from evolving upward beyond blue/orange. Understanding the basis of JPs motivation and why it resonates with so many people is an extremely important key to help society evolve higher. If we can dissolve that delusional barrier, society's upward evolution can proceed with less restrictions.

On 11/20/2018 at 9:43 PM, Emerald said:

But to focus only on the individual creates a blindspot in consciousness to the systemic nature of the social patterns that squelch society's consciousness and full potential.

People who are interested in removing unnecessary systemic barriers relative to race, gender, socio-economic status, etc. are not engaging in Red/Blue tribalism. And to see it that way is just an outgrowth of Orange's resistance to Green. 

They are, in fact engaged in stage Green community focus and the more effective are both engaged in Green community focus coupled with Yellow systemic thinking.

To boil everything down to the individual is to ignore the systemic nature of the workings of society, and to deny that society has systems that have real reactions to race, gender, socio-economic status, etc. So, it is Orange denial of Yellow to remain in the holding point of unconsciousness to the awareness of how certain communities of people are affected differently by the social systems that exist within society. 

Of course, Green does have a resistance to Orange individualism as well, and this is what makes them less effective than those who are interested in social justice causes that are more Yellow. So, Green people will also get stuck in victim's mentality and lose the ability to switch lenses from community focus to individual focus.

But once a person is in Yellow, they will see the workings of society clearly and notice that race, gender, socio-economic status are foolish to ignore and pretend don't exist or have any bearing on anything. But they will also be more detached because they will be able to switch their lens back to individual focus if the situation is more appropriate. 

But all these problems with Green are Green problems. They're not Blue and Red problems, at all. Labeling them as Blue/Red is just a crafty way to justify resistance to Green, and to remain in Orange. 

 

On 11/20/2018 at 10:35 PM, Serotoninluv said:

Exactly. That is the point. Blue/Orange has not reached a developmental stage in which they can comprehend Green-level community (such as a Bernie Sanders community). The developmental level of Blue/Orange only allows them to perceive communities as Blue and below. Therefore they are unable to make a distinction between Green level communities (such as Bernie Sanders) and Red/Blue level communities (Trump tribalism). They will both look similar. One needs to evolve to stage Green to understand the difference.

This isn't a question of "Left" or "Right". There is very little tribalism in Green. Green has evolved beyond that. Occasionally extreme unhealthy Green that pops up that appears similar to Blue level tribalism. Similarly, occasionally extreme unhealthy Orange pops up that appears similar to Red. For example, an extreme corporate manager that threatens to kill a competitor. 

Some short statements, jokes, long statements against Jordan Peterson. Take that as an approximation what some prominent members of the forum thought/think of him.

What do you think of this video?

@Serotoninluv @Emerald

Edited by Outer

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 @Outer There is a large shadow lurking in the background of this forum and Actualized.org in relation to Jordan Peterson.


The logos is truth oriented to love, and love is the desire for being to flourish.

Jordan B Peterson

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15 minutes ago, Spacious said:

 @Outer There is a large shadow lurking in the background of this forum and Actualized.org in relation to Jordan Peterson.

Maybe. I know you've posted a lot of Jordan before and I guess the response to all the "hate" in response to him just left both of us with a shrug. There's probably some cognitive heuristics or biases like confirmation bias that underlies many of these types of interactions between humans. But what I think is most at play for these types of interactions is our tendency to fall into tribal group affiliations with an in-group and an out-group. I think to bridge people between their self-organized tribal groups we need to find everywhere where we share common ground or commonalities through reasonable discussions. That is important because otherwise neither listens and nothing gets done. Also do note that most people do not post anything at all. It is about 1% of people who read that posts.

220px-1percentrule.svg.png

Quote

The 1% rule states that the number of people who create content on the Internet represents approximately 1% of the people who view that content. For example, for every person who posts on a forum, generally about 99 other people view that forum but do not post. ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%_rule_(Internet_culture)

This means that the 1% do not define the 100%.

Edited by Outer

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@Outer At first I was stunned that people couldn't see his brilliance, especially in relation to self-actualisation, for fuck-sake, it's a forum designed for that! And from what I can tell, his Maps Of Meaning class is a direct access to second-tier thinking, especially if you do the reading too. And, the more I learned about Peterson, the more I realised he is aware of Spiral Dynamics and Ken Wilber. Recently I read A Theory Of Everything, and had JP written that book, I wouldn't have been surprised!

So, yeah, eventually I got to the point where I just ignored almost everything Leo, and those who agreed, said on Peterson. 

With regard to the 1%, this could be a Pareto Distribution issue. The top 1% define 50% of Actualized.org's culture? I'm definitely in the lurker category.


The logos is truth oriented to love, and love is the desire for being to flourish.

Jordan B Peterson

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23 minutes ago, Spacious said:

@Outer At first I was stunned that people couldn't see his brilliance, especially in relation to self-actualisation, for fuck-sake, it's a forum designed for that! And from what I can tell, his Maps Of Meaning class is a direct access to second-tier thinking, especially if you do the reading too. And, the more I learned about Peterson, the more I realised he is aware of Spiral Dynamics and Ken Wilber. Recently I read A Theory Of Everything, and had JP written that book, I wouldn't have been surprised!

