Self Actualization Should Come Before Self Transcendence

[bmcnicho]

This idea might be a bit controversial, but I don’t think people should concern themselves with enlightenment until they’ve first developed themselves to the highest levels.

In mythological stories, the enlightened mystic is always an old man or woman, and I think there’s a very good reason for this.  When you’re young, you should be boldly embarking on your hero’s journey.  I think it’s silly to talk about the self being an illusion before you’ve first developed yourself and accomplished something great in the world 

I think when undeveloped people pursue non-duality, it can easily lead to zen devilry, because they haven’t first integrated their shadow elements.  Also, it may come less from genuine spiritual interest and manifest more as a depressive denial of life

Carl Jung described two traps of pursuing spirituality recklessly.  The first is an ego inflation where one literally identifies oneself as some kind of transcendent being. The second trap, which he viewed as more difficult, is being flooded with so many images from the unconscious that you lose yourself in them and become possessed by them.

The solution he proposed was the Individuation Process, essentially his model of self actualization.  This is a process of confronting your shadow and integrating your opposite tendencies until only at the end do you achieve self transcendence

I think meditation and yoga techniques could still be useful for general psychological health, but my impression is that most people on this forum should be focused on self actualization

@Leo Gura Do you think there’s some validity to this? Or do you think this is mostly my ego trying to avoid doing consciousness work?

[NoSelfSelf]

Being awake will make self actualization even better(more smoother) i persoanlly put enlightement first because with all this traumas in body ill need 2 lifetimes to make something in the world so its a personal choice...

[Forestluv]

@bmcnicho

If a self isn't developed, how can there be self transcendence? There would be nothing to transcend. 

Development doesn't end with an awakening. The person doesn't suddenly disappear. Personality traits are deeply conditioned into the mind-body. It's the relationship with the personality that shifts. Even people like Adyashanti and Rupert Spira still have mind-body personality patterns - they aren't going to wake up tomorrow as a Bollywood dancer. . . 

 

[Truth Addict]

As learned from Spiral Dynamics: Enlightenmet can happen at any stage, but it is more likely to happen in the higher stages. Jesus was young when he transcended.

Also, "should" implies free will, which does not exist. So..

[Salvijus]

33 minutes ago, bmcnicho said:

I don’t think people should concern themselves with enlightenment until they’ve first developed themselves to the highest levels.

Highest level of development is enlightenment. Enlightenment is the peak of consciousness evolution. 

That's what sadhguru says. Forget about enlightenment just improve improve yourself and grow relentlessly. Things will happen.

Enlightenment is natural to humans. It's like for mango trees it's natural to bear mango fruits. The same way in our highesjt point of evolution or highest point of development is the fruit of enlightenment.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Salvijus

[tedens]

There is some kind of hazard by doing the work. Meditation is for every one but not at any time. So there is some requirement for maturity to this.

 

[bmcnicho]

@Truth Addict Free will doesn’t exist in an absolute sense, but in a relative sense it’s an important pragmatic reality.  People have conflicting impulses and tendencies which can be thought of as semiautonomous sub-personalities.  The ego is the psychological structure that selects which inner voice to listen to and carry out into action.

While this description isn’t literally true, until someone has become enlightened, this is how they must act in a practical sense 

[Shin]

If you're really "spiritual", Self-actualization and Transcendence goes together, one will boost the other greatly and vice versa.

We need to be very careful not to use one to avoid the other though (spiritual bypassing or good old excuses to stay blind).

That being said, I don't think you can choose to pursue enlightenment, you're either in or not, and once you started to see the mind flaws, you can't really go back, there is a natural impulse to ascend.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Shin

[Nahm]

@bmcnicho Do you mean silly like someone crusading against self improvement on a self improvement forum kind of silly?   The complete spiritual bypassing of life level of silly? 

[Maya_0]

One wouldn't even know how to self-actualize or why their self-actualizing if their not intent on Enlightenment. 