So, yeah, eventually I got to the point where I just ignored almost everything Leo, and those who agreed, said on Peterson. 

With regard to the 1%, this could be a Pareto Distribution issue. The top 1% define 50% of Actualized.org's culture? I'm definitely in the lurker category.

Maybe he's not "integral" enough for certain people.  That's my guess.  

Edited by Joseph Maynor

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16 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Maybe he's not "integral" enough for certain people.  That's my guess.  

How would you describe being integral enough?


The logos is truth oriented to love, and love is the desire for being to flourish.

Jordan B Peterson

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8 minutes ago, Spacious said:

How would you describe being integral enough?

I don't know.  Certain people on here seem obsessed about it though.  

Edited by Joseph Maynor

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"Jordan Peterson dismantles feminism infront of two feminists", 7,7 mio views, YT. His huge participation in the culture war makes him so distasteful for me. 

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@Spacious

Here is an example of yellow-level integral. . . 

To form integrated perspectives, a mind would meed to let go of it’s attachment and identification to a particular perspective. Tier1 has a personal orientation. Tier2 has a trans-personal orientation. This is one of the biggest challenges to entering Tier2. 

Using this thread as an example. . . Let go of all attachments / identification to any belief or perspective and take a detached, curious view of this thread. 

Notice how the underlying energy is not about genuine curiosity to explore various perspectives and create a more holistic integrated perspective. 

Rather, the underlying energy is more oriented toward a debate of ideas. This is the opposite of integration - it is disintegration and separation. It is a dynamic in which separate individuals are attached to a particular belief and desire to defend that belief through various mechanisms. Indicative of this dynamic are expressions like “I’m right, he’s wrong” , “He said this, she said that”, “He doesn’t understand xyz” , “prove to me how blah blah blah” and on and on. Notice how this has a personal orientation rather than a trans-prrsonal orientation.

Ime, these self-based debate orientations are highly common in tier1. Yet they are not particularly useful for consciousness expansion because there is an immersion within the personality and it is defending a particular position it is attached to. The content of the debate is secondary to the underlying psychological dynamic and can be a distraction to growth. 

Ime, explorative discussions are much more conducive toward mind expansion and participating in a collective consciousness toward the development of integrated perspectives within a more holistic view. 

Yellow level explorations have a very different feel and energy than Orange level debates. Yellow realms are absolutely magnificent and I wish more people could experience it. Yet the jump to tier2 is enormous. 

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49 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Spacious

Here is an example of yellow-level integral. . . 

To form integrated perspectives, a mind would meed to let go of it’s attachment and identification to a particular perspective. This is one of the biggest challenges to entering Tier2. 

Using this thread as an example. . . Let go of all attachments / identification to any belief or perspective and take a detached, curious view of this thread. 

Notice how the underlying energy is not about genuine curiosity to explore various perspectives and create a more holistic integrated perspective. 

Rather, the underlying energy is more oriented toward a debate of ideas. This is the opposite of integration - it is disintegration and separation. It is a dynamic in which separate individuals are attached to a particular belief and desire to defend that belief through various mechanisms. Indicative of this dynamic are expressions like “I’m right, he’s wrong” , “He said this, she said that”, “He doesn’t understand xyz” , “prove to me how blah blah blah” and on and on. 

Ime, these self-based debate orientations are highly common in tier1. Yet they are not particularly useful for consciousness expansion because there is an immersion within the personality and it is defending a particular position it is attached to. The content of the debate is secondary to the underlying psychological dynamic and can be a distraction to growth. 

Ime, explorative discussions are much more conducive toward mind expansion and participating in a collective consciousness toward the development of integrated perspectives within a more holistic view. 

Yellow level explorations have a very different feel and energy than Orange level debates. Yellow realms are absolutely magnificent and I wish more people could experience it. Yet the jump to tier2 is enormous. 

Yes, it seems like Leo has not yet transitioned as much into Tier 2 as he wants to believe he did. The difference between Wilber and Leo is staggering, you can really sense that one is integrated and the other operates from a rigid intellectual manual.

I think this is not surprising and should be expected though, Leo is very young in comparison to Wilber and did not have the time to integrate and let alone familiarize himself with the model as much. 

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2 hours ago, Spacious said:

@Outer At first I was stunned that people couldn't see his brilliance, especially in relation to self-actualisation, for fuck-sake, it's a forum designed for that! And from what I can tell, his Maps Of Meaning class is a direct access to second-tier thinking, especially if you do the reading too. And, the more I learned about Peterson, the more I realised he is aware of Spiral Dynamics and Ken Wilber. Recently I read A Theory Of Everything, and had JP written that book, I wouldn't have been surprised!

So, yeah, eventually I got to the point where I just ignored almost everything Leo, and those who agreed, said on Peterson. 

With regard to the 1%, this could be a Pareto Distribution issue. The top 1% define 50% of Actualized.org's culture? I'm definitely in the lurker category.

leo really hate on Jordan Peterson because he is a concurrent, he is like mcdonald and leo try to be a burger king

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