[bmcnicho]

@Nahm Yeah basically, like someone who hasn’t even started their hero’s journey talking about how great the holy grial is

[Truth Addict]

@bmcnicho

One can't choose to die.
It's not like choosing the most beneficial career for you, because your entire life is on the line here.
For the ego, it's easy to analyse and make predictions for what's most beneficial. But here, it's very different.
Self-actualization and self-transcendence are polar opposites, one constructs the ego and the other distructs it. And the ego will always choose self-actualization.
It's usually the emotional urge to die that makes one go transcending.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Consilience]

2 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@bmcnicho

One can't choose to die.
It's not like choosing the most beneficial career for you, because your entire life is on the line here.
For the ego, it's easy to analyse and make predictions for what's most beneficial. But here, it's very different.
Self-actualization and self-transcendence are polar opposites, one constructs the ego and the other distructs it. And the ego will always choose self-actualization.
It's usually the emotional urge to die that makes one go transcending.

And yet in the end, the polar opposites collapse into one. To self actualize is to transcend your egoic, selfish, low consciousness behaviors. To self transcend is to self actualize into who you always were. 

 

[Truth Addict]

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

And yet in the end, the polar opposites collapse into one. To self actualize is to transcend your egoic, selfish, low consciousness behaviors. To self transcend is to self actualize into who you always were. 

 

Of course, eventually. And that's the beauty of it.

What I meant was that no one has a choice where to go in the first place. It goes in opposite directions, only to end up at the same point.

[Joseph Maynor]

There is something to be said or someone coming into Enlightenment Work with a big, damaged Ego looking for relief.  

[NoSelfSelf]

@Joseph Maynor thats what enlightement is for

[Nahm]

@bmcnicho Why would one do that do you suppose?

[thesmileyone]

18 hours ago, bmcnicho said:

This idea might be a bit controversial, but I don’t think people should concern themselves with enlightenment until they’ve first developed themselves to the highest levels.

In mythological stories, the enlightened mystic is always an old man or woman, and I think there’s a very good reason for this.  When you’re young, you should be boldly embarking on your hero’s journey.  I think it’s silly to talk about the self being an illusion before you’ve first developed yourself and accomplished something great in the world 

I think when undeveloped people pursue non-duality, it can easily lead to zen devilry, because they haven’t first integrated their shadow elements.  Also, it may come less from genuine spiritual interest and manifest more as a depressive denial of life

Carl Jung described two traps of pursuing spirituality recklessly.  The first is an ego inflation where one literally identifies oneself as some kind of transcendent being. The second trap, which he viewed as more difficult, is being flooded with so many images from the unconscious that you lose yourself in them and become possessed by them.

The solution he proposed was the Individuation Process, essentially his model of self actualization.  This is a process of confronting your shadow and integrating your opposite tendencies until only at the end do you achieve self transcendence

I think meditation and yoga techniques could still be useful for general psychological health, but my impression is that most people on this forum should be focused on self actualization

@Leo Gura Do you think there’s some validity to this? Or do you think this is mostly my ego trying to avoid doing consciousness work?

How do you know what "the highest levels" are without transcending the ones previous to them?

What even are the levels?

You know that being rich, having a healthy body, having a great social circle...all these matter none. There is no difference between...Tony Robbins and a homeless person with a heroin addiction. Everyone is enlightened. Everything is enlightened. Every thing is the same thing.

Edited February 2, 2019 by thesmileyone

[Consilience]

21 minutes ago, thesmileyone said:

How do you know what "the highest levels" are without transcending the ones previous to them?

What even are the levels?

You know that being rich, having a healthy body, having a great social circle...all these matter none. There is no difference between...Tony Robbins and a homeless person with a heroin addiction. Everyone is enlightened. Everything is enlightened. Every thing is the same thing.

That’s 1 perspective yes. And equally, Tony Robins and a homeless heroin addict are infinitely distinct, just like all facets of reality and consciousness. 

[TheAvatarState]

19 hours ago, Shin said:

That being said, I don't think you can choose to pursue enlightenment, you're either in or not, and once you started to see the mind flaws, you can't really go back, there is a natural impulse to ascend.

This. It's never a matter of should or shouldn't. You're going to follow your natural impulses. 

As Leo had said, "Development AND awakening." Not one above or before the other. Temporarily one will take more importance, but overall, you must have both simultaneously!